Quality of NTE containment thread

Postby **Blockio** » Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:32 pm

Konja7 wrote:Honestly, I would have normally agree with Bernardo to stop the discussion, but his first argument being "People will try to distort NGE to make NTE look less messy than it really is" irked me and seemed unnecesary.

I do agree that that one was a bit uncalled for

Postby **BernardoCairo** » Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:55 pm

I'm a person open to criticism. So if you guys want to point something out to me, you can always do so in the feedback section of our website. Please, avoid derailing threads, like Mr. Zoop did.
Anyway, I would like to apologize if anyone was offended by the way I conducted my moderation in the two specific instances above. It wasn't my intention. However, it's only fair to be as hard on pro NTE users as we are on con NTE users. I mean, when these people are derailing threads and pushing the quality of the discussion down. You can ask AXX, for example, how many times he's been called out for doing pretty much the same thing but on the opposite side of the argument. Difference is, instead of messing the thread up further, he used the feedback section of the forum and contacted us via DMs to solve the problem.
Yes, Mr. Zoop, I fired the discussion up. I gave my reasons why comparing the two, in that particular case, made no sense and redirected the discussion back to NTE. I might have to remind you that I'm a mod and judging what's on topic or not is literally part of what we, as mods, do. Over the past two years, we've received a lot of messages from people who were getting tired of every thread devolving into an "NGE vs NTE" or "NTE quality" discussion. We had a particular discussion about this back in September and collectively decided to be tougher on these types of threads so they don't consume the site. Despite what you say, I was the one mod who was against banning these discussions for good, as I envisioned this site as a place for everyone to voice their thoughts. So we reached an agreement, and since I was the one burning my hand for everyone to keep discussing these things, I took my word for it very seriously.
I will moderate according to my own judgment, the rules and the opinion of my colleagues. I don't care if you like NGE or not. I don't care if you like NTE or not. You'll be treated as equals. And in this specific thread, the pro NTE users were the ones who started the comparisons, so I called them out.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that impartiality does not really exist. That's why there's a group of people moderating, not just one. That way, everyone can bring their views to the issues at hand. Even newsrooms are biased. We are biased even in the way we choose our words. This is something that anyone who has studied a bit of linguistics knows. My opinion about these films is no secret for anyone. I never tried to hide it from anyone. There are posts where I defend the tetralogy and there are posts where I criticize it. To say that I am using my powers to shut down discussions is, to say the least, naive. If I truly wanted to do it, I could've done it ages ago. As I said before, I fought for these discussions to even be allowed here. So your post came off as unnecessary to me.
Anyway, if the way I worded my thoughts came off as unreasonable, I'm really sorry.

Gendo's Glasses · Postby **Gendo's Glasses** » Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:42 pm

Archer wrote:Merely being able to deduce that it happens during the missing movie doesn’t make it make sense. Why is Kaji in a commanding position at NERV? Hell, why is Kaworu the commander?

If you go in knowing what happened, you’d at least know that they removed Gendo and Fuyutsuki from power and led NERV in their place for a while after N3I, which at least explains how and why these characters even know each other. That is absolutely not something you could ever figure out from textual evidence. But honestly, even knowing the background, it doesn’t make much sense to me why everyone would be okay with this mysterious teenager showing up out of nowhere and taking command of the world’s foremost defense organization.

It's bizarre. I don't think the revelation that Kaworu was Commander Nagisa makes any sense with what we're shown and told in the third film. The implication appears to be that Kaworu spears Unit-01 and stops Third Impact. NERV staff are incarcerated and Gendo and Fuyutsuki evade capture. At some point, those two and SEELE, with Kaworu, return to the ruins of NERV and begin working together -- if reluctantly and deviously -- with SEELE using Kaworu to keep those two on a tight leash, given they'd openly betrayed them once before and almost cost them everything. Beyond those two and Shinji, no one appears to know that Kaworu exists.

