Axx°N N. wrote:tl;dr, I'm not sure exactly what NTE is driving at by removing our ability as an audience to understand the most readily happy, enthusiastic character. She ends up seeming more fictional and more like a fantasy or conceit than any other character, and I have trouble squaring that with the way the narrative seems to want to present her as a kind of worthwhile destination or something to elevate above the rest of the cast. How can we fully understand what her nature is worth if it remains in media res from start to finish?

One interpretation is that "the rewards come later." That is, NTE presents Mari as a flat-trajectory cypher that Shinji's arc erratically bends toward because Shinji, window onto Mari for the unactualized, can't even begin to know her until he actualizes at the very end. He knows the other characters better, earlier, to the extent that they're damaged i.e. less perfect than Mari. In this interpretation Mari is not to be emulated, but just to be known, and if Mari represents something from the creator's personal life it's not an established wife (where much mystery has been resolved) but an earlier courtship of her, or even a gone-nowhere chance encounter with a different woman.

nerv bae wrote:One interpretation is that "the rewards come later." That is, NTE presents Mari as a flat-trajectory cypher that Shinji's arc erratically bends toward because Shinji, window onto Mari for the unactualized, can't even begin to know her until he actualizes at the very end. He knows the other characters better, earlier, to the extent that they're damaged i.e. less perfect than Mari. In this interpretation Mari is not to be emulated, but just to be known, and if Mari represents something from the creator's personal life it's not an established wife (where much mystery has been resolved) but an earlier courtship of her, or even a gone-nowhere chance encounter with a different woman.

That's a reading I've seen before, although you've articulated it the best so far. I suppose my hangups with that being the landing point to a tale about depression and avoidance of others is that it's placing too much weight and significance on first impressions, which are often illusory. People hitching their wagon to a star, falling head over heels with first impressions and rushing into things is often a recipe for disaster, once the serotonin depletes and comparisons begin to be made; "it seemed like it had so much more potential early on," "things aren't exciting anymore," etc. The narrative seems to disfavor Asuka, Rei, Kaworu, practically everyone on the grounds that baggage must be relocated, out of sight, out of mind, and that a fresh start is inherently more profound or reaffirming or worth embracing. And often that's true, and I can see how that marries into Eva's long-term fixation on the dynamics of sticking it out vs. running away, and the complicated nature of whether it's a strict good/bad dichotomy. Despite readings where Eva is made out to have a sticking it out = good, running away = bad moral alignment, Anno has stated otherwise. Perhaps it really is an embrace of total abandonment and taking a chance.

I've seen the sentiment before that the purpose of art is to make life easier to live and death easier to die, and that that often involves the difficult task of making the faults of life understandable, confrontational, coherent in a bearable way. And Eva seems like it's dealing with that kind of purposeful, meaningful interaction between narrative and viewer. But its instructions on this subject seem avoidant. It explores misery and destruction, but it doesn't have anything to say about recovery but that the the state of recovery itself ought to be sought. It positions environmental maintenance only within the context of a fictional series of entities being used in a certain way to cause destruction--once that's taken care of, all we get is a bustling live-action city and Shinji and Mari running off to do something, as if lack of total destruction means total freedom, nothing philosophically or materially left to consider. All that NTE's morality tale has pinpointed as harmful is closing oneself off and refusing to leave the past behind, and yet actual reality is a far more nuanced moral field where harm is committed not just by one misguided widower, but people intending to do good and who believe their actions are selfless.

All of that aside, a big, somewhat silly, subjective problem for me re: Mari is that, taken as a not yet fully known person, I'd have little interest in her or finding out who she really is based on who she is without context. If Mari is emblematic or a cypher, isn't it a disservice that she's nonetheless very narrow in terms of attitude? I don't think NTE is suggesting that only the enthusiastic are worthwhile to associate with, but when it treats its characters as actualized only when they're comfortable making lewd asides, drawing attention to their bodies, putting their lives at risk at the drop of a dime, etc., it's hard not to take it as worthy/unworthy categorization. We don't get to see any characters post-resolution except Shinji, so it's almost like the minute our sad characters un-sad, they cease to be appropriate fodder for the camera unless they Mari-ize. I suppose what I crave more from a narrative about failure to happy is how to sustain a motivating perceived meaning. The closest we get to some example of this is Toji and Hikari, but they're not particularly deeply-drawn characters. Get married = be happy is about all one can surmise from them, but like, I'm far more interested in the continuing struggle of the village compared to how it gets glossed over in the end, or whatever Asuka might get up to and struggle with now versus leaving her behind in shock and awe. In NTE's moral, psychological terrain, characters are either flawed and awaiting resolution and interesting because of it, or they're happy now and cease being dynamic but at least they're happy, so be happy? We don't see complicated people persist to be complicated post-resolution.

