As we all know, humanity are born Lilins, the children of Lilith. However, the clones like Rei, Kaworu, and Asuka are not. These clones are a byproduct of science and not created by nature, but rather artificially created and biologically engineered in a lab, and mass produced into a number of copies.

To me, this whole cloning thing is a mockery of life, just the scientist’s cheap attempt to create an imitation of the person instead of them being a genuine article. The clones are basically a carbon copy of a person, with no face or identity of their very own. That seems like a cheap way to imitate life.

So, I’m not sure if these clones are considered real people, since they’re just made in tanks by artificial means instead of being born through a man and a woman. This is like an alchemist performing human transmutation to create a homunculus, or Dr. Frankenstein and his attempt to create life, or building a robot, or someone making a manikin to try to bring to life. And I don’t know how the clones can have a soul of their very own since it’s impossible to create through science.

Was Dolly a sheep?

Do Rei, Asuka, and Kaworu cry? Do they feel joy? Do they live, and want to be loved? Do they feel fear, pain, loneliness,,and hope?

Was there meaning to Shinji's time with them?

How, exactly, are they not human? What do they lack? Their souls are human. They're real in every way that matters. The fact they didn't come out of a woman is entirely irrelevant.

I mean, Eva has always been very squishy in its definition of a human, so this is kind of the prime case to say that even if you are not strictly created by the same biological process as everyone else (which also would call into question the humanity of IV fertilized children, not even a question outside of the most hardline fundamentalist nutcases), does not make a being with a human consciousness any less of a human

the clones [...] Asuka are not

but only in Rebuild

AuraTwilight wrote:How, exactly, are they not human? What do they lack? Their souls are human. They're real in every way that matters. The fact they didn't come out of a woman is entirely irrelevant.

Late reply, but I think I’ll answer your question anyway.

The real difference between a human and a clone is that how the clones were created in a tube by artificial means. They were made to be disposable if their creators so chooses to, and they don’t really have the same value as the real human being. They were grown in labs, they can always make new ones. They’re easily replaceable than the genuine article person. Just imagine making fake diamonds when compared to the real deal. The real ones are worth a lot more, unlike the cheap imitations.

The clones made by NERV were made to be expendable and serve only one purpose, which is Instrumentality. They don’t really have much value to their creators, and are most likely treated differently compared to normal humans. What else could they be besides their primary purposes? Like robots and other constructs, they just treated like objects rather a normal person.

We know God created man in his own image, and this cloning thing is just another Scientist’s way of playing god. That’s the major between a man and a clone, or a woman and a clone.

I can't tell whether C.T.1290 is expressing his own IRL opinions or just channeling medium-intensity Gendo.

However, the clones like Rei, Kaworu, and Asuka are not.

Kaworu is a clone? Since when lol

ChrisTamv wrote:Kaworu is a clone? Since when lol

It's always been a theory that Kaworu was a clone like Rei, but it isn't really confirmed.

That said, It's implied Kaworu was created during the experiment between human DNA and Adam.

That said, It's implied Kaworu was created during the experiment between human DNA and Adam.

Interesting. I thought that was only the case in the original.

ChrisTamv wrote:Interesting. I thought that was only the case in the original.

I'm sorry, I was mainly speaking about NGE. We don't have a lot of information about Kaworu's origin in NTE.

Still, he mentioned that he was the First Angel in NTE. So, I think Kaworu being born due to a experiment between human DNA and the First Angel is a good possibility.

C.T.1290 wrote:

AuraTwilight#937363 wrote:How, exactly, are they not human? What do they lack? Their souls are human. They're real in every way that matters. The fact they didn't come out of a woman is entirely irrelevant.

Late reply, but I think I’ll answer your question anyway.

The real difference between a human and a clone is that how the clones were created in a tube by artificial means. They were made to be disposable if their creators so chooses to, and they don’t really have the same value as the real human being. They were grown in labs, they can always make new ones. They’re easily replaceable than the genuine article person. Just imagine making fake diamonds when compared to the real deal. The real ones are worth a lot more, unlike the cheap imitations.

The clones made by NERV were made to be expendable and serve only one purpose, which is Instrumentality. They don’t really have much value to their creators, and are most likely treated differently compared to normal humans. What else could they be besides their primary purposes? Like robots and other constructs, they just treated like objects rather a normal person.