But then, the final film points out that Kaworu was the interim commander of NERV with Kaji as his second in command. So, what, the UN incarcerated everyone but SEELE was still able to fill the top spot with a teenager? And everyone was okay with this? But then when Gendo and Fuyutsuki come back, SEELE basically lets Gendo back in the driver's seat, even if they're watching him carefully? Honestly, the third film only really works coherently if you assume that Kaworu is, unintentionally or otherwise, enacting SEELE's agenda. He might mean to help Shinji, he might honestly think that the spears have the power to fix the world, but that information is incorrect. SEELE want to finish what they started, they need two people to breach the Lillth barrier, and that is why they want Shinji and Kaworu to go down there.

But the final film basically retcons this. Kaworu was never on SEELE's side. He was on the side of humanity or, specifically, Shinji. He was honest and correct when he said they could use the spears to fix the damage caused by the spears, only wrong because the spears were different. The third film implies that, well, Kaworu might be well-meaning but he's being manipulated by SEELE. Like, if Kaworu is working for Shinji, then why does he only put the blame for the world's events on NERV and not on SEELE who control NERV and are still manipulating events?

I feel like before the final film, you could construct a generally coherent and sensible outline of events post-Near-Third Impact. But introducing the idea of good guy Commander Nagisa really complicates things in a way that makes things way more difficult to comprehend and undermines a lot of the more interesting and clever writing choices in the third film. Like how the final film kind of smashes Near-Third and Actual Third together, even if 3.0 fairly clearly indicated they were two separate events (and, again, Kaworu gives a suspect account!)

Konja7 · Postby **Konja7** » Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:09 pm

Gendo's Glasses wrote:It's bizarre. I don't think the revelation that Kaworu was Commander Nagisa makes any sense with what we're shown and told in the third film. The implication appears to be that Kaworu spears Unit-01 and stops Third Impact. NERV staff are incarcerated and Gendo and Fuyutsuki evade capture. At some point, those two and SEELE, with Kaworu, return to the ruins of NERV and begin working together -- if reluctantly and deviously -- with SEELE using Kaworu to keep those two on a tight leash, given they'd openly betrayed them once before and almost cost them everything. Beyond those two and Shinji, no one appears to know that Kaworu exists.

Honestly, Commander Nagisa and Vicecommander Kaji are pretty old ideas. I mean, we have hints in the preview at the end of 2.0. Even in the imageboards of an early version of Q also has hints, since Kaji is alive, but he is living in NERV (it's Kaji who shows the destroyed world to Shinji in that version).

Even 3.0 has this scene, which makes a lot of sense when you discover Kaji and Kaworu were likely friends:

SPOILER: Show

Gendo's Glasses wrote:But the final film basically retcons this. Kaworu was never on SEELE's side. He was on the side of humanity or, specifically, Shinji. He was honest and correct when he said they could use the spears to fix the damage caused by the spears, only wrong because the spears were different. The third film implies that, well, Kaworu might be well-meaning but he's being manipulated by SEELE. Like, if Kaworu is working for Shinji, then why does he only put the blame for the world's events on NERV and not on SEELE who control NERV and are still manipulating events?

Honestly, I don't think there is a retcon about Kaworu in 3.0+1.0. I think they always planned Kaworu to be totally on Shinji's side.

The third film doesn't really imply Kaworu was wrong about the Spears having the power to restore the World. He was wrong about putting Shinji on a mission he wasn't emotionally ready for. Te focus at the end of 3.0 is that Shinji needs to grow.

Also, Kaworu blames NERV, because SEELE is part of NERV at that point. I mean, the only members of NERV at that point are SEELE, Fuyutsuki and Gendo (and the last two pretend to share SEELE's goal).

PS: To be honest, I've always feel the theories that Kaworu was on SEELE's side in 3.0 were exagerated. I've always feel 3.0 wants to portray Kaworu as Shinji's ally.

Gendo's Glasses · Postby **Gendo's Glasses** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:24 am

Konja7 wrote:Honestly, Commander Nagisa and Vicecommander Kaji are pretty old ideas. I mean, we have hints in the preview at the end of 2.0. Even in the imageboards of an early version of Q also has hints, since Kaji is alive, but he is living in NERV (it's Kaji who shows the destroyed world to Shinji in that version).