The other problem with jibing with this reading is that I don't feel as if Shinji is being positioned in the role of someone courting someone else on the basis of first impression--it's ambiguous if it's a romantic situation in the first place, but not only that, Shinji in this scene is as alienated from me as Mari ever was, as if the discontinuity between how he acts and his previous character to which I had a secondhand immersive access to is so great that he's now as contextless as Mari. So it feels like there are two contextless characters having this interaction, and because of zero access into either of them, there's no telling what angle the ending is supposed to have in sentiment other than feeling discontinuous. Perhaps that was the point, and it was a calculated move--create a formula for a last scene that rips the band-aid off what came before so completely, that every single aspect is unmoored except the sentiment that this unmooring needed to happen and was itself fundamentally good.

But I can't help but feel that it's leaving too many things unsaid, and favoring vague gestures toward what ifs, as if that itself is meaningful instead of a replacement for meaning. To my mind, any narrative can gesture toward what ifs or end its thesis on some kind of undeniable value assessment like "feeling good is good," but that it's easy to do so and isn't really substantive, but more like the impression of substance or a piggy-backing of self-evident truth. It's the difference between showing Mari is a bookworm by having her luridly pose by stacks of books in a skintight outfit, versus showing her reading or showing how literary inclinations have any bearing on her personality. Would she be read as "read" if it didn't show her books, or would the audience take her as merely a battle vixen with enthusiasm and earnest appeals to others to also be a go-getter? If the books aren't integral enough that their presence doesn't add anything but a command, "she is a reader, take her as such," it's another case of suggestion vs. demonstration.And if that's actually her role, and Mari isn't intended to demonstrate, but Shinji is, Thrice loses me there about halfway in; he abruptly changes following Rei Q's death and sternly marches toward the ending, where he lets up his buddha-like poker face only to comment on Mari's breasts. Taken as a journey from depression to actualization, it explores the stewing phase at length then skips B, C, and D.

This is what it feels like it's ultimately arguing: the characters were depressed because of Eva, Eva gets existentially subtracted, and now the drudgeries and existential pains of life, whatever they may be, couldn't possibly be any worse, so who cares? The way its characters get buried under the appeal prevents the appeal from being dialectic, but I'd almost say it doesn't even allow it to be didactic.

"Maybe you need to open yourself up to the new," "your pain is not just your own, others have their own pain," "the pain of your enemies is not so impossible to understand, after all," or whatever else you can say NTE is positing, isn't inherently bad advice, self-help, or commentary, but the delivery system NTE uses seems ramshackle in terms of accurately reflecting the ins and outs of what those mean beyond declarative truthisms, their full dynamics when applied to actual, deep human beings, because of how NTE fails to divulge its characters. In other words, if NTE is a personal metaphor above all, it's a rather solipsistic one that is almost blindly consumed with depression and recovery, at the expense of the greater world at large beyond one's immediate circle, or even the details that exist between the depression and recovery phases themselves. It's almost paradoxical; the narrative points to insularity as the gravest sin, yet it's a ridiculously insular view on insularity.

BernardoCairo wrote:The problem with Mari and most of what bothers me about NTE can be attributed to both Anno and Tsurumaki. These guys are great directors and have some really interesting ideas. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that NGE and EOE will go down in history as some of the best-directed pieces of animation ever. I don't even need to explain myself, as I've already done it innumerous times. Everything from the use of colors, cuts, audio and imagery in general is perfect. Episode 22' is quite virtually flawlessly in its execution, giving off that vibe of someone being raped without literally showing it to us. However, it's at the time of writing that I think these guys tend to slip up.
Don't get me wrong, the original series is very well written, with great dialogue that only enhances Anno's directorial skills. NTE, though, not so much. That's probably because while each episode of NGE had Anno's input in one way or another, they weren't all written directly by him. There was a whole team of people working to bring Anno's ideas to life and they were good (imagine working around all the radical and somewhat crazy changes your boss is proposing for a project and still creating a masterpiece). NTE, however, as far as I can tell, was mostly written by Anno and Tsurumaki. They weren't the only people behind it, but I believe Anno made sure to write each script himself and a film director can only go so far when it comes to writing.
That's not to say that the original series is perfect or that the movies are miserably written. Anno can write pretty well and I'm sure of that. However, the quality drop between one continuity and the other is noticeable and that goes far beyond time limitations and the movie format itself.

