Also Lilith is missing her legs in this version as well.

There is also this imagery during N3I were Unit 01 shows energy wings, similar to those shown in 2I flashback (the ones the Adams have) which makes me think this time around Unit 01 has some conmection with the Adams.

But on the other hand we can see in 1.11 that Lilith has a scar on her chest (probable indicating she had her core removed and pit inside Unit 01).

Then in 2.22 when Unit 01 gets its chest exposed during the 10th angel fight, we can see its core IS a real one, not a constructed core like what Unit 02 was shown to have.

So I still am not sure what to think about Unit 01's true nature.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:Then in 2.22 when Unit 01 gets its chest exposed during the 10th angel fight, we can see its core IS a real one, not a constructed core like what Unit 02 was shown to have.

That's interesting: how was Unit 02 shown to have a constructed core?

nerv bae wrote:

AsukaShikinami10#938531 wrote:Then in 2.22 when Unit 01 gets its chest exposed during the 10th angel fight, we can see its core IS a real one, not a constructed core like what Unit 02 was shown to have.

That's interesting: how was Unit 02 shown to have a constructed core?

I think AsukaShikinami10 refers to the scene in 2.0 where Unit 02 is being stocked inside an IPEA vault (as having more that three Evas in a given country goes against the Vatican Treaty), and we can see it's core separated from the body:

But I'm not sure if it means that it's a purely artificial construct, or if it's just a protective encasing for when it's exposed and that underneath it's the same kind of red orb than with the Angels or Unit 01.

Notices that the inside walls of the vault has similar containment "boxes" than inside the Wunder's engine where EVA-01 is in 3.0 and Thrice, which could mean that even the cores of non-awakened Evas can be toxic to humans:



As for EVA-01's wings of light, it could simply that this is a general power/trait of the Seeds of Life when they are awakened.

ElMariachi wrote:I think AsukaShikinami10 refers to the scene in 2.0 where Unit 02 is being stocked inside an IPEA vault (as having more that three Evas in a given country goes against the Vatican Treaty), and we can see it's core separated from the body:

SPOILER: Show

But I'm not sure if it means that it's a purely artificial construct, or if it's just a protective encasing for when it's exposed and that underneath it's the same kind of red orb than with the Angels or Unit 01.

Oh duh, yeah. I forgot that Unit 02's separated core looks like it has a protective casing, or is even a completely man-made machine. I tried to shed more light on this by looking at Unit 01's core bursting free at the end of 2.0:


If the material blown away from Unit 01's core looked like the surface of Unit 02's core, we could say that they both shared a protective casing covering a regular core, but, it doesn't. So, we can't say anything about Unit 02's core based on this sequence from 2.0.

Next I looked at 1.0's simulator:


This simulator puts the pilot through the LCL-bath entry plug sequence without a regular core. Therefore, we know cores aren’t necessary for piloting. Also, in this scene Ritsuko says "Each Angel has a part that we call its core," which arguably exclusively associates regular cores with Angels, not Evangelions.

So uhhhhh only Mark 06 and Unit 01 have regular (angelic) cores derived from the 1st and 2nd Angels, while Unit 02, the other Evangelions, and the simulator have man-made machine cores?

Konja7 wrote:

AsukaShikinami10#938348 wrote:I still have to decipher the why the Angels were aiming to reach Lilith in the first place. Were they trying to kill her once and for all or were they trying to do something else with her?

The only instance we see an Angel reaching Lillith, we see that through Mark.06 the twelfth Angel beheaded Lillith and fused with her body. For what purpose?

I still don't understand if they were trying to kill her or join her to accomplish a different goal we still don't know of (or at least I still don't get it).

In 3.0+1.0, it was mentioned that the Dead Sea Scrolls shows humanity two options: "Being destroyed by the Angels" or "Replace the Angels". The later includes humanity becoming beings with Fruit of Life but without Fruit of Knowledge.

This implies that the Angels's goal was to destroy humanity. So, it's easy to assume they try to reach Lilith to achieve this goal (maybe throught a Third Impact that will destroy humanity).

However, although Mark-06 and 12th Angel were involved in the Third Impact between 2.0 and 3.0, this Third Impact seems to be following SEELE's goal since humans were "evolving" into new beings.