These are some good point, Konja. Thanks for making them! The hints in the preview at the end of 2.0 are pretty interesting, although I'd say only one of them points to the Commander Nagisa element: Kaworu in what appears to be a NERV uniform. He's even standing in Gendo's casual 'one hand in his pocket' pose. Kaji, however, just appears to be wearing his usual blue NERV uniform in the shot where he's pointing a gun at someone.

Even 3.0 has this scene, which makes a lot of sense when you discover Kaji and Kaworu were likely friends:

True, although I'd say that the two of them knowing each other isn't controversial. Being the commanding pair of NERV is the rough part.

PS: To be honest, I've always feel the theories that Kaworu was on SEELE's side in 3.0 were exagerated. I've always feel 3.0 wants to portray Kaworu as Shinji's ally.

Kaworu can be all of those things, however, which is what made him so enigmatic and interesting in 3.0. I think the way 3.0 presents him is an interesting echo of who he is in the original series. More alien but more sympathetic, too. He genuinely wants to help Shinji, but it's that classic sci-fi idea of having a different perspective of what constitutes help. When Kaworu says they can "repair the world" with the spears, does that mean what Shinji hears? I'd say no, and that's one of the elements that make 3.0 such a great tragedy.

See, I find 3.0 interesting because it does a few things. The first is that it puts Shinji in a position of desiring redemption to such an extent that he'll power forward regardless of the consequences of doing it. The second is that it puts Shinji in a position where everyone around him is alien and frightening. Misato and Ritsuko are angry with him. His father is more taciturn and isolated than ever. Fuyutsuki's involvement is to render Shinji that much more off-balance. Kaworu is friendly, sure, but also somewhat ominous; he's an angel, he's alien -- he never quite tells Shinji the full story. His explanations in 3.0 feel too good to be true, but Shinji is in just the right position to take them at face value and happily walk Kaworu down to Lillith's chamber -- something which we know is a bad thing. When Kaworu takes Shinji to the outside world and says 'hey, you caused this', the audience knows that isn't true, and then there's all these hints about the actual Third Impact that, for whatever reason, Kaworu doesn't disclose. It's great stuff.

When the twist is that Kaworu is accurate and benevolent, a lot of this complexity is lost. You lose the effect of all these different factions and goals colliding in Lillith's chamber until one young teenage boy ruins everything. SEELE need Shinji to accompany Kaworu down there. Kaworu thinks he's giving Shinji what he wants, even if he knows his mission for SEELE -- in an echo of the original, he and SEELE don't need to be on the same page. NERV are basically relying on ensuring that Shinji is going to flip out and monkey wrench something and deliberately inflict on him a psychotic break in one of 3.0's best scenes. No one is communicating, and the few people who are just end up talking past each other. Even Kaworu's death via head asplosion is like that. There's a certain sympathy there, but it's an alien sympathy: well, this sucks, but you'll be fine, and I'll see you next time around, so don't stress!

It's sort of like how people talk about not liking plots which could be resolved by everyone sitting down and having a healthy discussion. I'm not one of those people (how could I enjoy Evangelion if I was!) but the idea that Kaworu could have maybe waited a little while for Shinji to get his emotional state under control and then they could've used the spears just... isn't dramatically interesting. Like, if he's in control and doesn't have anything to do with SEELE and is only there for Shinji, then why didn't he? Kaworu had to stop Shinji from enacting an Impact the last time he was in an Eva, I feel like I'd want to be extremely sure that nothing would go wrong this time around. Again, Kaworu's words and actions make more sense where he has some degree of an ulterior motive, even if it is one where he has Shinji's best interests at heart.

I'd argue that after 3.0, the lesson re: Shinji's growth isn't really along the lines of 'please be calm when wielding the magic spears.' I would've said it was that fixing the world requires maturity and growth, not magic spears. I don't know. I feel like 3.0's Kaworu is similar to a lot of the NTE takes on the characters -- an interesting twist on the original series' incarnation. But the final film just makes him, for lack of a better term, Shinji's Fandom Boyfriend the way it makes Gendo into the Fandom Mastermind and it's just... shallow. But that's sort of why I'm not a huge fan of the final film: it's just too meta. Great EVA capstone, lousy final Rebuild.

edit: You could also make the argument that Kaworu's compassion for Shinji is in and of itself something that SEELE set him up to believe in the first three films.