You know, that makes me remember of Georges Lucas, and how he had writers and people around him that gave him ideas and could refrain him when they thought that one of his ideas wasn't good, which played a big part of what made Star Wars' original trilogy the masterpiece it is.

Then 20 years later Lucas does the prequel trilogy, and this time is alone as a writer without anyone to refrain him and adapt his ideas, and we got... well the prequel trilogy. To give a simple example: from the beginning Lucas wanted Star Wars to have politics play a big part (the whole thing with the Imperial Senate that Tarkin just mentions in A New Hope should had been a sub-plot taking an entire part of the movie), but was convinced by his team (among them his wife IIRC) that it would drag on the plot and make the movie less enjoyable. And in the prequels, Lucas could add all the political plots he wanted, and these parts are widely considered as the weakest part of the movies. (notably with how much screentime it takes)
Not that the prequels didn't had good ideas: notably its commentary on the inaction and blindness of good people and how fear, corruption and populism can make a democracy fall (say what you want, but “So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause” is a great punchline to Palpatine's triumph), and several scenes of greatness (Maul and "Duel of the Fates", the duel between Anakin and Obiwan, Palpatine stealing every scene he's present, and Vader's birth -infamous "Nooooo" aside ), and with time people came to appreciate more the interesting things these movies had to say and show, especially with the subsequent raise of populism and fascism around the world, notably in the USA with Trump. (IMHO this new appreciation was also helped in no small part by to the then growing Internet meme culture and the contrast with the bland sequel trilogy)


And it's the same thing with NTE I think, there are good ideas both narratively and on more meta-level (in comparison to NGE): instead of the quiet sense of dread and certainty that humanity is doomed, having the theme of humanity able to work to overcome everything (even something as grave as the oceans being sterilized); explore more the theme of humanity and what it means to be human that was only scratched on the surface in NGE (with the addition of more clones, and the Curse of Eva and Angel contamination); what if instead of being doomed and clueless until it's too late, to have the good guys (chiefly among them Kaji and Misato) discover the big bad's conspiracy and being able to bring the fight to them; instead of having her in the sidelines unable to help the pilots, give Misato an actual mean to also fight (the Wunder); what if Asuka's problems weren't due to impossible self-imposed standards but an actual situation of life and death that she had to go through; what if Shinji's fear in NGE to ultimately screw up and be hated for it actually comes true...

Of course, the biggest is Mari: what if we take the old Evangelion formula, and bring in a new character that will shake things up to make the characters (and the plot) go to a different direction, the proverbial butterfly wing flapping that will make an hurricane on the other side of the planet, it's an interesting idea!
But here I think that Anno and Tsurumaki got the syndrome of "when all you have is a hammer", using her "breaking" purpose so much that the weight of most of the changes to bring the new plot to its conclusion rests on her shoulders, by tying her to nearly every big plots of the story: she's part of Kaji's spy ring to give him more "teeth" and freedom of action against SEELE and Gendo, she's part of the WILLE crew and is strongly implied to had helped Asuka keep together, giving them enough pilots to have a fighting chance against neo-NERV (not that they actually ever had one), she's "tied" to the plot of the people knowing the deepest secrets of the Evas (in NGE limited to SEELE, Gendo and Fuyu) so she could use her knowledge for the good guys (ex: how she knew that Shinji could be restored from Unit-01 and taking measures with Asuka so it would happen, knowing about how Minus Space works and being able to navigate it), she's also tied to the sub-plot of Fuyutsuki's conflicted loyalties by having them both secretly working together, which let her secretly move the strings behind the scene to ultimately give the victory to the good guys.
She even "hijacks" established events that initially carried on without her: she was the only who brought Gendo and Yui together (indirectly kickstarting the entire plot) when in NGE they didn't need a matchmaker, and she replaced Asuka against Zeruel to do the role she and Kaji did in NGE (fighting Zeruel and crashing on Shinji's shelter, then giving him some advice that will ultimately push him to get back to fight and destroy Zeruel).

