BernardoCairo wrote:Guys, let's not turn this into another NGE vs NTE thread, okay? We all know how this will play out. People will try to distort NGE to make NTE look less messy than it really is, then someone else will try to respond and the discussion will go nowhere. Let's stay on topic.

You know, it would be easier to stay way from that discussion if your first argument wasn't People will try to distort NGE to make NTE look less messy than it really is.

BernardoCairo wrote:Also, Konja, c'mon. It's pretty clear when Instrumentality starts in episode 25 and that's not even the point of this episode by design.

What I said were my sincere feelings the first few times I saw Episode 25. Maybe I was unable to understand that Rei was part of the Instrumentality that was going on at the time (I still think it is confusing that the scene between Rei and Gendo happens during the Instrumentality), but I was being honest about my opinion.

BernardoCairo wrote:The basic thing we can all agree on is that canceling a movie and not erasing its events from your franchise's continuity is really stupid.

Nope. I will not condemn the creative team’s choice as “really stupid.” We do not all agree.

I think Misato's flashback scene in TUAT could have been a little longer to elaborate on what was really going on during Actual Third Impact. We only get to see Mark.06 with Lillith's head already fused with her body. In my opinion it isn't enough for me to get to a conclusion onto what events lead to this catastrophe and if all the Angels' plans were the dame from the very beginning (decapitating Lillith and fusing with her body). It is still really ambiguous for me, so I cannot make a concrete conclusion on how this all happened and why Mark.06 was involved without Kaworu (being an Angel) doing something to stop the madness.

It is, at the very least, incredibly risky, while arguably bringing little value to the table. The most common argument I see in favor of it is the old “it puts the audience in Shinji’s shoes” spiel, but the thing is you can still do that by just re-writing the events that happened in the interim in such a way that makes the overall narrative flow better while still maintaining a sense of mystery and alienation. Like, there’s a difference between intentionally crafting a mystery, versus just erasing a climactic and eventful chapter from a story after it has already been written and calling it done.

From a pure cost/benefit perspective, the only explanation that could make sense to me is that, at least during the production of 3.0, they still had plans to cover the time skip in some form, and thus it would not make sense to rewrite events that they had every intention of eventually following up on. But now that we’re more than a year and a half out from the release of 3.0+1.0 I think that ship sailed a long time ago.

I would agree it’s maybe unfair to call the decision stupid, given that we don’t know the full details behind the production and it isn’t a stretch to imagine that when the decision was made, they had every intention of actually releasing that chapter in some form. But with the power of hindsight I think the decision to memoryhole the original 3.0 is THE most damaging factor to the overall narrative coherency of the Rebuilds.

Konja7 wrote:You know, it would be easier to stay way from that discussion if your first argument wasn't People will try to distort NGE to make NTE look less messy than it really is.

I've seen this before, many, many times here. I wasn't necessarily talking about you or anyone else. But it is what happens, again and again. Someone questions NTE, someone else comes along and says "oh, but in NGE" (usually twisting things up) and then the discussion turns into a "new" vs "old" duel that goes nowhere.
After last time, we have collectively decided to be tougher on this type of discussion. Otherwise, it will be taking over this entire section of the forum.
I have nothing against you criticizing Neon Genesis Evangelion. I don't agree with you, but we should discuss this in the subforum above and not here.
If you really just want to compare the two, use the contention thread or create a new one. EoTV has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Also, I didn't actually try to argue that you weren't being honest in your opinion. It is valid and there is space for it here on our website. I just casually pointed it out, but this is not the place to discuss it, anyway.

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nerv bae wrote:Nope. I will not condemn the creative team’s choice as “really stupid.” We do not all agree.

Alright.

The basic thing that most of us can agree on is that canceling a movie and not erasing its events from your franchise's continuity is really stupid.

Here. Fixed. I don't see many people trying to defend this anomaly, to be honest.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:I think Misato's flashback scene in TUAT could have been a little longer to elaborate on what was really going on during Actual Third Impact. We only get to see Mark.06 with Lillith's head already fused with her body. In my opinion it isn't enough for me to get to a conclusion onto what events lead to this catastrophe and if all the Angels' plans were the dame from the very beginning (decapitating Lillith and fusing with her body). It is still really ambiguous for me, so I cannot make a concrete conclusion on how this all happened and why Mark.06 was involved without Kaworu (being an Angel) doing something to stop the madness.

The Third Impact between 2.0 and 3.0 wasn't the 3th-10th Angel's goal, since their goal was to destroy humanity (according to the Dead Sea Rolls).

Kaworu mentioned that this Third Impact was a ritual Lilins brought over themselves trying to evolve into creatures with the Fruit of Life (he also explained that Mark-06 was turned into an automomous model by Lilins). This seems to imply that this Third Impact was for SEELE's goal, which was Humanity replacing the Angels.


