More On The Spears...

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Cola-09 » Mon May 02, 2022 9:22 am

I guess we really need 2.5 for closure haha.

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Postby nerv bae » Mon May 02, 2022 9:32 am

Yeah; at a minimum 2.5 should show us how Cassius gets out of Unit 01 and into Lilith (and possibly into Mark 06) and how Longinus gets out of Lilith and then right back in (and also possibly into Mark 06).

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Postby Konja7 » Mon May 02, 2022 10:12 am

View Original PostZoop wrote:Hmm interesting idea, it would explain why Kaworu is so baffled that they are the same. He needs both spears because they work complementary. Having two of the same spears, is like having just one.
Mystery still remains of course how that spear apparently changed ...


However, the two Spears of Longinus still seem to work for the Fourth Impact in the same way than the Black Moon Spear.

The Fourth Impacts in 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 have similar elements:

- The 13th Angel (the trigger) inside Eva-13
- Eva-13 absorbing an Angel
- Two Spears of Longinus / Black Moon Spear


I think Kaworu was baffled, because he doesn't expect the two Spears to be the same and he doesn't know what will happen. The Fourth Impact in 3.0 was a surprise for Kaworu, since he didn't expect to become the 13th Angel.

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Postby DantesInferno » Wed May 04, 2022 2:26 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I suspect the Black Moon Spear and Gaius Spear are more powerful than Cassius or Longinus individally. That's why Gendo only need one Black Moon Spear and Shinji only needs one Gaius Spear for their goals in 3.0+1.0

We should consider the Spear of Longinus and the Spear of Cassius seem to be complementary at some level. So, both Spears seem to ne needed for an Impact (both being Spears of Longinus in 3.0 doesn't affect this).


Well, Gendo does say that both spears "mutually/each become trigger and sacrifice" (translation mine, from memory) before they go into the Eva Imaginary.

And yes, in 3.0 the spears aren't actually "used", so it doesn't matter what type they are. But Gendo does sound a little amazed when the spear Shinji/Eva-01 reclaimed morphs into Cassius in 3.0+1.0... Who knows.

And yeah, it is unclear what "type" or "name" the Moon spear(s) belong(s) to: is it Cassius and/or Longinus (again, the shape reminds of the ultimate fate of the 2 remaining spears just before stabbing Imaginary), or is it somethig else? I lean towards the latter, since when Wille copies the method later, they come up with a new type of spear themselves (but of course, that can be attributed to "Wille's/humanity's will" or some such nonsense we are fed... :D ).


View Original PostKonja7 wrote:However, the two Spears of Longinus still seem to work for the Fourth Impact in the same way than the Black Moon Spear.


Do they? They aren't stabbed into any Lilith-like entity; they aren't used in any way reminiscent of A3I or Another (4th) Impact.

Only the Eva-13 awakening (and consumming the 12th angel) seems to be relevant to opening the gates / creating the rainbow vortex in the sky.

Slightly off topic, I believe the vortex is merely a visual manifestation of a strong enough L-field, the same as anti-gravity (see: Eva-01 starts floating in the air when the vortex first forms in 2.0; the train cars and power towers floating outside Village-03, the permanent vortex around Antarctica, independent of the Gates, which are long sice closed), and the Gates opening is a consequence of taking that further to 11. so, in order to open the Gates you need to create an L-field way stronger that the minimum needed to see a vortex materialize... (not sure how the spears fit in with this theory though)

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I think Kaworu was baffled, because he doesn't expect the two Spears to be the same and he doesn't know what will happen. The Fourth Impact in 3.0 was a surprise for Kaworu, since he didn't expect to become the 13th Angel.


Yes, but (again), from his dialogue, it is implied that not only is he surprised that they both look the same; he doesn't recognize the javelin-shaped spears as Longinuss either.

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:Yeah; at a minimum 2.5 should show us how Cassius gets out of Unit 01 and into Lilith (and possibly into Mark 06) and how Longinus gets out of Lilith and then right back in (and also possibly into Mark 06).