The worst is that most of these either happen or are retroactively revealed in the last half of the last movie, whereas she didn't seemed to have much of an impact in the previous two movies: in 2.0 you can remove her fight against Tunniel (which didn't even existed in NGE) without impacting the plot, and against Zeruel she didn't do much more than what Asuka and Kaji did in NGE. In 3.0 she's implied to had helped Asuka keep it together for 14 years and accept to fight as a team, which is a "breaking" of the old NGE formula (the first one shown even) where the heroes were always desperately alone and unable to get the help they need, and aside of this, the rest of her time is literally support to Asuka in battle. (with a slight dash of wingwomaning Asuka about her feelings toward Shinji)

The thing is that at small doses, it actually works: as I wrote in one of the Mari threads, she works fantastically as a foil to Asuka's bitterness and depression, and just being here as an additional pilot and helping Asuka to keep it together (and even better herself in small dose) could be enough to change much of the dynamic between the good guys and the bad guys, the "butterfly wings flapping" I was talking about earlier, but instead we got the heavy-handed method that wielded her to nearly every plots to move the story forward. And in the end, by using her so much to "break" Eva and move the plot, it becomes detrimental to make her a character that feels like living in the world she's in. Even though according to interviews that was an intended effect, I feel that they could had better handled the balance between character and meta-tool.


And writing about Mari, it makes me realize that this is also the feeling I had toward Shinji but couldn't put words on it: Shinji becomes like Mari through the last movie, in that he doesn't feel like he belongs in the setting around him. First in the village, from the moment he goes out of his catatonia, he doesn't integrate among the village's community, or barely even interact with them, he's just here, doing the tasks assigned to him and then retreating to the ruins; similarly to Mari who while she's in the Wunder, doesn't seem to exist outside battle or in the scenes where she's with Asuka (even Asuka has a scene where she's talking with Sakura, and the crew mentions her during their lunch, not such things for Mari), in Shinji's case it's even more striking with the contrast with Rei Q, who very quickly becomes an integral part of the community.
Then from the moment Rei Q dies, Shinji transmutes into a Buddha like figure, carrying on with absolute conviction and without any doubt or fear remaining, and gains the same ability to "break" Evangelion than Mari: he then proceeds to break Misato out of her shell, break through Wunder crew's hatred, break the will of his father during his moment of triumph, then metaphorically breaks the very setting of NTE by trashing the sceneries one after the other: the model buildings of Tokyo-3, Misato's apartment, his old classroom, Kaworu's piano at neo-NERV HQ... before breaking the barrier between NGE and NTE, freely mixing and commenting on elements of both while being in the studios of the people who created them, surrounded by the props (real and imaginary) they used for their creative process, basically being in "God's workshop", and all culminating by Shinji literally breaking the fourth wall to end up in real life Ube City, Japan, 2021, ready to go to work.

And sure, the idea of Shinji becoming like the "breaker" of Evangelion to finish it off is an interesting idea, as a metaphor of Anno putting Evangelion behind him now that he's a changed man for example, but personally I would had preferred to have the story of Shinji finding his place in this strange and dangerous new world that's supposed to be his world now, and learning to mend things and living with the people that became so important to him despite the gap that the timeskip put between them.

similarly to Mari who while she's in the Wunder, doesn't seem to exist outside battle or in the scenes where she's with Asuka (even Asuka has a scene where she's talking with Sakura, and the crew mentions her during their lunch, not such things for Mari)

Interesting observation I never noticed before… I wonder if this was an intentional artistic choice or an unintended consequence of them generally just not allotting much screen time to Mari. I guess the implication is she just spends all day reading in her pod, but it IS kinda strange how she basically seems to stop existing outside of action scenes.

The Star Wars prequels really are the most apt comparison, aren’t they? Except add in some major doses of “making massive changes to the story in the middle”. Let’s just hope we never get an Evangelion equivalent of the Star Wars “sequel”/Disney trilogy, lmao.

Archer wrote:The Star Wars prequels really are the most apt comparison, aren’t they? Except add in some major doses of “making massive changes to the story in the middle”. Let’s just hope we never get an Evangelion equivalent of the Star Wars “sequel”/Disney trilogy, lmao.

I don't think Rebuild movies are so disliked as the prequels. Also, Anno seems to delegate in Rebuild more than George in the prequels.

In itself, I enjoyed Rebuild movies a lot more than NTE. So, I couldn't understand people saying the writing is worse in Rebuild movies.

I can only assume that’s a typo and that you mean you liked the Rebuilds better than NGE.

I’d like to hear why. I’ve already written a lot in other places about the major issues I have with the execution of ideas in the Rebuilds that it would take an entire essay to reiterate the things I feel are incredibly poorly written. But if you could give some specific examples of what you think the rebuilds do better it would help to focus the potential points of discussion. While I can understand someone liking the rebuilds more - personal opinion and all - I find it difficult to imagine a serious defense of the Rebuilds as better written than NGE.