It's mentioned Mark-06 was turned into an autonomous model by the Lilins. So, I guess SEELE were controlling Mark-06 and the 12th Angel.


PS: I assume Mak-06 beheaded Lilith to take control of the Third Impact and start the "evolution" of humanity.

I think Third Impact worked more or less like this:

1. Eva-01 awakens and opens the Doors of Guf, setting itself as the blueprint for the Eva infinities in the eyes of Lilith (this is Near Third Impact, end of 2.0).
2. The autonomous Eva Mark.06 descends into Dogma (2.0 post-credit preview) and pulls the Longinus spear from Lilith, re-activating the up until that moment dormant source of life. As such, it immediately opens a Door of Guf somewhere and gazillions of Eva infinities (new life forms) start pouring out, made of core (kind of like we see in 3.0.+1.0), but with their heads still attached (just like Eva-01 after which they're modelled).
3. To fulfill the covenant (i.e., abandon the Fruit of Knolwdge), Eva Mark.06 beheads Lilith, causing the infinities, still "bound to their creator" to lose their heads too (this is the flashback we see in 3.0+1.0). Not clear why Mark.06 needs to fuse itself at the neck stump though...
4. Evas 02 and 08 sortie to stop Third Impact, carrying the remaining spear (Cassius) that was impaled in thge dormant Eva-01. For some reason, they need both spears to stop the impact, but the Longinus one is on the floor at Lilith's feet, out of reach without exposing themselves to the all-powerfull Lilith+Mark.06 entity.
5. Kaji boards the VTOL and goes on a suicide mission to act as a decoy/distraction, so while the Mark.06 is busy chasing it, Asuka and Mari can recover the second spear. Kaji is shot down, and the two NERV(Wille?) Evas stop third impact using the two spears, more or less realizing what we see at Dogma in 3.0

Still Unexplained:

1. How/why did the Lilith head morph into Yui/Rei and bore its way up the infitiy-filled shaft?
2. How/when was the Lilith containment barrier set up, so that Asuka and Mari (or whoever pinned the spears) could escape?
3. What happened to the Moon?
4. How did NERV headquarters get up there, anb buried in the reverse-pyramid?

DantesInferno wrote:I think Third Impact worked more or less like this:

My theory about the Third Impact is pretty similar.

I think the N3I has an effect on Lilith, which could be hinted by Lilith's face at the end of 2.0. Due to this effect, automated Mark-06 taking the Spear of Longinus from Lilith was enough to awaken her and start the Third Impact (instead of only recovering her legs like NGE).

I think automated Mark-06 needs to fuse with Lilith's body (after beheading her) to take control of the Third Impact and start the humanity's evolution that SEELE wants.

I have similar theories too.

I think that Mark. 06 is born from Lilith, just like Unit-01, only due to their similar appearances (both have a horn for example). Mark. 06 looks like a darker twin brother of Unit-01. Also, I think that's why Mark. 06 could merge and control Lilith. SEELE may have created it to be their own artificial Lilith.

My take on NTI is that it followed Gendo's scenario, using an awakened Unit-01 (based on Lilith's genetic material) with an angel core absorbed (which includes the fruit of life) and possibly Lilith's soul (if we assume that Rei is Lilith in this continuity too). That way, it could force humanity's evolution to a new lifeform that has both fruits and would supplant "The Gods". Gendo's scenario always intended to discard the original Lilith in favor of Unit-01. We also see that in the Fourth Impact, despite being a completely different ritual.

Now regarding the actual Third Impact, it was a SEELE scenario. First, they nullified Gendo's try of a Third Impact by impaling Unit-01 in the post-credits of 2.0. Considering that it was a spear of Cassius, it could possibly mean that form is exclusive to Lilith and its derived Evangelions. Sometime later, Mark. 06 captured the Twelfth Angel and was made Autonomous to be fully obedient to SEELE. All the conditions were met to follow SEELE's forced evolution of humanity. Mark. 06 beheaded Lilith, hijacking its body to reprogram the entire humanity to obtain the fruit of life, which is possible due to the Twelfth Angel still being inside of Mark. 06/Lilith. What I mean is that the angel's core was used as a blueprint for humanity's fruit of life. But, as we know, NERV/WILLE was able to prevent this plan at the last minute, leaving the planet full of replicas of Unit-01. Also, just like others pointed out, the beheading of Lilith possibly removed the fruit of knowledge from "humanity's blueprint"

Raikyu wrote:I have similar theories too.