Konja7 · Postby **Konja7** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:29 am

Gendo's Glasses wrote:It's sort of like how people talk about not liking plots which could be resolved by everyone sitting down and having a healthy discussion. I'm not one of those people (how could I enjoy Evangelion if I was!) but the idea that Kaworu could have maybe waited a little while for Shinji to get his emotional state under control and then they could've used the spears just... isn't dramatically interesting. Like, if he's in control and doesn't have anything to do with SEELE and is only there for Shinji, then why didn't he? Kaworu had to stop Shinji from enacting an Impact the last time he was in an Eva, I feel like I'd want to be extremely sure that nothing would go wrong this time around. Again, Kaworu's words and actions make more sense where he has some degree of an ulterior motive, even if it is one where he has Shinji's best interests at heart.

I assumed that Kaworu rushed with the mission to repair the world to try to give hope to Shinji, who at that moment was very bad emotionally (after the revelation about Rei).

That said, I liked how 3.0+1.0 handled Kaworu's goal. Technically, Kaworu has an ulterior motive, since making Shinji happy is his way of being happy (since Kaworu feels reflected on Shinji). Also, although Kaworu is well intentioned, it's hinted that Kaworu wanting to make Shinji's happy enables Shinji's attitude of escaping from pain.

So, we have different opinions about the way 3.0+1.0 handle this.

Gendo's Glasses wrote:I'd argue that after 3.0, the lesson re: Shinji's growth isn't really along the lines of 'please be calm when wielding the magic spears.' I would've said it was that fixing the world requires maturity and growth, not magic spears.

Technically, that's the point of 3.0+1.0. Shinji has matured and grown, so he is allowed to repair the world with the magic spear.

That said, the Spears are still needed to repair the World. Then, I've understand why you may don't like this resolution.

Archer · Postby **Archer** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:41 am

I fundamentally just do not get the focus on the spears in 3.0+1.0. In fact I think it retroactively makes 3.0 worse.

While I had some issues with its execution - for example, the climax of 3.0 it comes off more to me that Shinji acts like a total idiot and making things worse because the plot needs to progress rather than Shinji acting like a total idiot and making things worse because that’s logically what he’d do in that situation e.g. the end of 2.0 - I think the core idea of “you can’t just fix the world with fairy tail magic macguffins” is an interesting subversion of the usual tropes, which also fits really well into the theme of maturity because the very idea that you can fix the world if only you had fairy tail magic macguffins is inherently a naive and immature worldview, and the fact that Shinji buys into it at all is a sign of immaturity. I thought the whole point was that Shinji had to make the realization that saving the world isn’t just a matter of waving around some magic spears to make the pain go away, and that trying to solve real problems with such a childish and fantastical worldview will only make things worse.

Apparently I was wrong, though, and the intended message was actually “fairy tail magic macguffins require a certain level of emotional maturity to use correctly”, which I personally think is really, really stupid and completely devalues a lot of the (apparently unintentional) themes of 3.0. Using any of the numerous other hilariously powerful and mostly underused magic fairy tail macguffins introduced in 3.0+1.0 - Eva Imaginary, the Golgotha Object, the negative zone as a whole, or some combination therein - could’ve mostly sidestepped this problem, but they just had to go for the one thing that (intentionally crafted or not) feel like they’re supposed to be a symbolism of emotional immaturity.

The ending also doesn’t help matters at all, because regardless of authorial intent, the scene really strongly reads as Shinji leaving his friends behind to live with his big tiddy waifu (with whom he shares probably under 10 minutes of total screen time) in a fantasy world. It just baffles me that they didn’t stop and think for even one second about how that kind of ending is ridiculously easy to interpret in a way that COMPLETELY undermines the intended themes of the Rebuilds.