I've said this a million times, but I want both 2.5, and 0.5, describing what the heck happened during 2I, and what the Katsuragi expedition went to do there in the first place...

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Postby Konja7 » Wed May 04, 2022 6:24 am

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:Do they? They aren't stabbed into any Lilith-like entity; they aren't used in any way reminiscent of A3I or Another (4th) Impact.

Only the Eva-13 awakening (and consumming the 12th angel) seems to be relevant to opening the gates / creating the rainbow vortex in the sky.


If only Eva-13 awakening and consuming an Angel were necessary for the Fourth Impact, Gendo wouldn't need the Black Moon Spear(s) in 3.0+1.0.

That said, it's possible Gendo doesn't need the Spears to open the Gates of Guf, but he needs these to start the "purification" of the souls. After all, in 3.0+1.0, the "purification" of the souls started right after the Black Moon Spear was absorbed by the Gates of Guf.

I think the Fourth Impact wasn't really complete in 3.0, that's why the "purification" of the souls didn't start. If the Gates of Guf weren't closed in 3.0, I assume the two Spears of Longinus would be absorbed by the Gates and start the "purification" of the souls, which was SEELE's plan.



PS: The spears of Longinus and Cassius don't seem to be used to start the Actual Third Impact. In that case, the Spears of Longinus and Cassius seem to be used to impal Lilith and stop the Third Impact, that's why the Spears hadn't dissapeared.

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Postby DantesInferno » Wed May 04, 2022 6:58 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:If only Eva-13 awakening and consuming an Angel were necessary for the Fourth Impact, Gendo wouldn't need the Black Moon Spear(s) in 3.0+1.0.


No, the spears are necessaary of course (we see that in 3.0+1.0); it's just that the event depicted near the end of 3.0 is the "prelude to 4th Impact" (Kaworu even refers to it in a similar fashion). It is safe to assume that if it had proceeded unimpeded, it should have more or less looked like what we see in the next movie (this doesn't explain why Fuyutsuki laments that "this is almost what Seele wanted", when we later learn that they still had to go all the way to 2I ground zero and have the four ships span their wings of light to get it done. But I imagine Anno didn't have it all figured out the same way 10 years ago, and changes happened along the way. I mean, Look at the trailers!).

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:That said, it's possible Gendo doesn't need the Spears to open the Gates of Guf, but he needs these to start the "purification" of the souls. After all, in 3.0+1.0, the "purification" of the souls started right after the Black Moon Spear was absorbed by the Gates of Guf.


May be. My take is that the 12 wings of the four ships make up the "Artificial recreation of Lilith", necessary to spawn new life. Another ingredient is the 9th angel, needed as a sacrifice to provide the "blueprint" for the Fruit of Life of all the new infinities. Finally, the (Black Moon) spears turn the Gates of Hell into the Gates of Guf, from which the new life forms emerge. It is safe to assume that something similar happened during A3I, but with the actual Lilith instead.
But Gendo says that "the core matter that makes up the Eva infinities is the souls materialized" or something along those lines, and at the end those revert back to the lilim (body AND soul), so it's not entirely clear at which point the souls are actually "purified". I think anything that results in you losing your head (Fruit of Knowlege) pretty much counts as "purification", given that it's the possession of the FoK what makes the lilim "impure". And the "lilim+" (Asuka, Shinji, Mari) that are immune to the L-field and can walk the red Earth unharmed would seem to be "purified" in some way too...

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I think the Fourth Impact wasn't really complete in 3.0, that's why the "purification" of the souls didn't start. If the Gates of Guf weren't closed in 3.0, I assume the two Spears of Longinus would be absorbed by the Gates and start the "purification" of the souls, which was SEELE's plan.