I think that Mark. 06 is born from Lilith, just like Unit-01, only due to their similar appearances (both have a horn for example). Mark. 06 looks like a darker twin brother of Unit-01. Also, I think that's why Mark. 06 could merge and control Lilith. SEELE may have created it to be their own artificial Lilith.

My take on NTI is that it followed Gendo's scenario, using an awakened Unit-01 (based on Lilith's genetic material) with an angel core absorbed (which includes the fruit of life) and possibly Lilith's soul (if we assume that Rei is Lilith in this continuity too). That way, it could force humanity's evolution to a new lifeform that has both fruits and would supplant "The Gods". Gendo's scenario always intended to discard the original Lilith in favor of Unit-01. We also see that in the Fourth Impact, despite being a completely different ritual.

Now regarding the actual Third Impact, it was a SEELE scenario. First, they nullified Gendo's try of a Third Impact by impaling Unit-01 in the post-credits of 2.0. Considering that it was a spear of Cassius, it could possibly mean that form is exclusive to Lilith and its derived Evangelions. Sometime later, Mark. 06 captured the Twelfth Angel and was made Autonomous to be fully obedient to SEELE. All the conditions were met to follow SEELE's forced evolution of humanity. Mark. 06 beheaded Lilith, hijacking its body to reprogram the entire humanity to obtain the fruit of life, which is possible due to the Twelfth Angel still being inside of Mark. 06/Lilith. What I mean is that the angel's core was used as a blueprint for humanity's fruit of life. But, as we know, NERV/WILLE was able to prevent this plan at the last minute, leaving the planet full of replicas of Unit-01. Also, just like others pointed out, the beheading of Lilith possibly removed the fruit of knowledge from "humanity's blueprint"

Your points and Konja's make a lot of sense, I agree too.

There was this theory on YouTube I think (and I mentioned it before here) that explained that the Adams and the Adams-based Evas turned the spears into Longinus upon contact, and Lilith and Lilith-based Evas into Cassius.

That's why, from the point of view of the lilim, the Cassius spear, associated with the lilim's creator (Lilith), is the spear of "hope", and Longinus, associated with her antagonists (the Adams), is the spear of "dispair" (this also suggests that it was the Adams that impaled Lilith to begin with, hence the spear having Longinus form).

So when Evas 02 and 08 used the two spears on the Lilith/Mark.06 entity, the one brought from above the ground reverted to Longinus, since both of those Evas
are Adams-based. Similarly, the spears turn into Cassius when wielded by Eva-01 and Mark.06.

One thing I don't understand is why there is a massive swarm of headless, Eva-01-like infinities at the Former South Pole (Second Impact Ground Zero), making up layer 2 of the L-field: If they were created at Second Impact, there's no way they could be modelled in the likeness of Eva-01. And if they were created during Third Impact, why are they so far away from Ground Zero? Perhaps Third Impact remotely (and temporarily) activated the Gates of Hell?

At this point, I think we've figured out enough about A3I that we are in more need of an "Evangelion 0.0" explaining what happened at Second Impact than of an "Evangelion 2.0+1.0" explaining A3I and the timeskip

DantesInferno wrote:There was this theory on YouTube I think (and I mentioned it before here) that explained that the Adams and the Adams-based Evas turned the spears into Longinus upon contact, and Lilith and Lilith-based Evas into Cassius.

This is an interesting theory, but I doubt it's correct. If this was correct, Kaworu would know and wouldn't have planned to repair the world using Eva-13 along the Spears of Cassius and Longinus. Not to mention that I still think Mark-06 was created using Adam's body.

I have a theory that the Evas 00-05 were created using Lilith's body, while Mark-06 is created using Adam's body (that's why Mark-06 would be considered the True Eva).