Kajisimp · Postby **Kajisimp** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:08 am

SPOILER: Show

BernardoCairo wrote:I'm a person open to criticism. So if you guys want to point something out to me, you can always do so in the feedback section of our website. Please, avoid derailing threads, like Mr. Zoop did.
Anyway, I would like to apologize if anyone was offended by the way I conducted my moderation in the two specific instances above. It wasn't my intention. However, it's only fair to be as hard on pro NTE users as we are on con NTE users. I mean, when these people are derailing threads and pushing the quality of the discussion down. You can ask AXX, for example, how many times he's been called out for doing pretty much the same thing but on the opposite side of the argument. Difference is, instead of messing the thread up further, he used the feedback section of the forum and contacted us via DMs to solve the problem.
Yes, Mr. Zoop, I fired the discussion up. I gave my reasons why comparing the two, in that particular case, made no sense and redirected the discussion back to NTE. I might have to remind you that I'm a mod and judging what's on topic or not is literally part of what we, as mods, do. Over the past two years, we've received a lot of messages from people who were getting tired of every thread devolving into an "NGE vs NTE" or "NTE quality" discussion. We had a particular discussion about this back in September and collectively decided to be tougher on these types of threads so they don't consume the site. Despite what you say, I was the one mod who was against banning these discussions for good, as I envisioned this site as a place for everyone to voice their thoughts. So we reached an agreement, and since I was the one burning my hand for everyone to keep discussing these things, I took my word for it very seriously.
I will moderate according to my own judgment, the rules and the opinion of my colleagues. I don't care if you like NGE or not. I don't care if you like NTE or not. You'll be treated as equals. And in this specific thread, the pro NTE users were the ones who started the comparisons, so I called them out.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that impartiality does not really exist. That's why there's a group of people moderating, not just one. That way, everyone can bring their views to the issues at hand. Even newsrooms are biased. We are biased even in the way we choose our words. This is something that anyone who has studied a bit of linguistics knows. My opinion about these films is no secret for anyone. I never tried to hide it from anyone. There are posts where I defend the tetralogy and there are posts where I criticize it. To say that I am using my powers to shut down discussions is, to say the least, naive. If I truly wanted to do it, I could've done it ages ago. As I said before, I fought for these discussions to even be allowed here. So your post came off as unnecessary to me.
Anyway, if the way I worded my thoughts came off as unreasonable, I'm really sorry.

I can't freaking understand why people keep comparing the original EVA with the movies. They are completely different things and it fells like people just keep doing this to get into fights online. It's amazingly pointless, if you ask me.

nerv bae · Postby **nerv bae** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:21 am

Archer wrote:While I had some issues with its execution - for example, the climax of 3.0 it comes off more to me that Shinji acts like a total idiot and making things worse because the plot needs to progress rather than Shinji acting like a total idiot and making things worse because that’s logically what he’d do in that situation e.g. the end of 2.0

I think you are saying that you would have preferred a 3.0 in which Shinji acted like a total idiot and made things worse because that's logically what he'd do in that situation. But, it seems to me like Shinji is motivated more by emotion than logic in that situation, and that his actions are consistent with his emotions. Can you expand on this?

Archer wrote:Apparently I was wrong, though, and the intended message was actually “fairy tail magic macguffins require a certain level of emotional maturity to use correctly”, which I personally think is really, really stupid and completely devalues a lot of the (apparently unintentional) themes of 3.0.

If that's the intended message, I don't think it's stupid. We live today in a world of technologies that would have been impossible to imagine, or at least realize, only a century ago -- essentially a world of fairy tail magic macguffins. It's good that a work should warn us to be emotionally mature in their use, right?

Archer · Postby **Archer** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:26 am

You literally can’t not compare them. 1.0 is basically a straight rehash, 2.0 is a mishmash of various elements with some new stuff… 3.0 is the only movie that I would agree shouldn’t really be directly compared to NGE since it’s almost entirely new material and new ideas, but 3.0+1.0 turns right around and goes back to overtly referencing NGE and using NGE versions of the characters as a crutch - the most blatant example being Ritsuko shooting Gendo, in the Rebuilds they barely even interact with each other and are never even implied to have any relationship beyond the purely professional, that scene is obviously intended to be a “payoff” for a relationship/character interaction that is straight up never established in the Rebuilds, and would make little sense to someone who’s never watched NGE.

If 3.0+1.0 actually committed to taking the story of the Rebuilds in its own unique direction, rather than trying to be the finale to “all of Evangelion”, I’d agree it would be unfair to directly compare them, but the truth is comparison isn’t just warranted, but demanded by the text itself.

