why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of armo

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renacuajo3095
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why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of armo

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Postby renacuajo3095 » Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:50 am

why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of armor like zeruel did?
i know they are different angels but in my point of view ramiel could have been able to shoot his beam vertically (even though he only shot horizontally) so that it would go through all the levels of protection to get to the geofront, similar to zeruel did. from my point of view ramiel could have done it but maybe not, so the question is why ramiel didn't use his beam to destroy all the levels like zeruel did?

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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:43 pm

I think Ramiel genuinely can't look down lol.
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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:53 pm

So Google tells me someone asked the same question 7 years ago on Reddit and among the replies I see : "We never see it using the laser and the AT field at the same time", which I'm going to take at face value. Some Evangelion wiki notes Ramiel appears to/is designed/behaves more defensively than the Angels preceding him. Very much a sense of a slow and steady flying fortress. There's not a lot of in-universe data I remember (but surely someone will if so) for that except it has a very powerful AT field that is commented on.

I'd say "can't shoot down" is actually as good as any explanation, really, because who can anything about Angels biology at the end of the day ?

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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby Blockio » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:54 pm

I'm not generally a fan of "um akshually it was because it was needed for the story to work, Iamverysmart" kind of answers, but this is one of the cases where ultimately, it boils down to that. There's definitely ways to find an in-universe explanation post-hoc; the aforementioned firing angles, exclusivity of abilities and defensive nature would be some, a possible recharge time for another beam on that scale could be another, but ultimately they are just that, rationalizations made after the fact to explain away something.
I don't consider this a fault of the show, it's not an inconsistency that has any implications on the larger plot and I have a strong disliking of the pointing out any unexplained contrivance to make yourself feel smarter than the show brand of bad faith media criticism, but it's just a thing that you need to work around when talking about early Eva.
That being said, I am rather enjoying the theories proposed here, so if you have any more, by all means fire away
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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:07 pm

I mean we could go a level or two higher : You have Gaghiel and as far as we can tell it's purely an aquatic lifeform, so could it attack Tokyo-3 or make a play for Adam/Lilith elsewhere than during transit with the fleet ? Are the Angels biology really "designed" as ideal to attack the Geofront or are they just making do with what they have ? And I'd add, though I'm sure someone had a theory about that, how and when do Angels grow (we have that Volcano one gestating after all) ?

You have Angels with tools very specific to attack a bunker base and some others where the following steps are a little more obscure (Dirac Sea, the one breaking down Asuka... Plan to merge with the EVA unit and then go underground ?). There's a narrative escalation driven by the writing room for dramatic needs but in universe there's the sense each new Angel is generated ad hoc to try new methods of infiltration and learn from its predecessors (well... except Matarael, which is the odd duck of "actually kinda lame and a downgrade compared to predecessors").

Just musings which I'm sure someone studied way more and too much in depth in the past.

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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby nerv bae » Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:52 am

View Original Postrenacuajo3095 wrote:his

ahem

SPOILER: Show
Image

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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:57 am

I don't know if Ramiel can shoot his beam downwards. He's not a shape shifter like the 6th angel (his NTE counterpart). He's way more blockier, for lack of a better term and is literally a flying fortress of sorts. So, who knows?

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:ahem

Sorry for that in advance heh
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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Wed Jan 18, 2023 3:55 pm

Well NTE Ramiel doesn't beam downwards either that I remember.
She/He just really likes the drill !

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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:25 pm

Yeah. I have no excuses for the 6th angel, only Ramiel. It's like I said, the 6th angel has shapeshifting abilities that would probably make him able to shoot in any direction he wanted without too much effort. Ramiel however... I don't think so.
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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby Urlance Woolsbane » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:59 pm

I think this can be rationalized as a consequence of Ramiel's nigh invulnerability: It can afford to use a relatively delicate method of getting to the Geofront, thereby minimizing risk of harm to Lilith, because nothing short of Japan's combined electric output can harm it. Would a human use a flamethrower to end a rat-infestation?

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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:59 am

Do Angels really need to be delicate though ? The meteor one was going to obliterate Tokyo-3 and the nano one tried to initiate self destruct IIRC. It's a little silly but it feels that merging with Lilith is really a matter of chemical reaction, Adam and Lilith touch, kaboom, even if the Lilith Chamber and her body are damaged... Or maybe they were opening things up for another angel...

And if Ramiel can't shapeshift : that hole he drills seems a little small for him ! (Unless he planned to make contact with his drill).

Tangents aside, I think Ramiel being "the defensive one" as some sort of characterisation or design guideline works fairly well. Zeruel was clearly "the strength one".
Ramiel has to be engaged long distance, Zeruel up close. Ramiel 3rd one in the series, Zeruel is followed by three (including Kaworu) so not a perfect match but... Works well for those two but not angels fall as neatly in categories like that.

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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby exx » Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:54 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I'm not generally a fan of "um akshually it was because it was needed for the story to work, Iamverysmart" kind of answers, but this is one of the cases where ultimately, it boils down to that. There's definitely ways to find an in-universe explanation post-hoc; the aforementioned firing angles, exclusivity of abilities and defensive nature would be some, a possible recharge time for another beam on that scale could be another]
That being said, I am rather enjoying the theories proposed here, so if you have any more, by all means fire away

100% agree that this is one of the larger inconsistencies in the show. Having said that, I think Ramiel's beam just isn't powerful enough to penetrate the black moon and the slow drill combined with its fortress-like construction is a contingency for that. In the rebuilds, the drill is ramiel manipulating his form directly and his beam is FAR more powerful, but for main series I think his destructive power is overstated, compared to angels like Zeruel who was able to blow straight through 18 layers of armor. Also important to remember is that, other than Iruel and Kaworu (who infiltrate Eva, kaworu with the direct help of seele,) Ramiel's drill is the ONLY angel to physically enter the geofront, Zeruel was able to do so easily in a manner much more direct than the angels mentioned above.
This entire discussion also assumes that the angels strictly want to reach lilith as fast as possible... in reality, gaghiel goes after adam on the ship, and with angels like Arael and Leliel they don't appear to be in any rush to contact Lilith, despite being among the most powerful angels. In main series, Ramiel has one of the most "fixed" forms of all of the angels and is limited by that. He would have had to blow a hole large enough to drop his entire mass into terminal dogma, with the drill he can slowly poke down at it. As mentioned earlier, I just don't think his beam would be powerful enough to carve a path for his entire body.
Love this thread, it's crazy to me that one of the largest contrivances in the show is something as trivial and inconsequential as this.
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Re: why did ramiel start drilling into the ground to get to the geofront and not fire his beam to destroy all levels of

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:20 pm

The Angels do seem to beeline to Tokyo-3 and Nerv HQ... mostly (and even materialize right in the vicinity, often). I think the contrivance is moreso their general attitude, but that falls squarely in "nebulous beings", the behaviour is consistent enough though for every point you have a couple of exceptions.
I don't know it's the biggest contrivance of the show, I'd probably choose the whole Adam / Lilith switcheroo myself. I think the show skates its way out of making it a massive hole when you're watching it (like most of the inconsistencies), but this is the most central confusing point.


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