Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Blockio » Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:15 pm

yeah, Rei 2 is in 01, Shiki prime in 13
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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:18 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:Veering off topic already, but I was thinking that if Kaworu being killed by the DSS choker wasn't enough to stop N4I (and Shinji had to be ejected by Mari), maybe it's because his dead body plus his disembodied soul (still trapped in the entry plug?) still somehow "contribute" towards activating the double-seat Eva-13.

Perhaps that's why Asuka was surprised when it "activated" in 3.0+1.0; when she said:

Wasn't it single entry...?


She wasn't asking whether tjhe Eva-13 requires two pilots or not (that much should be known by then), but rather shocked that it's supposed to have only one "pilot" inside (dead Kaworu), and thus unable to activate...?

Of course, it is later revealed that Original Ayanami was inside too, something that apparently no one in Wille knew up until that point (they likely thought NERV was only in possession of first-batch Ayanami-series pilots, with their soul "elsewhere", and thus unqualified to pilot Eva-13 just as Rei-Q).

It's strange, did WILLE just assumed that Gendo wouldn't had put a Dummy System in the second slot just to keep it mobile in case something happens to the plug with Kaworu's remains in it?

Besides, the term "single entry" is pretty unambiguous, shouldn't Asuka had said something like "Wasn't there only one pilot/plug active remaining?" if that was what she meant?
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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:50 pm

View Original PostZoop wrote:Wait, now im getting confused, original Ayanami was in 01, not 13, right?.

I think DantesInferno wanted to say Original Shikinami, which seems to be inside Eva-13. That said, I've always wondered if Original Shikinami was really inside Eva-02, while the position she appears could be misleading.


View Original PostZoop wrote:Gendo seems to be able to control eva13 like kaworu did to 02 in NGE, from a distance. If there's any confusion about pilots and or activation with eva13, i'd say its because of this.
And yeah, sure, kaworu is still inside, that much has been confirmed, so the two pilots at that point would be gendo and (dead) kaworu.

I assumed Kaworu's souless body was the only pilot in Eva-13, but it makes sense that Gendo was piloting (from a distance) too.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby nerv bae » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:36 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Besides, the term "single entry" is pretty unambiguous, shouldn't Asuka had said something like "Wasn't there only one pilot/plug active remaining?" if that was what she meant?

The line was translated a bit differently by Prime and Reichu, as we discussed a bit last year over here, but neither translation is as satisfying as your proposal.

Konja7 wrote:I assumed Kaworu's souless body was the only pilot in Eva-13, but it makes sense that Gendo was piloting (from a distance) too.

I'm still voting for Unit 13 being piloted by zombie Kaworu and original Asuka.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby DantesInferno » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:59 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original PostZoop#937850 wrote:Wait, now im getting confused, original Ayanami was in 01, not 13, right?.

I think DantesInferno wanted to say Original Shikinami, which seems to be inside Eva-13.


That's right, my mistake :D

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:That said, I've always wondered if Original Shikinami was really inside Eva-02, while the position she appears could be misleading.


That's an interesting idea... also the Gendo remote-controlling Eva-13 makes a lot of sense given his powers post-key.

(edit:) However, on second thought, original Asuka and tiny Kaworu behind her are shown in the same shot; in my opinion, this visual link strongly suggests they're at least on similar footing.
Also, did we ever get an explanation of how original-Asuka "pulls" Asuka out of her seat (leaving the DSS choker behind), and her soul is somehow according to Mary) "perhaps still trapped inside Eva-13", but the 9th angel is left behind in the Eva-02 entry plug (and ultimately chewed by Eva-13 in order to trigger 4I)? What's the deal with that? Gendo seems to need the 9th angel (and according to him, Asuka's and Rei's clones are just a means to deliver that), so why is Asuka pulled out of the plug and into Eva-13, when the angel (left begind inside the plug?) is only assimilated later? For dramatic effect? Or perhaps the point of splitting her from the angel is just to neutralize her as a resisting force?

I wonder what's the deal with Eva-13 turning off the white glow once Gendo gets in through the mouth. Out-of-universe, I guess they needed it for the sake of "visual symmetry" between Eva-01 and Eva-13...

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Konja7 » Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:03 am

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:I'm still voting for Unit 13 being piloted by zombie Kaworu and original Asuka.

I will vote for Gendo as the other pilot (from the distance) of Eva-13 in 3.0+1.0. In Kaworu's Instrumentality, Shinji mentioned that Gendo and Kaworu had piloted the same Eva.

Original Shikinami seems to be a soul, so I don't think she could really pilot Eva-13.