Just for a quick short-list of the things I find horribly mishandled in the Rebuilds, given with no deep elaboration:
- Minor changes in Operation Yashima that undercut the slapdash desperation of the original, specifically the shield and rifle being changed from a repurposed space shuttle and an experimental weapon requisitioned from the military, to ready-made Eva-specific shield and rifle they just happened to have on hand
- Most of 2.0’s story being haphazardly cut up and stitched together with just the bare minimum of connective tissues holding it together
- The entirety of Asuka and Mari’s characterization in a story that clearly just did not have enough screen time for them
- Shinji and WILLE’s actions in 3.0 contradicting the (presumed) authorial intent of Shinji being selfish and immature while WILLE are the responsible adults
- Keeping the confusing events between N3I and 3I intact instead of rewriting around them once the plans changed
- The entirety of the second act of 3.0+1.0… this is some Hollywood-tier shit, and that is NOT a compliment.
- Most of the background lore that adds a ton of confusion while never amounting to much story-wise

Archer wrote:I can only assume that’s a typo and that you mean you liked the Rebuilds better than NGE.

I’d like to hear why. I’ve already written a lot in other places about the major issues I have with the execution of ideas in the Rebuilds that it would take an entire essay to reiterate the things I feel are incredibly poorly written. But if you could give some specific examples of what you think the rebuilds do better it would help to focus the potential points of discussion.

In itself, I was never a big fan of NGE. My interest really started when Asuka appeared, but I don't feel the story does something interesting with her until Episode 22 (where she falls on a trauma) and her story always seems relegated to Shinji.

Instead, I really enjoyed Rebuild movies (not so much 1.0). I liked characters like Rei II, Kaworu and Rei Q. I even liked Shinji more in this version.

I edited my post after you replied to add some specific things I think are poorly handled in the Rebuilds.

Rei(s) and Kaworu are the parts I would say are better than NGE for much the same reason that Asuka is worse: they actually have some screen time and character focus here, as opposed to Rei mostly disappearing for much of the latter half of NGE and Kaworu being in a grand total of 1 episode. Ultimately though that’s not enough to counteract the major issues in execution I have with other aspects of the series.

The way I see it is, while NGE has some issues with the writing, mostly due to the hectic production schedule, these issues for the most part do not affect the major narrative and thematic through-lines of the story. Whereas the Rebuild’s writing issues that I outlined in my above post actively undercut the story it is trying to tell.

Konja, NTE is not NGE. NTE means New Theatrical Edition and refer to the Rebuilds.
I'm really sorry, but I completely disagree with you. So much is done with Asuka before episode 22'. Episodes 8-10 are about introducing her, Episodes 11-15 (which is an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT EPISODE AND IS ALL ABOUT HER) establishes her character, Episodes 15-21 start to deconstruct her persona and then Episode 22' completely shatters her. Episode 22' only works because of the ground the previous episodes have established. To say the contrary is to pretty much admit that you barely put any effort in watching the show itself. Even if NGE only started to do things with her after 22' (which obviously isn't the case), it would still be more than what NTE did to Shikinami. She would still have, arguably, the best episode and the best movie of the franchise under her belt.

As for El's post, I absolutely agree. This is probably one of the best posts I've ever read here on Evageeks. Yeah, indeed, Shinji does turn into a sort of Mari in the end, which is odd, considering how abrupt his change was. He jumps from a negative arc into a flat arc in under five minutes and it all feels contrived and formulaic (while also being, somehow, confusing at the same time). But then again, it's NTE we're talking about. Good ideas, poor execution... Things happening out of thin air and not being properly explained... The usual stuff.

As for Kaworu, his character serves different purposes in the two continuities. In NGE, he's more like a twist on the monster of the week formula, which works very well in its own limited scope. It's not always about the screen time each character has to shine in the spotlight, but how they use it. Shikinami's problem is not that she doesn't have enough time to leave an impression, but the unfocused and uninteresting nature of her character, which resulted in the bland version of Asuka we see in these movies.

BernardoCairo wrote:As for El's post, I absolutely agree. This is probably one of the best posts I've ever read here on Evageeks.

Seconding this, it put me in a rush the whole time I was reading and it felt like it nailed things down I've only felt others (and myself) have danced around for quite a while.

Konja7 wrote:...and her story always seems relegated to Shinji.

I'm not sure it's possible for me to disagree with something more strongly than this.