@nerv bae will address your post later, saw your reply after writing this post.

nerv bae · Postby **nerv bae** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:29 am

Archer wrote:You literally can’t not compare them.

This. Yay, I don't aways disagree with Archer. :asuka_happy:

Archer · Postby **Archer** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:23 am

I think you are saying that you would have preferred a 3.0 in which Shinji acted like a total idiot and made things worse because that's logically what he'd do in that situation. But, it seems to me like Shinji is motivated more by emotion than logic in that situation, and that his actions are consistent with his emotions. Can you expand on this?

I mean logically from a narrative perspective, not from an in-character perspective. At the end of 2.0, if Shinji had actually stopped to think about it, he maybe would’ve come to the realization that trying to save Rei at that time might not have been the best call… but he was acting on his emotions, under duress, and actively being egged on by Misato, so we the audience can understand why he ends up making that decision. This is honestly pretty close to working in 3.0, all the pieces are there, I just don’t think the writing is tight enough to really sell me on the idea. Without rewatching 3.0 I can’t clearly articulate to you specifically why I think it doesn’t quite work, all I can say is it left be with a bad vibe whereas the similar scene at the end of 2.0 did not.

If that's the intended message, I don't think it's stupid. We live today in a world of technologies that would have been impossible to imagine, or at least realize, only a century ago -- essentially a world of fairy tail magic macguffins. It's good that a work should warn us to be emotionally mature in their use, right?

That would require the narrative to clearly establish the spears as a metaphor for technology that can save the world, but is dangerous in the wrong hands. In the same way that, say, AT fields in NGE are clearly established as a metaphor for the mental walls that people put up around themselves. I’d also argue in 3.0 the focus is very much on the spears themselves rather than the user, considering Kaworu’s reservations lie not in the fact that Shinji isn’t mentally ready to use the spears, but because the spears themselves are somehow “wrong”. I think the biggest point against the “spears = technology” metaphor is that we already have a significantly better-established metaphor for that in the titular Evangelions themselves, which various parties use for good or for ill, and where the entire focus of the last 2 movies revolves around the ethics of Shinji getting in the robot. Like, that reading with the spears you propose is literally already there with the Eva’s: in 3.0 Shinji thinks that getting in the robot in and of itself is the solution to all the problems, except it only makes things worse because he does the wrong things with it; whereas in 3.0+1.0, him getting in the robot again doesn’t undercut that theme because the entire idea is that he’s grown as a person and knows that getting in the robot isn’t an instant-fix button in and of itself. At best, the spears would be a half-assed copy of that existing metaphor that is significantly better established both narratively and thematically.

Konja7 · Postby **Konja7** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:41 am

Archer wrote:I’d also argue in 3.0 the focus is very much on the spears themselves rather than the user, considering Kaworu’s reservations lie not in the fact that Shinji isn’t mentally ready to use the spears, but because the spears themselves are somehow “wrong”.

In-story, I don't think Shinji's emotional state was important to using the spears and repairing the world (especially considering that Kaworu could guide him).

However, thematically there is a contrast in Shinji's attitude and goals between 3.0 and 3.0+1.0. In 3.0, he is punished for his desire to escape the pain (which is the main reason why he takes the Spears even though Kaworu warns him not to). Instead, in 3.0+1.0, Shinji stops running away from pain and he just wants to help humanity, so he is rewarded with the chance to save the world.

PS: I don't think it's a coincidence that a selfless Shinji in 3.0+1.0 could turn a Spear of Longinus into a Spear of Cassius.

Postby **Blockio** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:03 pm

BernardoCairo wrote:However, it's only fair to be as hard on pro NTE users as we are on con NTE users. I mean, when these people are derailing threads and pushing the quality of the discussion down. You can ask AXX, for example, how many times he's been called out for doing pretty much the same thing but on the opposite side of the argument.

^this. Contrary to what some people might tell you, we don't have some secret book of opinions you are or aren't allowed to hold about Eva lest you get targeted by disciplinary action. What matters is the conduct in which you voice these opinions

AsukaShikinami10 · Postby **AsukaShikinami10** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:26 pm

Konja7 wrote:
PS: I don't think it's a coincidence that a selfless Shinji in 3.0+1.0 could turn a Spear of Longinus into a Spear of Cassius.