PS: We don't really know how the Third Impact was stopped, so it is possible that Kaworu was involved in stopping it.

Konja7 wrote:
Kaworu mentioned that this Third Impact was a ritual Lilins brought over themselves trying to evolve into creatures with the Fruit of Life (he also explained that Mark-06 was turned into an automomous model by Lilins). This seems to imply that this Third Impact was for SEELE's goal, which was Humanity replacing the Angels.

You are right about that, I didn't remember the part of Mark.06 playing part as SEELE's minion by being made autonomous, but it's true.

On the other hand, I don't get why Lillith's body collapsed after the spears were taken away by Shinji. I get the part that it is just now a corpse, but during Misato's flashback Lillith's body seemed to be okay with Mark.06 as its functional head. So I don't get why Lillith image-collapsed as soon as the spears were removed.

Shouldn't Third Impact resume after freeing both Mark.06 and Lilith? If it is because Lillith is just a corpse now, how did she actually die and what was the cause of her death?

For me these are still questions that are left unanswered and don't have any explanation in TUAT, where as being the last movie, at least some questions should be answered, one of them being Actual Third Impact and its world-changing dynamics.

For me these are still questions that are left unanswered and don't have any explanation in TUAT, where as being the last movie, at least some questions should be answered, one of them being Actual Third Impact and its world-changing dynamics.

It’s just something you’ll have to accept that, factually, there is a missing movie that we’ll almost certainly never see. It’s not ideal, but that’s just the way it is. TUAT was never going to answer those questions because as far as the creative team was concerned, they aren’t questions at all, but something that is already established and over with. That’s why TUAT includes scenes like the Instrumentality scene with Kaworu and Kaji that make literally no sense unless you go in with the knowledge that this is actually a reference to events that happened in the missing movie, something the audience has no way to deduce from first-hand textual evidence.

There’s a solid chance some of these questions get answered in the CRC’s, whenever they finally get released, and that will likely be the most closure you’ll ever get on these matters.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:You are right about that, I didn't remember the part of Mark.06 playing part as SEELE's minion by being made autonomous, but it's true.

Kaworu mentioned to Shinji that Mark.06 was turned into an autonomus model when he and Shinji saw Mark-06 merged with Lilith's corpse in Central Dogma in 3.0.

Honestly, I think this is mainly an explanation for the audience, since Shinji didn't ask for so many details.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:Shouldn't Third Impact resume after freeing both Mark.06 and Lilith? If it is because Lillith is just a corpse now, how did she actually die and what was the cause of her death?

I think Lilith died when she was beheaded by Mark.06. It is true that her body is still standing, but that may be because Mark-06 took the place of her head.

My theory is that SEELE used autonomous Mark.06 to kill Lilith and take control of the Third Impact.


PS: I assume that the Third Impact doesn't resume after they free Mark.06, because it was totally stopped by the Spears of Longinus and Cassius.

Archer wrote:That’s why TUAT includes scenes like the Instrumentality scene with Kaworu and Kaji that make literally no sense unless you go in with the knowledge that this is actually a reference to events that happened in the missing movie, something the audience has no way to deduce from first-hand textual evidence.

There is some first-hand textual evidence, right?


Well, left-wrist anyway: in both scenes he's wearing the same NERV command jacket with light piping at the cuff. This enables the audience to deduce that the Instrumentality scene happened in the missing movie.

I admit that there are some other scenes that I haven't made sense of, but this doesn't seem like one of them.

Merely being able to deduce that it happens during the missing movie doesn’t make it make sense. Why is Kaji in a commanding position at NERV? Hell, why is Kaworu the commander?

If you go in knowing what happened, you’d at least know that they removed Gendo and Fuyutsuki from power and led NERV in their place for a while after N3I, which at least explains how and why these characters even know each other. That is absolutely not something you could ever figure out from textual evidence. But honestly, even knowing the background, it doesn’t make much sense to me why everyone would be okay with this mysterious teenager showing up out of nowhere and taking command of the world’s foremost defense organization.

Yeah, I agree with you. It seems so strange that the pilot who managed to save everyone from the now-called Near Third Impact is in a power position.

We don't get to see many interactions between NERV's crew and Kaworu, except for Kaji. And even it seems Kaji never info-dumped Misato about Kaworu or his true nature.

Heck, even 3.0 seems to suggest people at WILLE don't know the existence of Kaworu at all or that he is the first Angel that they still have to defeat.

But it all gets complicated with Kaworu's dialogue in 3.0 implying the DSS Choker was meant for him in the first place.

I mean, what Lilins had acknowledge of Kaworu being a possible Impact trigger and when did he use the DSS Choker. Are we supposed to believe it was while he was NERV's commnder?

And moreso, in the Central Dogma battle neither Asuka nor Mari speak to Kaworu at all, even after they were comunicating with Shinji and I guess they heard him talk to Kaworu too.