It's not to be taken as seriously as the films themselves, but the -120 min. manga immediately pops into my head as illustrative of how Asuka's character is envisioned by Khara, and it's someone whose entire characterization is explored with regards to whether or not Shinji is paying her the right attention. Maybe this is the first time she's dwelled in a while, given the situation, but there's seemingly little interest in showing us an Asuka not dependent on Shinji for every beat of characterization, and it's consistent throughout all the Rebuilds.

The difference here between NTE and NGE regarding Asuka explored as "Asuka" and Asuka explored as "Asuka in relation to Shinji" seems so self-evident to me, outside of me writing a huge essay I can only recommend rewatching it all and summarizing & analyzing each Asuka scene and asking if it's actively relegated to Shinji and then doing a comparison. One that comes to mind would be an integral building block, her backstory--in NGE it's a tragedy involving her mother, and her mother remains an important character detail. In NTE it's a cloning facility that Shinji was present at and while it serves to inform her tragedy, it's a tragedy in direct relation to Shinji.

Another big one would be her character resolution--in EoTV she gets a lengthy inner monologue that is about a more core personal dynamic/dilemma and not directly revolving around Shinji specifically. In EoE she gets to stubbornly defy Shinji with both compassion and cutting honesty. In Thrice she gets a measly minute or so inner monologue and then gets talked at by Shinji, who does the entire effort of giving her a solution, and chooses to enact the solution for her, all without us getting any kind of intimate insight into Asuka's character and how she views what's happening/going to happen, beyond blushing over her 14-year persisting schoolgirl crush, and then she doesn't get to say any lines.

BernardoCairo wrote:Konja, NTE is not NGE. NTE means New Theatrical Edition and refer to the Rebuilds.
I'm really sorry, but I completely disagree with you. So much is done with Asuka before episode 22'. Episodes 8-10 are about introducing her, Episodes 11-15 (which is an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT EPISODE AND IS ALL ABOUT HER) establishes her character, Episodes 15-21 start to deconstruct her persona and then Episode 22' completely shatters her. Episode 22' only works because of the ground the previous episodes have established. To say the contrary is to pretty much admit that you barely put any effort in watching the show itself. Even if NGE only started to do things with her after 22' (which obviously isn't the case), it would still be more than what NTE did to Shikinami. She would still have, arguably, the best episode and the best movie of the franchise under her belt.

I mixed NTE and NGE.

Saying they didn't do much with Asuka was unfair. After all, I really like Asuka in NGE because of her characterization and her conflicts.

However, I always felt that the character was not used enough. (and her resolution wasn't so satisfactory). I always feel she was playing second fiddle to Shinji.


I totally agree that Asuka in NGE is better character than Asuka in Rebuild (even if you only include the events after 22'). That's why I didn't mention Asuka between the characters I really enjoy in Rebuild.

That said, I feel Asuka was fine in Rebuild. She doesn't have a big role in this movies, but she isn't a really bad character either.

Axx°N N. wrote:It's not to be taken as seriously as the films themselves, but the -120 min. manga immediately pops into my head as illustrative of how Asuka's character is envisioned by Khara, and it's someone whose entire characterization is explored with regards to whether or not Shinji is paying her the right attention. Maybe this is the first time she's dwelled in a while, given the situation, but there's seemingly little interest in showing us an Asuka not dependent on Shinji for every beat of characterization, and it's consistent throughout all the Rebuilds.

I think there is a little confusion. It's not that I don't know that Asuka's character story in Rebuild is pretty dependent on Shinji. What happens is that this doesn't bother me because I don't care much about Asuka in Rebuild.

That said, I don't think Asuka is bad written in Rebuild. She is a good enough character for the role she has in these movies.


Now, the reason I feel Asuka plays second fiddle to Shinji in NGE is because I feel her conflicts (and resolution) ended up relegated in the story. Even her big moment in EoE needs to be ruined.

Personally, I would also have liked to see Asuka win some battle alone in NGE.

Doble post; merged - JoelcrNeto

I see, sorry for the misinterpretation.

Konja7 wrote:Now, the reason I feel Asuka plays second fiddle to Shinji in NGE is because I feet her conflicts (and resolution) ended up relegated in the story. Even her big moment in EoE needs to be ruined.

Personally, I would also have liked to see Asuka win some battle alone in NGE.