We know God created man in his own image, and this cloning thing is just another Scientist’s way of playing god. That’s the major between a man and a clone, or a woman and a clone.

I know a mod already shut this down, but to give my own piece on this... Literally none of this is relevant, or matters, because "God" doesn't exist in the NGE universe and certainly doesn't assign value to human life anyway. The series makes an entire running theme, in all continuities, about people being shaped by their bonds and being defined by how their interactions with other people allow them to know themselves.

Rei's entire storyline, in basically every work of Evangelion where she is an artificial being, has her ultimately concluding to affirm her humanity despite having a borrowed body, name, and soul because her memories and experiences are only her own, and there are people who value her as the unique personage of "Rei Ayanami."

The other clones/artificial beings in the series are treated the same way. At no point in any Evangelion work is Asuka Shikinami, Rei Ayanami, Kaworu Nagisa, or anyone else who came out of a test tube is treated by the narrative as less important or valuable than anyone else, and when their human creators or anyone else treat them in such a way, they're doing so in a villainous light that the story opposes.

Gendo treating Rei as an object he can control is villified, and is the key reason he LOSES where Shinji SUCCEEDS (or, well, has shit fall in his lap he doesn't understand or ask for but you know); because he treats Rei, Kaworu, and everyone else as actual people.

And comparing people, even cloned people, to artificial diamonds is, quite frankly, as disgusting as it is wrong. Diamonds don't feel anything or think anything or do anything, they are literally objects. Artificial diamonds are exactly identical to real diamonds in every way except for the ENTIRELY arbitrary monetary value given to them by an economic trade we made up. No human preconceptions, notions, or societal norms change the fact that PEOPLE FEEL THINGS.

And no, Rei Ayanami can't be replaced. That's like... her entire arc. Especially in Rebuild of Evangelion, where Shinji literally refuses to accept that a clone of Rei is the same as the first one, and is proven to be right by the tetraology's conclusion.

So fuck that noise.

I was originally gonna say something similar to what AuraTwilight just said, but they put it much more eloquently and better thought out than I would've, so I'll just say this.

If the question is whether the story is trying to say/considers Rei, Kaworu, and Asuka to be truly "human" then the answer is unquestionably yes, and even if they're not 100% "physically" human, in all the ways that actually matter in regards to what it means to be human they absolutely are.
If the question is whether you should consider them "human" in-universe for all the reasons you've listed... well then I can't answer that because I'm not you. However, I'd hope the arguments presented help shed light on why you'd be considered wrong if your answer to that question is no.

nerv bae wrote:I can't tell whether C.T.1290 is expressing his own IRL opinions or just channeling medium-intensity Gendo.

Well, to be honest, I’m not sure I like what they did with Asuka in Rebuild. I guess it’s because of how I’d prefer her to remain as a normal human being instead of being…well..a clone. They made her much like how Rei is, and what Soryu had accused her of being; a doll. She is now what NGE Asuka hates. And I can imagine what kind of sad life that the people at Euro NERV had put her (and her sisters) through, creating them for only one purpose in their whole existence, and then dispose of them when they’re done with them. This whole ordeal is totally unethical, and very inhumane. She’s basically NERV’s property, and we see how they treat their property. She’s not really a person to them, but some thing. Not sure if Soryu got some better treatment, but it’s just bad as how Shikinami got treated, who had it worse.

So after finding out that Asuka was a clone all the long in Rebuild, I just felt like that this changed things a little, if not drastic. And the fact the Soryu never existed in that timeline is kind of a sad reality, really.

AuraTwilight wrote:And comparing people, even cloned people, to artificial diamonds is, quite frankly, as disgusting as it is wrong. Diamonds don't feel anything or think anything or do anything, they are literally objects. Artificial diamonds are exactly identical to real diamonds in every way except for the ENTIRELY arbitrary monetary value given to them by an economic trade we made up. No human preconceptions, notions, or societal norms change the fact that PEOPLE FEEL THINGS.

Okay, so that was a pretty bad comparison I did there. I just thought of clones as some cheap imitation of human life, since have no face and identity of their own, but rather someone else’s. And them being created by science instead of the natural way is basically playing god there. And to NERV, clones are easily disposable, which is inhumane on their part.

But yeah, it’s a pretty bad comparison that I did.