DantesInferno wrote:At this point, I think we've figured out enough about A3I that we are in more need of an "Evangelion 0.0" explaining what happened at Second Impact than of an "Evangelion 2.0+1.0" explaining A3I and the timeskip

I think we still need an "Evangelion 2.0+1.0" to clarify things about the A3I and the role of the characters in that story.

In itself, it will be difficult they have a story dedicated to the events of the Second Impact, since there is almost no known character for that story.

DantesInferno wrote:Your points and Konja's make a lot of sense, I agree too.

There was this theory on YouTube I think (and I mentioned it before here) that explained that the Adams and the Adams-based Evas turned the spears into Longinus upon contact, and Lilith and Lilith-based Evas into Cassius.

That's why, from the point of view of the lilim, the Cassius spear, associated with the lilim's creator (Lilith), is the spear of "hope", and Longinus, associated with her antagonists (the Adams), is the spear of "dispair" (this also suggests that it was the Adams that impaled Lilith to begin with, hence the spear having Longinus form).

One of the spears shown during the 2I flash-back in 2.0 is implied to be the Cassius (the one at the forefront, it has a smooth handle, unlike the three others which have the "spiral" handles of the Longinus), and there are no indication that Lilith was in Antarctica.

Personally I think that the Occam's Razor answer about Mark.06 is simply that he's one of the Adams that was blown up to orbit alongside its spear (which was a Cassius) during 2I and ended crashing on the Moon. There even was a cut shot during the 2I flashback that showed that the blood splash on the Moon came from the place of 2I, which since the giant on the Moon is seen in the middle of it (see the last scene of 1.0 when Kaworu wakes up) pretty much confirms that it's one of the Adams that was ejected with that blood splash.
And sure Anno and Co removed that shot, but they didn't gave any other explanation that seems more plausible.

ElMariachi wrote:One of the spears shown during the 2I flash-back in 2.0 is implied to be the Cassius (the one at the forefront, it has a smooth handle, unlike the three others which have the "spiral" handles of the Longinus), and there are no indication that Lilith was in Antarctica.

I didn't catch any difference in the handles... will take a second (or two-thousandth? ) look.

Regarding Lilith in Antarctica, yeah, we don't have any reason to think she was there. But then again we have the "artificial recreation of Lilith" in 3.0+1.0, which I think refers to the four ships/Adams' total of 12 wings of light, so who knows... There's a lot we don't know about 2I... If the Adams and spears where "left at the Golgotha Object by someone"... How id they make it into Antarctica in order to participate in 2I? Or perhaps it's the other way around, and the Golgotha Object, the Adams, and the spears where all initially in Antarctica (perhaps buried in the ice, where the Katsuragi expedition found them), and then the G.O. got "blown away" into negative space as a result of 2I?

We still have no idea of when/why/by whom Lilith was stabbed. We do have on screen confirmation that the spears turn into the Longinus-fork configuration upon being wielded by Eva-13, and Cassius upon being wielded by Eva-01. Of course, it could be a coincidence and the transformation caused by something entirely different...

ElMariachi wrote:Personally I think that the Occam's Razor answer about Mark.06 is simply that he's one of the Adams that was blown up to orbit alongside its spear (which was a Cassius) during 2I and ended crashing on the Moon.

I'm not sure Mark.06 being blown away to the Moon from 2I is very "Occam Razor-y"... all we see is that it is being built/retrofitted there. I used to think the Mark.06 construction site was actually digging site, but that was me mistaking the white board fence around the site (and its shadow) with a rectangular hole.

ElMariachi wrote:There even was a cut shot during the 2I flashback that showed that the blood splash on the Moon came from the place of 2I, which since the giant on the Moon is seen in the middle of it (see the last scene of 1.0 when Kaworu wakes up) pretty much confirms that it's one of the Adams that was ejected with that blood splash.
And sure Anno and Co removed that shot, but they didn't gave any other explanation that seems more plausible.

I would be sold on this theory if the cut scene explicitly included Mark.06 being blown into the Moon. I can't say either option is 100% certain, but it is very possible that the blood/LCL splash coincides with the spear's landing location, as you said, but the Mark.06 on the other hand was simply built (anew) nearby, just for the sake of convenience (so that it could take the spear back to Earth right away).