It all seems a little too weird for me, honestly.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:I mean, what Lilins had acknowledge of Kaworu being a possible Impact trigger and when did he use the DSS Choker. Are we supposed to believe it was while he was NERV's commnder?

Kaworu mentioned the DSS Choker was created for him, but it isn't mentioned if he really used this at some point.

In 3.0+1.0, we discover WILLE sees Eva pilots as Impact triggers, since Mari and Asuka also use DSS Chokers. So, Kaworu as an Eva pilot fits this.

In itself, it's pretty interesting, because the DSS Choker is an instrument that WILLE use to keep their pilots in control. So, WILLE may originally plannrd to use Kaworu as a pilot.

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:And moreso, in the Central Dogma battle neither Asuka nor Mari speak to Kaworu at all, even after they were comunicating with Shinji and I guess they heard him talk to Kaworu too.

It doesn't seem Asuka or Mari heard Shinji speak with Kaworu in 3.0. In fact, they seem to discover there was another pilot for Eva-13 in 3.0+1.0

Here's a helpful wiki page with some informed speculation on the timeskip events. Some of the speculation is based on textual clues like the jacket I screencapped, while some is just headcanon. I agree that we don't have a completely-informed picture of what happened during the timeskip.

BernardoCairo wrote:Here. Fixed. I don't see many people trying to defend this anomaly, to be honest.

To be honest, I don't see many people perpetuating that opinion at all, at least, not when it's not ranted by angry weebs (luckily we don't see many of those on these boards).
I find it kind of ironic how you try to keep a thread civil with a public warning and then start throwing fuel on the fire yourself.
If anyone ruined a perfectly fine thread here, it would be you. Saying this is not the place of it (why not? its relevant!). Who are you to decide EOTV has nothing to do with the discussion? Its definitely relevant!
I dont think you are casually pointed out anything, feels more like an abuse of power to push your own views/opinions. And then, ironically, say this is not the place for it, while throwing all that here so publically. Sorry, but hypocrisy really dont sit well with me.
Would be nice if an admin isn't spouting speculations as facts and would tone down the attitude a bit.

Imo, comparing NGE to NTE is unavoidable in a lot of discussions since NTE rides a lot on that people know NGE (simple example, when toji is buying Shinji and kensuke icecream, that scene only really makes sense if you know the original, and the contrast it displays to it), so I dont get why you would try to steer people away from this relevant discussion in the first place. Yes, NGE vs NTE has been discussed uncountable times, and be sure we are far from done. It will be brought up time and again each time its relevant.

And its relevant here too. NGE only introduced new mecha's as an antagonist (eva-03, jet alone, mp eva's). NTE definitely throws new mecha's around a whole lot more, and some of the most supposedly powerful, godly eva's only get a few seconds screentime and are cast aside in minutes of screentime. That goes for mk06, but definitely also the opfer types. Contextual comparisons are also important because in a lot of cases NTE is referencing or purposely contrasting something from NGE.

In any case, I dont see any harm in the points raised here, I think they are all relevant, the only posts that didn't belong in this thread, were yours (and now also mine ...)

Zoop wrote:Who are you to decide EOTV has nothing to do with the discussion?

Bernardo is, for starters, part of the mod team, who has unanimously decided after a series of many, many threads being bogged down into splitting hairs over details as a thinly veiled proxy war about how NTE totally sucks, to quell this problem at its core and contain it to only dedicated threads for it, so other discussion can stay free of its toxic waste.
This is a thread about something that only existed in NTE, so no, asking about Mk.06 has nothing to do with the premise of the thread; if your argument is that it was relevant to the current debate in the thread, you have simply pointed out that it has gotten offtopic and needs to be reeled back in.

ElMariachi wrote:The "First Impact" was the asteroid that exterminated the dinosaurs 65 millions years ago.

In retrospect wasn't first impact the crash landing of the black moon on earth, messing everything up with Adam and creating the "real" moon as a result millions/billions of years later?

Jinroh wrote:In retrospect wasn't first impact the crash landing of the black moon on earth, messing everything up with Adam and creating the "real" moon as a result millions/billions of years later?

Yup; I will embed Axx's image link for easier viewing:

Axx°N N. wrote:They're infodumped via freeze-frame: https://wiki.evageeks.org/images/4/4f/0 ... verlay.jpg

Blockio wrote:Bernardo is, for starters, part of the mod team, who has unanimously decided after a series of many, many threads being bogged down into splitting hairs over details as a thinly veiled proxy war about how NTE totally sucks, to quell this problem at its core and contain it to only dedicated threads for it, so other discussion can stay free of its toxic waste.

You're right, this discussion doesn't need the comparison with NGE either.

Honestly, I would have normally agree with Bernardo to stop the discussion, but his first argument being "People will try to distort NGE to make NTE look less messy than it really is" irked me and seemed unnecesary.