C.T.1290 wrote:Okay, so that was a pretty bad comparison I did there. I just thought of clones as some cheap imitation of human life, since have no face and identity of their own, but rather someone else’s. And them being created by science instead of the natural way is basically playing god there. And to NERV, clones are easily disposable, which is inhumane on their part.

But yeah, it’s a pretty bad comparison that I did.

But ultimately, a big point made is that they're not cheap imitations. The fact that they're given someone else's face and such to start is unfair to them, and is used by other people to justify cheapening their lives, but this is repeatedly shown to be not true. Rei Q finishes her character arc by becoming a different person than Rei Ayanami, with her own feelings, experiences, and sense of self that she built on her own instead of borrowing from anyone else.

Even if you kill Rei and make a new one, it's a different girl with her own heart, regardless of her looking and sounding the same. Just like the original Rei was never Yui.

C.T.1290 wrote:Well, to be honest, I’m not sure I like what they did with Asuka in Rebuild. I guess it’s because of how I’d prefer her to remain as a normal human being instead of being…well..a clone. They made her much like how Rei is, and what Soryu had accused her of being; a doll. She is now what NGE Asuka hates. And I can imagine what kind of sad life that the people at Euro NERV had put her (and her sisters) through, creating them for only one purpose in their whole existence, and then dispose of them when they’re done with them. This whole ordeal is totally unethical, and very inhumane. She’s basically NERV’s property, and we see how they treat their property. She’s not really a person to them, but some thing. Not sure if Soryu got some better treatment, but it’s just bad as how Shikinami got treated, who had it worse.

So after finding out that Asuka was a clone all the long in Rebuild, I just felt like that this changed things a little, if not drastic. And the fact the Soryu never existed in that timeline is kind of a sad reality, really.

The way you describe it is definitively how NERV treated them, ironically in a way that was also the case for Rei before the timeskip: Gendo kept her around and treated her relatively as a human being (which was still horribly subpar and ticked all the cases of emotional abuse) only because he considered her as a shadow of Yui, and by his own admission in Thrice, once he came to the conclusion that there was nothing of Yui in her aside her face, he completely discarded her and started to use the Ayanami series clones like expendable tools the same way as the Shikinami series.

IMHO, the reason Asuka called Rei a doll wasn't because she was a clone (assuming she already knows this before the timeskip, as in the TV shows she didn't know it), but because she's subservient and obeys to whatever orders are given to her without complaining, like a good little tool. And I think that's why when in the elevator, when she sees Rei's injuries from her own attempts at cooking, she realized that Rei isn't just an obedient tool but also has her own initiative, which is why Asuka conceded the "victory" to Rei in the cooking war.

And in a sad and ironic turn of events, after the timeskip it's Asuka who acts more like a doll, following whatever orders WILLE gives them and putting up with their inhumane treatment without complaining, having internalized that she's just an inhumane living tool.

But even then, the movies makes it clear that the treatment of Asuka and Rei (both Q and II) is inhumane and that both are their own individuals with their own intrinsic worth.

IMHO there's a big missed opportunity with Rei Q in that that while the writers made her character arc pointing toward her being her own individual, they didn't wanted (dared?) to go to the logical conclusion and "officially" make her a new character, instead tying her up to Rei II's story, hence her not getting a first name and Rei II seemingly having absorbed her memories, and also not having a funeral or acknowledgment of her death by the rest of the Village, since she might "come back" later as Rei II, which leaves Rei Q in a weird spot where she's her own individual, but not really.
And maybe it's just me, but I get the impression that on a meta-level that's also why there's a number of merchandise and illustrations of her in her plugsuit in white (despite appearing only for a few second and being a sign of her impending death), an obvious callback to Rei II's white plugsuit and also a way to have her as a stand-in for both Reis.

C.T.1290 wrote:Well, to be honest, I’m not sure I like what they did with Asuka in Rebuild. I guess it’s because of how I’d prefer her to remain as a normal human being instead of being…well..a clone. They made her much like how Rei is, and what Soryu had accused her of being; a doll. She is now what NGE Asuka hates. And I can imagine what kind of sad life that the people at Euro NERV had put her (and her sisters) through, creating them for only one purpose in their whole existence, and then dispose of them when they’re done with them. This whole ordeal is totally unethical, and very inhumane. She’s basically NERV’s property, and we see how they treat their property. She’s not really a person to them, but some thing. Not sure if Soryu got some better treatment, but it’s just bad as how Shikinami got treated, who had it worse.