---

Konja7 wrote:This is an interesting theory, but I doubt it's correct. If this was correct, Kaworu would know and wouldn't have planned to repair the world using Eva-13 along the Spears of Cassius and Longinus. Not to mention that I still think Mark-06 was created using Adam's body.

Yes, that is one big problem I thought about too. Kaworu should have known. The way the 3.0 dialogue plays, it feels more like both spears where already in the "wrong" configuration before Eva-13 grabbed them.

Konja7 wrote:I have a theory that the Evas 00-05 were created using Lilith's body, while Mark-06 is created using Adam's body (that's why Mark-06 would be considered the True Eva).

That's a fresh and interesting take. Of course, the "true evangelion" line could refer to something else... Fuyutsuki says "actual God instead of a fake one". I always took this to be aligned with "having the Fruit of Life in addition to the Fruit of Knowledge", but who knows...

Konja7 wrote:I think we still need an "Evangelion 2.0+1.0" to clarify things about the A3I and the role of the characters in that story.

Yes, indeed. I was talking strictly about impact dynamics I guess. But I also want to know what's the deal with the donkey! (and Kaworu running the show)

Konja7 wrote:In itself, it will be difficult they have a story dedicated to the events of the Second Impact, since there is almost no known character for that story.

Yes, way too prequel-y to stand on its own within a franchise that's very reliant on the original characters...

DantesInferno wrote:We still have no idea of when/why/by whom Lilith was stabbed. We do have on screen confirmation that the spears turn into the Longinus-fork configuration upon being wielded by Eva-13, and Cassius upon being wielded by Eva-01. Of course, it could be a coincidence and the transformation caused by something entirely different...

I think a coincidence is the most likely option.

In 3.0, the fact that the Spears have changed is highlighted as both important and alarming to Kaworu. Therefore, I am sure that both spears transforming into Longinus would be related to that change. Not to mention that the story never tries to imply the Eva-13 transform the Spears in Longinus with its touch (Kaworu's plan implies this isn't the case).

DantesInferno wrote:Yes, that is one big problem I thought about too. Kaworu should have known. The way the 3.0 dialogue plays, it feels more like both spears where already in the "wrong" configuration before Eva-13 grabbed them.

Yeah. Kaworu says "the two Spears have changed shape to resemble to resemble each other". This change in the Spears should be important for the events that are about to happen.

That said, Kaworu saying both Spears changed is weird. I mean, when Kaworu said this phrase, he could only see two Spears with Longinus forks, so he could only know one Spear was changed.

Konja7 wrote:Yeah. Kaworu says "the two Spears have changed shape to resemble to resemble each other". This change in the Spears should be important for the events that are about to happen.

That said, Kaworu saying both Spears changed is weird. I mean, when Kaworu said this phrase, he could only see two Spears with Longinus forks, so he could only know one Spear was changed.

I think maybe he's not familiar with the "javelin" form, and was expecting the Longinus one of the two to be in the fork configuration...(after all, that's what the very same spear looked like when it was impaling Lilith, before A3I) ?

So indeed, "both of them changed" and "now they match".

But then soon after he comes to some realisation and utters his iconic phrase:

Kaworu wrote:そういうことか、リリン

So if he indeed isn't aware of the Longinus-javelin variant, then it's hard to tell what exactly he figured out -beyond just "Gendo fooled me!"- and how...

DantesInferno wrote:I think maybe he's not familiar with the "javelin" form, and was expecting the Longinus one of the two to be in the fork configuration...(after all, that's what the very same spear looked like when it was impaling Lilith, before A3I) ?

So indeed, "both of them changed" and "now they match".

I'm sorry. English isn't my main language, so I make a mistake in my previous comment. When I said "fork", I really wanted to say "handle".

I though Kaworu could only see the handle of the Spears (which were Longinus's handle) when he mentioned the change of the Spears, then he should have only noticed the change of the Spear of Cassius.

However, I've seen the scene again. Now, I think the Spears impaling Lilith are visible enough that Kaworu could notice both Spears have take the "Javelin" form. So, that's why he mentioned both Spears have changed.