I guess this is where it becomes subjective, because I personally have no issue with Asuka not having a win. To me, there's a victory to her battle even though she ultimately loses--or to put it another way, she wins because she manages to not just give it her all but want to give it her all. Something about it gives me huge feelings of affirmation of life, and the scene is always cathartic to me. It doesn't matter that she loses the actual battle, because she won an inner battle. Or to put it a third way, she achieved victory in something she could control, and it's not undermined just because something she couldn't control (being outpowered by industrial eldritch monstrosities) usurps her will in the end. Are our own lives meaningless just because death wins out in the end, or in spite of it?

It's that kind of catharsis and nuance I find lacking in Thrice. Thrice seems to believe (and promote the attitude/belief) that things aren't meaningful unless they result in a satisfactory happy end.

Yeah not gonna lie I don’t really get it. Her ultimately failing to defeat the MPE’s and dying horrifically at their hands is what elevates that fight scene from “pretty damn good” to “one of the best fight scenes in anime, possibly ever”. Axon already explained it about as well as it could be said in the above post so I don’t really have any more to add.

Just compare it to the equivalent scene in the Rebuilds, where Mari and Asuka face off against the horde of skelevangelions and then Mari 1v4’s Mks 9-12. The action is completely weightless, both literally and thematically - it’s just visual fluff, there’s absolutely no stakes here when they’re flying around a black void mowing down hundreds if not thousands of mindless NPCs with little effort.

Archer wrote:Just for a quick short-list of the things I find horribly mishandled in the Rebuilds, given with no deep elaboration:
- Minor changes in Operation Yashima that undercut the slapdash desperation of the original, specifically the shield and rifle being changed from a repurposed space shuttle and an experimental weapon requisitioned from the military, to ready-made Eva-specific shield and rifle they just happened to have on hand

The Rebuild rifle is still an experimental weapon requisitioned from the military.

Axx°N N.#936774 wrote:tl;dr, I'm not sure exactly what NTE is driving at by removing our ability as an audience to understand the most readily happy, enthusiastic character. She ends up seeming more fictional and more like a fantasy or conceit than any other character, and I have trouble squaring that with the way the narrative seems to want to present her as a kind of worthwhile destination or something to elevate above the rest of the cast. How can we fully understand what her nature is worth if it remains in media res from start to finish?

For a long time I too held this same opinion, and even now, Mari is far from being one of my favorite Evangelion characters or even memorable as an anime icon to begin with.

But after some thinking today, my perspective on Evangelion as a whole has changed.

Prior to Neon Genesis Evangelion hitting Netflix, I think the series was a lot less popular than it is now. In 2019, there was a lot of media attention on Eva for that very reason, so the hype really blew up around then. I noticed a lot of articles and video essays essentially making the case for watching Evangelion because of its themes and how "the message" is universal and can basically resonate with everyone. It did with me back when I was younger. Although I wish more people were open-minded, I now more than ever understand how Evangelion can not resonate with certain viewers and in fact isolates many viewers.

Taking a step back, when Anno wrote Evangelion, he was essentially engaging in projection. He was projecting different parts of himself and his personality onto the characters, while also using them to represent society, particularly Otakus. I do think that Eva does do a good job depicting the kind of people that make up its viewer base. But not people who are turned off by Evangelion. Eva paints people too broadly, as though every individual uses various mediums of escapism to blunt the emotional suffering caused by rejection and/or self-perceived inadequacies. And sure, everybody is dealing with something that causes them some form of depression, but not to the extent Evangelion makes it out to be. Particularly in End of Evangelion. The emotionally unenlightened masses choose their orange Fanta sea instead of facing reality and reimagining their human forms like Shinji and Asuka. What else am I supposed to take away from that? Moreover, I think community interpretations of escapism vs reality have really muddied the waters of honest discussion around the series and its themes. Not all escapism is bad. Some escapism is good. Endlessly overanalyzing ones own flaws only to re-arrive at the same conclusion that one can accept who they are as a person over and over again is not therapeutically valid, it will only eventually lead to a brain aneurysm. It makes sense to feel that way after an initial viewing, but this lack of a philosophy has unfortunately come to dominate discussions around the original series as well as NGE vs NTE.