So after finding out that Asuka was a clone all the long in Rebuild, I just felt like that this changed things a little, if not drastic. And the fact the Soryu never existed in that timeline is kind of a sad reality, really.

Thing is, yeah you are supposed to see the circumstances that Asuka had to grow up in as a result of being an artificial human as tragic and sad. You're supposed to feel bad for her in how she was raised as a child soldier with no friends or family. You're supposed to sympathize with her in how she was essentially seen as military hardware instead of as a person. You're supposed to see the way they treat her like a tool and made her believe that if she couldn't be the best Eva pilot she's literally worthless as appalling. You're supposed to see that treatment and think "that's fucked up, she deserves better". (While we're at it, this is also how you're supposed to see Rei's circumstances as well, and making Asuka a clone like her wasn't to make her less sympathetic, it was to show how they're not so different. In fact, the only way they really differ here is how specifically they were made to feel worthless: Rei was made to believe she was completely replaceable and that the only thing she could ever possibly be is an Eva pilot, Asuka was made to believe that her worth was intrinsically tied being an Eva pilot and that no one would ever care about her if she wasn't the best. Both of these beliefs are also disproven by the end of Shin/their respective character arcs)

Ultimately the takeaway shouldn't be "Shikinami's life sucks because she's a clone", it's "Shikinami's life sucks because everyone around her didn't consider her a person her whole life (until she met people who did care about her as a person i.e. Mari, Kensuke and Shinji)". Being a clone is the in-universe rationale for why NERV treated her like an object, but being a clone in and of itself isn't the problem. Asuka couldn't choose the circumstances of her birth/creation, but everyone else could always choose to be kind.

As for that last thing, maybe a better way to think of it is that it's not that Soryu doesn't exist in Rebuild's timeline, but that Shikinami is something of a reincarnation of her (I can't say that she's necessarily a literal reincarnation of her, but she is at least a spiritual/thematic one).

I wonder what was the point of creating the Shikinami series, other than NERV having some kid’s life to ruin and to be used a tool for Instrumentality. Since she’s technically their property, they’re free to do what they want with her.

So why make clones to pilot Evangelions, instead of finding some recruits? It’s like Asuka has no other real purpose in life.

Edit: Also, from another thread:

MsenjaKagami wrote:[Asuka includes herself when describing their "built in limitations" such as their "insufficient emotions". It doesn't say specifically that Asuka was also "programmed" to like Shinji, but I think it's definitely intended to suggest that she is aware that she didn't decide her own feelings..

nerv bae wrote:1) The limiters, preventing the pilots from transcending human limits, are implemented as inefficient emotions in the sense that those emotions are incomplete, poorly-formed, or weak: under this interpretation, Asuka is explaining that their emotions are defective and that she and Rei don't feel as much as regular people.

2) The limiters, preventing the pilots from transcending human limits, are implemented as inefficient emotions in the sense that all emotions are unnecessary, superfluous, and just get in the way: under this interpretation, Asuka is condemning emotions alltogether and implicitly wishing that she was emotionless.

I think I'd always assumed that #1 was correct but now I'm thinking #2 fits Asuka better.

These right there is another difference between clones and real people. They are, at the base of their creation, just organic robots. Some bio androids, if you will. And it’s that difference is why clones could never be true human beings. And it’s why they’re considered fake; their emotions and everything else about them, all fake.

I really think they should just have Asuka remain as a normal human being like she was in NGE, and not some…thing created in a lab.

C.T.1290 wrote:These right there is another difference between clones and real people. They are, at the base of their creation, just organic robots. Some bio androids, if you will. And it’s that difference is why clones could never be true human beings. And it’s why they’re considered fake; their emotions and everything else about them, all fake.

I really think they should just have Asuka remain as a normal human being like she was in NGE, and not some…thing created in a lab.

The story doesn't show the clones that way. Even the limitations are just characteristics.

The clones being considered "human robots" is exactly the reason why Asuka's story in Rebuild is so tragic.

Honestly, I understand you dislike the change, but Asuka being a clone doesn't really makes her "a thing".