I think you just solved one of my biggest questions regarding the spears in 3.0!

When Shinji reached for the spears in 3.0 he was really desperate, so It seems logical to me to think the two spears would be manifested as Longinus (a.k.a. despair spears).

Why didn't at least one of them turn onto a Cassius Spear (a.k.a hope Spear) since Kaworu was acting selfless? Simple. There's a scene before the spears extraction where we see Kaworu getting desynched with Evangelion 13, so he didn't have any control over it.

Both spears manifested Shinji's state of mundo, and Gendo was counting with it. So now I clearly can see that Kaworu's desynching was Gendo's doing (maybe he and Fututsuki were able to learn what was happening at the time via Evangelion 13's communication system).

It all now makes so much sense to me.

Gendo's Glasses · Postby **Gendo's Glasses** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:43 pm

Aw, fuck. That's pretty cool.

Postby **Blockio** » Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:11 am

Oh yeah, that's been around for a bit. It's such a wonderful piece of subtle storytelling

Tumbling Down · Postby **Tumbling Down** » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:16 am

Archer wrote:Apparently I was wrong, though, and the intended message was actually “fairy tail magic macguffins require a certain level of emotional maturity to use correctly”, which I personally think is really, really stupid and completely devalues a lot of the (apparently unintentional) themes of 3.0.

Thank you. This is what I've been trying to say in various place, but you articulate it very well.

I think 3.0 + 1.0 was really close to being a good movie. The concept was solid. "Shinji is now in the same mental place he was at the beginning of EoE, but now he has a support network and is able to recover on-screen instead of merely accepting the possibility that he might recover." They just needed to set the whole thing in the village instead of turning into, y'know, a mecha movie at the end. I mean, is there anyone who actually thinks that the giant robots are a necessary part of Eva's appeal? There was only one fight scene in all of EoE, and this movie is supposed to be its optimistic complement.

I've seen this movie 2.5 times. The second time, I skipped right to when Shinji left the village, so I could try to focus on that part of the movie as its own thing without comparing it to what comes before. I still hated it.

I skipped out on seeing the movie in IMAX last night because I knew it'd make me depressed, but seeing Evangelion in IMAX is something I'll probably never have the opportunity to do again. So now I'm sad anyway. Hopefully I'm less sad than I would be if I sat through the movie again.

(Hey GKids: Do a 26 episode + EoE marathon in IMAX some weekend, and I'll pay $200 for a seat.)

Axx°N N. · Postby **Axx°N N.** » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

Tumbling Down wrote:IThey just needed to set the whole thing in the village instead of turning into, y'know, a mecha movie at the end. I mean, is there anyone who actually thinks that the giant robots are a necessary part of Eva's appeal? There was only one fight scene in all of EoE, and this movie is supposed to be its optimistic complement.

I've never considered that before but yeah, for the psychological issues Thrice is putatively trying to face down, a more dedicated approach is needed to not actively undermine what it's trying to explore.

I think a lot of it comes down to the realities (or unrealities) of the mecha genre and its relationship with escapism vs. realism. Tomino and Oshii are fully able to couch complex psychological and political truths with mech action, and it's because they don't treat it in a wholly escapist fashion. Being a war pilot, especially as a child solider, can't not suck despite whatever cool design the robot's got. Eva has never failed to capture that until the introduction of Mari. And that's not to say Mari's archetype or emotional investment in mech as otaku-fixation in-universe (or to go so far as even being paraphilia) is impossible to handle in an interesting way or inherently wrong, as that was explored well in Patlabor in a much more mundane way. But the way NTE handles these divides between mech romping being suckass or "so fun omg!" makes it seem like it's making the argument that mental health = you pilot a giant death machine like it were a toy with no regard for, like, what that actually entails in a setting that has any reality, in terms of the fact lots of budget went into it, if you're not careful you could kill civvies accidentally, you're destroying infrastructure, you need to look after your image as someone who pilots this thing and presents to society and all the boundaries therein. And all of those considerations go out the window gradually in NTE; Shinji's effort to be perceived as a capital P pilot by his friends, and the journey to deserve and justify that image after their initial mistake of taking it too lightly, is a thing of the past once we get to Q, because so much of the action is completely detached from concepts of civilization. On paper the case is that third village is composed of civilians who are deeply indebted to Wille, and know all about this organization as a protection they have to depend on, but in practice it feels like Wille exists in a completely different compartment of the story, as it's mostly just Asuka and Mari (the latter who doesn't ever appear in the village, for instance) doing acrobatics in some nebulous and surreal cavern populated only with goons. Or a skull pit in an entirely abandoned silo, ala Q. Or in the Paris sequence, a dead city and a bunch of weirdly modified gunpla kits on the horizon.