It's quite possible. But like I said above, it is very possible that Anno made changes along the way and one of the reasons we didn't get definitive answers is that it would have been impossible to retcon 3.0 to a 100% without contradictions (and also that these details don't really matter to the overall plot, of course).


View Original PostKonja7 wrote:PS: The spears of Longinus and Cassius don't seem to be used to start the Actual Third Impact. In that case, the Spears of Longinus and Cassius seem to be used to impal Lilith and stop the Third Impact, that's why the Spears hadn't dissapeared.


We really don't know. It is true that they're not stabbed at Lilith; I take back that that might be necessary: after all, they're used against the Gates (not "Lilith") in 3.0+1.0. But the point stands that in 3.0. they're not (yet) used at all (save to stop the event, against Eva-13).

All in all, we only see one instance where the spears are actually used to start an impact: Another (4th) Impact (let's set Additional Impact aside for now, since it's so different and out of the original plan). More often than not, they're used to stop stuff that's already ongoing, if we go by N3I, the aftermatch of A3I, and what Kaworu does to Eva-13 to try and stop "Prelude-4 Impact".

And we have no idea how the other(?) four spears played during 2I (only that are " blown away" in the flashback scene)

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Postby nerv bae » Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:42 pm

Earlier this year in this topic I tried to account for all of the spears a few times:

6 spears  SPOILER: Show
View Original Postnerv bae wrote:That's an interesting question. Has anyone thought about whether the 8th Angel's spear-arms can help us count the six spears Gendo identifies in 3+1?

Here's a post I made counting spears over in the fifth cross topic for some reason:

nerv bae wrote:(Hoping the moderators will excuse this double-post, given the time interval.)
Was thinking recently about the six spears, and whether we see all of them.

Here is the last appearance of Longinus and Cassius before spearing Eva Imaginary together:

Image

That makes two spears. Here is the last appearance of the two Black Moon spears before piercing the Gates of Hell together:

Image

That makes four spears. Here's a fifth spear:

Image

I think I've seen a screenshot of this purple Tree of Life object here on EGF somewhere, but I don't recall a discussion about it actually being speared. But it is, right? The equivalent red structure in EoE is shown to be formed by Eva 01 getting speared:

Image

I don't believe this purple Tree is shown anywhere else in Shin besides this short scene around the 1:37:00 mark. The scene pans down and shows the purple Tree's base extending beyond the horizon:

Image

Much like the fifth cross!

Image

Should we infer that the fifth spear and the fifth cross combine to form the purple Tree of Life?

That makes five spears. The sixth spear we see is Gaius:

Image

In the predecessor cross-and-spear topic, linked in the first post of this topic, Gaius was rejected as one of the six spears as follows:


Under this logic, Gaius would be a seventh spear and we still have an unseen sixth spear. But I will try to refute this logic: There are not seven spears, only six, because Gaius was made from Wunder's Spinal Linkage System material that's just as unique as the Black Moon material used to make the Black Moon spears. But why would Wunder's Spinal material be unique, when there are not one but four ships in the Guardians of Guf class? Two reasons:

1) We do not see any Spinal material in the Erlösung, Erbsünde, or Gebet. We see it only in the Wunder (i.e., Buβe).
2) The Buβe plaque establishes that Wunder is the lead ship of the Guardians of Guf class:

Image

Construing "lead ship" as "first built and most important," it's reasonable to assume Buβe got all the Spinal material leaving none for the remaining three ships. Gendo's error was either in not knowing that the sixth spear resided as potential in Wunder's Spinal material (unlikely because he used the Key and knew literally everything) or in underestimating Ritsuko's ability to figure out that potential (more likely).

(As a final off-topic aside, in the spirit of counting things I think it's interesting that there are four Adams, ships, etc., and three spine segments shown in Wunder's Spinal Linkage System plus a fourth spine in the Key.)