In the same way, Kaworu's soul doesn't seem to have any control over Eva-13 in 3.0+1.0 (the "pilot" is Kaworu's souless body). That said, it is possible that Kaworu's soul has no control due to being trapped in the pillar of green light.



View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:(edit:) However, on second thought, original Asuka and tiny Kaworu behind her are shown in the same shot; in my opinion, this visual link strongly suggests they're at least on similar footing. Also, did we ever get an explanation of how original-Asuka "pulls" Asuka out of her seat (leaving the DSS choker behind), and her soul is somehow according to Mary) "perhaps still trapped inside Eva-13", but the 9th angel is left behind in the Eva-02 entry plug (and ultimately chewed by Eva-13 in order to trigger 4I)? What's the deal with that? Gendo seems to need the 9th angel (and according to him, Asuka's and Rei's clones are just a means to deliver that), so why is Asuka pulled out of the plug and into Eva-13, when the angel (left begind inside the plug?) is only assimilated later? For dramatic effect? Or perhaps the point of splitting her from the angel is just to neutralize her as a resisting force?

I assume Asuka has the same role of Shinji in the previous Fourth Impact, while 9th Angel seems to have a similar role for the Fourth Impact than the 12th Angel.

The Fourth Impact in 3.0 and the Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0 have pretty similar elements:

- The 13th Angel
- Two Spears of Longinus / The Black Moon Spear
- The 12th Angel / The 9th Angel


PS: The Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0 include the four wunders, but this seems to be necessary to create the Black Moon Spear.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby DantesInferno » Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:20 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:PS: The Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0 include the four wunders, but this seems to be necessary to create the Black Moon Spear.


Actually, it only took two ships to create the spear.

It is fourth impact that seems to have needed the four ships (perhaps because that is the "artificial recreation of Lilith", with all 12 wings of light).

I think there's a few dialogue inconsistencies perhaps due to late editing. One is Misato saying that the strange spear was created when the Wunder had been taken over by the Adams vessel (it was way before that, like I said) while she's proposing the creation of a new spear suing the Wunder. The other one is Shinji telling her that the earth smelled like Kaji had told him "on his way back after Ayanami disappeared"; if you look at the movie, he notices it after a different scene, before Rei-Q destabilizes.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Konja7 » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:20 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:Actually, it only took two ships to create the spear.

It is fourth impact that seems to have needed the four ships (perhaps because that is the "artificial recreation of Lilith", with all 12 wings of light).

I think there's a few dialogue inconsistencies perhaps due to late editing. One is Misato saying that the strange spear was created when the Wunder had been taken over by the Adams vessel (it was way before that, like I said) while she's proposing the creation of a new spear suing the Wunder. The other one is Shinji telling her that the earth smelled like Kaji had told him "on his way back after Ayanami disappeared"; if you look at the movie, he notices it after a different scene, before Rei-Q destabilizes.


I think Misato's words are likely correct that the Black Moon Spear needs the Wunder for its creation. I mean, the Black Moon Spear may appears when there are two ships, but perhaps the creation of the Black Moon Spear isn't complete until the four ships are taken over by the Adams.

The reason why I don't think the Fourth Impact needs the four ships is because it doesn't need these in 3.0. As I mentioned, the elements for the Fourth Impact in 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 are pretty similar.


PS: You're right Shinji's dialogue about the earth smell doesn't exactly fit the time we see it.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby The_Max » Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:51 pm

Mari is (not) a clone :tongue:
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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby DantesInferno » Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:53 pm

View Original PostThe_Max wrote:Mari is (not) a clone :tongue:
Image


I understand the glowing part near her shoulders...? But why do her lower arms look like they're made of core? It's not like they've been exposed to some core-ifying influence such as Eva-00's arms when holding the 8th angel's core in 2.0, or Eva-08's arms when clinging to the still very much awakened and L-field amanating Eva-13 near the end of Q; in this case, the arms have just been blown up by the self-destructing, two-arms-stuck-together Nerv contraptions.

...Speaking of the contraptions, I don't think they even count as "Evas", like e.g. the 44A's or the Mark.04B, given that they don't appear in the "Eva erasure" scene near the end.

But perhaps this is just because they're not named. Maybe an Eva needs to both appear on screen and be named by some character in order to be featured in that scene (hence why the doomed Eva-04 doesn't appear), which feels pretty much like it's not something that is happening "in universe", but rather meta-texctual and aimed directly at the audience.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Archer » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:39 am

which feels pretty much like it's not something that is happening "in universe", but rather meta-texctual and aimed directly at the audience.