PS: I think the "Javelin" form Spears having the Longinus's handle implies these will become Spears of Longinus when any Eva takes them.

DantesInferno wrote:

ElMariachi#938553 wrote:One of the spears shown during the 2I flash-back in 2.0 is implied to be the Cassius (the one at the forefront, it has a smooth handle, unlike the three others which have the "spiral" handles of the Longinus), and there are no indication that Lilith was in Antarctica.

I didn't catch any difference in the handles... will take a second (or two-thousandth? ) look.

I had to convince myself of this too, last month:

nerv bae wrote:Huh, yeah, I learn something new about these movies every day. A clearer screencap:

SPOILER: Show

Interesting contrast with (albeit non-canon) UYCTM:

SPOILER: Show

Konja7 wrote:I'm sorry. English isn't my main language, so I make a mistake in my previous comment. When I said "fork", I really wanted to say "handle".

I though Kaworu could only see the handle of the Spears (which were Longinus's handle) when he mentioned the change of the Spears, then he should have only noticed the change of the Spear of Cassius.

However, I've seen the scene again. Now, I think the Spears impaling Lilith are visible enough that Kaworu could notice both Spears have take the "Javelin" form. So, that's why he mentioned both Spears have changed.


PS: I think the "Javelin" form Spears having the Longinus's handle implies these will become Spears of Longinus when any Eva takes them.

No, I got your meaning that the Cassius spear has a different, smoother handle (in addition to the ends being different too); I never really noticed until now

(One can only wonder what that could mean. The four spears flying around are somewhat reminiscent of the two Longinus spears ejected from Eva-13 after it awakends and blows away Eva-02's arms and the stop-signal plug in 3.0.+1.0... but maybe I'm just grasping at straws here... On second thought, the 2I flashback makes it look like they're being blown away by an explosion of some sort...)

And yes, both spears should have been fully visible to Kaworu (save for the tips sunken underneath Lilith's skin, of course), given that Eva-13 descends into Dogma from above (although Kaworu's confusion begins once Eva-13 is on the ground, for some reason...).

DantesInferno wrote:And yes, both spears should have been fully visible to Kaworu (save for the tips sunken underneath Lilith's skin, of course), given that Eva-13 descends into Dogma from above (although Kaworu's confusion begins once Eva-13 is on the ground, for some reason...).

When Eva-13 was descending to Dogma, it was too far away from Lilith. Then, Kaworu couldn't notice the change of the Spears yet.

As Eva-13 get closer to Lilith, Kaworu begins to notice the Spears have changed. I guess the Spears are visible enough from the ground.

DantesInferno wrote:
Regarding Lilith in Antarctica, yeah, we don't have any reason to think she was there. But then again we have the "artificial recreation of Lilith" in 3.0+1.0, which I think refers to the four ships/Adams' total of 12 wings of light, so who knows... There's a lot we don't know about 2I... If the Adams and spears where "left at the Golgotha Object by someone"... How id they make it into Antarctica in order to participate in 2I? Or perhaps it's the other way around, and the Golgotha Object, the Adams, and the spears where all initially in Antarctica (perhaps buried in the ice, where the Katsuragi expedition found them), and then the G.O. got "blown away" into negative space as a result of 2I?

I guessed by "artificial recreation of Lilith" he was referring to Eva-01, since Gendo made clear that it was all part of his plan and then takes the unit with him into the Minus Space. But then, I had no clue what else he could be talking about.

The remaining Units seem to be more related to Adams than Lilith: Opfer Type Evas (Adams' Vessels), Eva-13 (One of the surviving Adams) and the 4 Ships (Mari calls them Adams). Uni-02 and Unit-08, are not stated what they are, but we know that they were not relevent for NERV's plan, so they couldn't be the "Lilith" that Fuyutsuki was talking about. The only Unit remaining, that was essential for the ritual, was Unit-01which makes sense if we assume that it is based on Lilith, just like in the original continuity. It is also stated that Unit-01 is the opposite of Eva 13 (Unit of Hope and Unit of despair) which can be a clue for their roles: Adam(s) Unit and Lilith Unit

Another possibility is Evangelion Imaginary, but that one seems more complicated to understand.