In summary, the six spears I counted there were:

1) Longinus
2) Cassius
3) Black Moon spear #1
4) Black Moon spear #2
5) Purple Tree of Life spear
6) Gaius

Folks weren't convinced by 5 and 6. What if we replace 5 and 6 with the 8th Angel arms instead? E.g.,

1) Longinus
2) Cassius
3) Black Moon spear #1
4) Black Moon spear #2
5) 8th Angel arm #1
6) 8th Angel arm #2
12 spears  SPOILER: Show
nerv bae wrote:Mmmm, yeah, so on that basis we have:

Gendo's six spears:

1) Longinus
2) Cassius
3) Second impact spear #1
4) Second impact spear #2
5) Second impact spear #3
6) Second impact spear #4

Manufactured spears:

7) Black moon spear #1
8) Black moon spear #2
9) Gaius

Things that look like spears but aren't:

10) Purple Tree of Life spear
11) 8th Angel arm spears
12) Mark44A spears
Haha, yay, 12 (types of) spears in a story that has 12 (ish) angels. :woohoo:

(I'd still like to see a good explanation for the Purple Tree of Life and its apparent spear.)

Recently, the following posts from the NTE quality containment topic got me thinking about this again; in particular their observation that Impacts consume pairs of spears:

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
ElMariachi wrote:Or maybe impaling itself with the spears was programmed into Unit 13 as part of the ritual of Fourth Impact, like how Mark.06/Lilith remains was seen impaled by spears in 3.0, how Additional Impact happened by impaling the spears in Imaginary Lilith and how the restoration of the world happened by Unit 01 impaling itself with the spear of Gaius (or back to EoE, how Third Impact started when the MP-Evas impaled themselves with their spears).

Seems more plausible to me than Kaworu somehow regaining control of EVA-13, but only its arms, out of nowhere.

In Rebuild, the Spears dissapear when they are used as part of the ritual in an Impact. This happened in the Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0 and the Additional Impact (it's implied to have happened in the Second Impact too), but this doesn't happened when Eva-13 was impaled by the two Spears of Longinus. Not to mention that Imaginary Lilth wasn't really impaled by the Spears, these were absorbed by Imaginary Lilith to start the Additional Impact.

Also, we could compare the Fourth Impacts in 3.0 and 3.0+1.0. In 3.0+1.0, the Black Moon Spear was absorbed by the Gates of Guf to start the "purification" of the souls. This "purification" didn't started in 3.0, but Eva-13 with the Spears of Longinus was soaring into the sky (towards the Gates of Guf).

Another reason why I think Kaworu controled Eva-13 to impal itself is because this happened just after he says he will close the Gates of Guff. It's just after Eva-13 is stabbed by the two Spears of Longinus (and Kaworu's death) that Eva-13 started to fall, which would delay the "purification" of souls.

PS: Also, the flashback shows Mark.06/Lilith has already started the Third Impact without the Spears. So, the Spears of Cassius and Longinus were likely used to stop it (otherwise these Spears would have dissapeared).
View Original PostElMariachi wrote:
Konja7 wrote:PS: Also, the flashback shows Mark.06/Lilith has already started the Third Impact without the Spears. So, the Spears of Cassius and Longinus were likely used to stop it (otherwise these Spears would have dissapeared).

I guess that it would help to know exactly how 3I was stopped so we could compare with 3.0. (although it's weird that seemingly no spear was necessary for Third Impact, when they were required for every other ones, what's up with that?)

So, here's a nine-spear accounting, ordered by spear consumption event, where each Impact uses up two spears:

Second Impact consumes Golgotha spears #1 and #2 (we see the four remaining spears in the flashback)
Third Impact consumes Golgotha spears #3 and #4 (one of the consumed spears manifests later in the purple tree of life)
Fourth Impact consumes Black Moon spears #1 and #2 (preserving the last two holy spears for Additional Impact)
Additional Impact consumes Golgotha spears #5 and #6 (Cassius and Longinus consumed)
World rewrite consumes Gaius spear #1 (not an Impact, pair not required)

So, six holy spears and two manufactured spears consumed pairwise across four Impacts. Does that work?