I don't think it was the intention of the film in terms of messaging, but I can't help but see the sheer minutes of runtime dedicated to action in a film otherwise about finding a sound mind as if it were part of its central thesis, as if the two have some direct relationship to each other. I'm not sure I would call it anti-intellectual, but the fact there's actual things to say about the subject matter as it relates to its analogs irl and yet NTE opts to frame mech as purely irreconcilable things better treated as toys and put aside strikes me as, well, not any descriptors like level-headed or spiritually elevated as the Instrumentality scenes might suggest you use. At the very least, I can't make sense of how NTE handles fiction vs. reality, escapism vs. realism, seriousness vs. camp in any way that feels coherent.

It might be stupidly reductive, but I think it really comes down to that there are no real-world correlatives for Shinji wishing Evangelion away. And when there's no pathway to apply the lessons learned (or rather, stated) in Instrumentality, they then also logically have to fall victim to being treated as unrealities that are best put aside. NTE wants to evaporate hard truths at the expense of intelligible communication, and it ends up being weirdly dismissive of basically any notion that isn't "being selfless is good," a moral obligated by decree and not something even really deeply embedded or aided by the storytelling, even before you tabulate how much of it is wasted on meaningless action sequences. I'm not even sure the action is such a big problem as it is that so many elements are gestures. The environment of a ruined world is backdrop and, like everything, is only ever connected to one character and their one vague emotional foible. Nothing is really explored about what would make the real world a wasted landscape or the dynamics at play at the level of society or the individual--the entire world is red with teeth because Gendo wasn't able to let go of his dependency on his wife and his mundane agoraphobia and instead embrace his son ... and also he happened to be in proximity to an ancient alien cult. And like, I don't say that like it can't be treated with complexity as a plot, it would just have to be any less loose and unshaped in action than how I just put it in summary.

I can really only be sympathetic to it as Anno personally finding it impossible to approach the project in a healthy fashion other than to let it go. But this ends up making the somewhat ridiculous (unintentional) argument that well-crafted storytelling is somehow inherently devoid of solution and can't itself be affirming, of sound mind, all the positive emotions NTE wants to evoke by the end. There are plenty of experimental narratives that justify flouting the norms. But I don't think NTE deserves to say "screw everything" and let itself have a get-out-of-jail-free-card with regards to the duties of what you owe an audience, not least of which because its impulse to do so seems at the benefit of its creator first and foremost, and not the integrity of the work itself, which is ironic given how much it extols selflessness. I can't think of any other instance of a narrative feeling so deeply dismissive of the art of narrative, putting "exploration of what it means to be alive" and "being alive in a way that matters" at such complete odds with each other.

Konja7 · Postby **Konja7** » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:57 am

Tumbling Down wrote:I think 3.0 + 1.0 was really close to being a good movie. The concept was solid. "Shinji is now in the same mental place he was at the beginning of EoE, but now he has a support network and is able to recover on-screen instead of merely accepting the possibility that he might recover." They just needed to set the whole thing in the village instead of turning into, y'know, a mecha movie at the end. I mean, is there anyone who actually thinks that the giant robots are a necessary part of Eva's appeal? There was only one fight scene in all of EoE, and this movie is supposed to be its optimistic complement.

I'm not really interested in mecha battles, but I'm pretty sure the giant robots are part of Eva's appeal.

That said, in 3.0+1.0, battles are still necessary to advance the story and get the characters to a certain point. In this case, the staff wanted to stage a confrontation between Shinji and Gendo.

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