I feel like this applies to the entire latter half of the movie, and probably most of the rest of the Rebuilds as well.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:40 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:I understand the glowing part near her shoulders...? But why do her lower arms look like they're made of core? It's not like they've been exposed to some core-ifying influence such as Eva-00's arms when holding the 8th angel's core in 2.0, or Eva-08's arms when clinging to the still very much awakened and L-field amanating Eva-13 near the end of Q; in this case, the arms have just been blown up by the self-destructing, two-arms-stuck-together Nerv contraptions.

Maybe that's a function of the new plugsuit? Mari mentions that they are designed to allow a deeper plug depth, so that might be a function to avoid the physical backlash when their Eva is damaged, like round things on the advanced plugsuits hands that we saw getting illuminated and spinning on Shinji's plugsuit when Eva 13 was blocked Asuka's blades with its hands in 3.0.
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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby nerv bae » Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:12 am

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:
View Original PostThe_Max#937917 wrote:Mari is (not) a clone :tongue:
Image

I understand the glowing part near her shoulders...? But why do her lower arms look like they're made of core? It's not like they've been exposed to some core-ifying influence such as Eva-00's arms when holding the 8th angel's core in 2.0, or Eva-08's arms when clinging to the still very much awakened and L-field amanating Eva-13 near the end of Q; in this case, the arms have just been blown up by the self-destructing, two-arms-stuck-together Nerv contraptions. ...

Theory: Mari's lower arms look like they're made of core because Unit 08's blown-off arms are still broadcasting damage telemetry. We see in the following in-order screenshots that Unit 08's arms are blown off, not apart. In other words, they come off basically intact. After each arm is blown off, we're shown Mari inside Unit 08's entry plug, with first one and then both of her arms exhibiting damage and coreization. This is because the blown-off arms are sitting exposed on the surface of neo-NERV HQ, becoming core, and phoning this dire condition back to Unit 08.

Unit 08 left arm  SPOILER: Show
Image
Mari left arm  SPOILER: Show
Image
Unit 08 right arm  SPOILER: Show
Image
Mari both arms  SPOILER: Show
Image

Following this, as Unit 08 leaps to safety the black moon spears wreck neo-NERV HQ. This further damages or even destroys Unit 08's blown-off arms, leading to respective degradation or even cessation of their telemetry. Unit 08 finds Mark 9 on the Wunder and confiscates its right arm, and the next time we see into Unit 08's entry plug Mari's right arm is completely recovered while her left arm is still showing a little trouble at the shoulder. This is because Unit 08 has fully integrated Mark 9's right arm, and Unit 08's blown-off left arm has slowed or stopped its damage telemetry. Finally, as soon as Mari pilots Unit 08 into the anti-universe, all signs of damage disappear inside the entry plug, either because Unit 08's left arm has finally quit telemetry completely, or what remains of that transmission can't cross the anti-universe barrier.

neo-NERV HQ wrecked  SPOILER: Show
Image
right arm yeet  SPOILER: Show
Image
Mari partial recovery  SPOILER: Show
Image
Mari full recovery  SPOILER: Show
Image

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:52 pm

^
That would support the theory that the "core effect" on Mari's arms are a function of her new plugsuit's damage feedback.
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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby DantesInferno » Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:27 pm

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:Theory: Mari's lower arms look like they're made of core because Unit 08's blown-off arms are still broadcasting damage telemetry. We see in the following in-order screenshots that Unit 08's arms are blown off, not apart. In other words, they come off basically intact. After each arm is blown off, we're shown Mari inside Unit 08's entry plug, with first one and then both of her arms exhibiting damage and coreization. This is because the blown-off arms are sitting exposed on the surface of neo-NERV HQ, becoming core, and phoning this dire condition back to Unit 08.

Following this, as Unit 08 leaps to safety the black moon spears wreck neo-NERV HQ. This further damages or even destroys Unit 08's blown-off arms, leading to respective degradation or even cessation of their telemetry. Unit 08 finds Mark 9 on the Wunder and confiscates its right arm, and the next time we see into Unit 08's entry plug Mari's right arm is completely recovered while her left arm is still showing a little trouble at the shoulder. This is because Unit 08 has fully integrated Mark 9's right arm, and Unit 08's blown-off left arm has slowed or stopped its damage telemetry. Finally, as soon as Mari pilots Unit 08 into the anti-universe, all signs of damage disappear inside the entry plug, either because Unit 08's left arm has finally quit telemetry completely, or what remains of that transmission can't cross the anti-universe barrier.


Makes a lot of sense! Totally missed the arms being severed instead of being "destroyed in place".


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