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:38 am

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:World rewrite consumes Gaius spear #1 (not an Impact, pair not required)?

Well, Kaworu mentioned they needed the Spear of Longinus and the Spear of Cassius to restore the World. So, a pair seems to be required.

That said, the Spear of Gaius was likely created to be so strong as Longinus and Cassius combined. After all, the Spear of Gaius was created using the blueprints for the Black Moon Spear creation.



View Original Postnerv bae wrote:So, six holy spears and two manufactured spears consumed pairwise across four Impacts. Does that work?

I assume four holy spears were used (and dissapeared) during the Second Impact since four Adams were involved.

I know it's weird that the Third Impact is the only Impact which doesn't use a Holy Spear, but we've already seen a Third Impact starting without a Holy Spear in 2.0.

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Postby nerv bae » Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:51 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I assume four holy spears were used (and dissapeared) during the Second Impact since four Adams were involved.

Sure, but, what textual evidence do we have for this? Well, the flashback shows us four Adams and four spears. Is that all? If not, what am I forgetting?

The idea behind this pairwise proposal is that 3+1 teaches us that there were six spears and that Impacts consume spears in pairs, and that the Second Impact flashback shows us four spears, and so we can conclude that by that moment during Second Impact two had already been consumed. Leaving the four we see remaining. The four Adams are dealt with in some manner that doesn't consume the four spears we see, and so they are available for later consumption in further Impacts (the Third and the Additional, but not the Fourth which consumes Black Moon spears instead).

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I know it's weird that the Third Impact is the only Impact which doesn't use a Holy Spear, but we've already seen a Third Impact starting without a Holy Spear in 2.0.

Under this pairwise proposal, Third Impact does use holy spears: two are consumed, just like in Second, Fourth, and Additional. We just haven't seen this because the timeskip movie doesn't exist. And, we might not expect to see spears consumed at the "start" of any given Impact. Instead, it could be that spears are consumed later during Impacts, for example after their opening rites.

Has anybody proposed consumption of spears during Third Impact yet? I don't see such proposal in this recent Reichu speculah post or in this Szmitten timeskip wiki.

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Postby AsukaShikinami10 » Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:23 pm

I would like to add that during Second Impact flashback we can see that 2 of the 4 spears are in their Longinus configuration while the other 2 remain unseen.

Are we supposed to believe that the spears' default form is Longinus or 3 of them are Cassius and the other 3 are Longinus.

I don't have that very clear. And since we saw Lilith being impaled with a spear in its Longinus configuration, I still have some questions regarding the spears original form.

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Postby Blockio » Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:53 pm

View Original PostAsukaShikinami10 wrote:I would like to add that during Second Impact flashback we can see that 2 of the 4 spears are in their Longinus configuration while the other 2 remain unseen.

Not quite; we see the hilts, from which we can tell that one of the remaining ones was in Longinus, the other in Cassius form
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Postby AsukaShikinami10 » Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:00 pm

@Blockio you're right. I just rewatched the scene. But now it seems it will remain a mystery (for us the audience) why 3 of the spears were in their Longinus configuration while the other one was in Cassius form.

Or do you guys have any theory about that?
I'd love to hear what you think about that, because for me it is still very intriguing.

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Postby nerv bae » Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:20 pm

Wait, this scene?

SPOILER: Show
Image

I thought we were only confident about the two Longinus spears; what am I missing?

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Postby Blockio » Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:30 pm

you can tell the texture of the handles; the one on top does have the kind of spiral to it that is typical of the Longini, where the other is completely uniform in thickness that only Cassius has
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Postby nerv bae » Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:58 pm

Huh, yeah, I learn something new about these movies every day. A clearer screencap:

SPOILER: Show
Image

Interesting contrast with (albeit non-canon) UYCTM:

SPOILER: Show
Image

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:18 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I assume four holy spears were used (and dissapeared) during the Second Impact since four Adams were involved.

I know it's weird that the Third Impact is the only Impact which doesn't use a Holy Spear, but we've already seen a Third Impact starting without a Holy Spear in 2.0.

I think that the spears are necessary to have the Impact have the desired effect, but that they aren't necessary for starting an Impact. We've seen it happen at the end of 2.0.
We can't completely exclude the possibility that the actual Third Impact also involved one or more spears, since we only saw a brief glimpse of it in Misato and Ritsuko's flashback. Maybe Mark.06 was using the Longinus and the Cassius was used to stop it (or vice-versa), or it was using both spears and something else stopped it (preventing them from being consumed), or maybe it didn't used any spear because [fanwank reason here] and the two spears were used to stop it, who knows? Knowing the details of the actual Third Impact could let us draw a definitive pattern.
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Postby Konja7 » Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:48 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I think that the spears are necessary to have the Impact have the desired effect, but that they aren't necessary for starting an Impact. We've seen it happen at the end of 2.0.
We can't completely exclude the possibility that the actual Third Impact also involved one or more spears, since we only saw a brief glimpse of it in Misato and Ritsuko's flashback. Maybe Mark.06 was using the Longinus and the Cassius was used to stop it (or vice-versa), or it was using both spears and something else stopped it (preventing them from being consumed), or maybe it didn't used any spear because [fanwank reason here] and the two spears were used to stop it, who knows? Knowing the details of the actual Third Impact could let us draw a definitive pattern.


The thing is 3.0+1.0 implies that Gendo couldn't use only one of the Holy Spears for the Fourth Impact (or the Additional Impact). Otherwise he wouldn't need the Black Moon Spear to save the Spears of Longinus and Cassius.

Also, it's true that Spears seem to be necessary to start the "purification" of the souls in 3.0+1.0, but the Black Moon Spear dissapear just when that happened. That's why I don't think the Spears of Longinus or Cassius were used to the "purification" of the land.

It's true that we need to know more details about the Actual Third Impact before we could conclude something. However, it's mentioned that the Third Impact in 2.0 would kill everyone, so it's pretty dangerous without Spears involved.

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Postby nerv bae » Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:47 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Also, it's true that Spears seem to be necessary to start the "purification" of the souls in 3.0+1.0, but the Black Moon Spear dissapear just when that happened. That's why I don't think the Spears of Longinus or Cassius were used to the "purification" of the land.

Yeah! Two of the three Longinus spears left over from Second Impact were consumed to purify the land during Third Impact. I'm sticking with this pairwise consumption theory until someone produces evidence against. :tongue:

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Re: More On The Spears...

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:06 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:The thing is 3.0+1.0 implies that Gendo couldn't use only one of the Holy Spears for the Fourth Impact (or the Additional Impact). Otherwise he wouldn't need the Black Moon Spear to save the Spears of Longinus and Cassius.

Also, it's true that Spears seem to be necessary to start the "purification" of the souls in 3.0+1.0, but the Black Moon Spear dissapear just when that happened. That's why I don't think the Spears of Longinus or Cassius were used to the "purification" of the land.

It's true that we need to know more details about the Actual Third Impact before we could conclude something. However, it's mentioned that the Third Impact in 2.0 would kill everyone, so it's pretty dangerous without Spears involved.

Remember that Gendo's ritual was completely different from SEELE (to the point that even WILLE couldn't know what he was doing until it was too late). Personally I took it as Gendo using the Black Moon Spear to brute force the door to the anti-universe open, then use the power of IMAGINATION ( :tongue: ) to create a Lilith and use the last two spears on it to start Instrumentality under his complete control. In short, the same plan than in NGE but with a lot of extra steps due to the circumstances.

As for N3I in 2.0 having the potential to kill everyone, my best guess is that without a spear to give it the desired effect, a "wild" Impact will just kill everything and everyone without any possibility to bring them back, tanging them with their soul lost instead of being stored inside Infinities for example.
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