Speaking of the protagonist, I think a lot of viewers end up projecting onto Shinji. While this may not be true for everyone, I think it explains why so many fans hate Shin Evangelion. Anno essentially removes peoples' coping mechanism that is the original Shinji Ikari and replaces it with the more emotionally mature new 3.0+1.0 Shinji at the end of the quadrilogy. This forces the viewer to stop projecting onto Shinji, and accept the fact that they need to leave their baggage behind them and move on. When I saw the train sequence in theaters I felt inside myself (and, perhaps with the rest of the fandom) a gag reflex in reaction to this, and yeh, on my way home I felt sick, emotionally conflicted, and disappointed. But now I understand that was the whole point. And it resonates with me now, even more so than EoE, because in that ending we simply see Shinji relapse in the last scene even after having all of those revelations. One feels like a white pill and the other one feels like a black pill. It goes without saying that End of Evangelion is clearly the more well written, artistically superb, beautifully animated film. But what's the point? If you were to put End of Evangelion and Shin Evangelion in front of me and said, "Okay, right now you're going to watch one of these movies", I would honestly choose the new one. Because I prefer how it makes me feel vs End of Evangelion. EoE Shinji doesn't resonate with me as a 28 year old adult. He lacks self-control, which is evident from the scene in which he masturbates over comatose Asuka. 3.0+1.0 Shinji honors Asuka both in reality and instrumentality, and arguably learns more about her than he ever had before, and in turn she honors him. I've heard people complain endlessly about how Asuka was handled but Shin was honestly such a good bookend to their relationship as characters. I don't see how anyone could possibly interpret 3.0+1.0 as a vapid ending. It did so much justice to the characters.

So, in the end, as the years go by and NTE continues to stew while the hype wears off, I do believe it will totally unjustifiably come to be hated by the fandom who need the original ending as their own coping mechanism. So many are already decided that NTE is nothing more than a soulless cashgrab as opposed to the beautiful piece of art it truly is, but hey, that's my interpretation. But I can no longer ignore the flaws of the original Evangelion and have serious questions of my own about its' artistic validity as a whole.

That's my hot take for today and I'm going to go back to Sonic 3 and Knuckles now.

I don't fully agree with the perspective on Anno's motivations, but I do strongly want to echo the part on projection and the last paragraph as a whole.
NTE is not perfect by any stretch. But neither is NGE, yet it is commonly put on a pedestol as this impeccable work beyond criticism except for that one episode that everyone has decided should be hated. There is such a thing as baseline objectivity in writing; something openly contradicting previously established canon without being an intentional subversion through exploiting audience assumptions is bad. Ep 24's continuity being a hot mess that is only made worse by the director's cut is objectively bad. But that does not automatically spoil the whole, neither does a lack of such flaws automatically constitute a masterpiece.

So much of the NGE vs NTE discourse (the fact that it is most commonly regarded as a vs discourse itself is a problem - if you are hellbent on one being better than the other, it is only natural that bad takes are going to follow) is rooted in nostalgia goggles and an inability to differentiate between personal first impression and other valid interpretations. Of course, it is only human to stay one's ground, defend the things you like and try to give reasons for the things you dislike; however, both of these all too quickly escalate into their extremes, which leads to threads precisely like this one where the very title and premise is already a prime example of bad faith media criticism, the work being fundamentally called into question on its artistic merit, placing the burden of proof on those liking it to justify their enjoyment, rather than being allowed to stand on its own feet.

To loosely quote Overly Sarcastic Productions' Red on the matter; if you're looking for things to be upset about in a story, you will find them, and if a culture develops around dragging things down, there will be little gain from discussing media in that circle.

Nostalgia goggles? I don't think so. I actually watched 1.11 before NGE. Years before, in fact. It's been like what? Three years since I watched NGE? So my connection to that is not rooted in nostalgia at all.
I can give valid reasons why NTE is a hot mess and why poorly written aspects of it drag down the experience far more than anything we saw in Episode 24'.
Cancelling the production of an entire movie, but still making it a part of your canon? Poor decision. Going out of your way to create a new character only to not utilize it properly, while making it an integral part of everything that differentiates your new product from your old one? Stupidly confusing. Continuing to introduce new characters only to not develop them in any meaningful way, while your protagonists have to go through sudden changes for lack of screen time? Questionable. Making everything confusing for the sake of it and nothing more? Well, I can keep going...
Objectivity exists. We're not critics or anything, but we're not stupid either. It is impossible to stay in a inert mindset. We will voice our opinions and some of it will not be subjective at all. That said, some of it will. We can complain about the lack of introspection, character driven scenes, realism, visual direction and all those other things that are a part of EVA in our minds, but are missing from NTE. That will mostly be subjective for sure. Problems regarding the way the staff chose to write and present the story to us... Well, that's a whole other conversation (in which we have to take the development hell that was these movies' production into consideration, for example).

Things like Asuka's character as a whole will be questioned by most people who sit back and think about it for a second or two. It would be so much easier for me to keep defending the way she was written again and again, instead of admitting that she turned out to be underwhelming. It's Asuka, everyone knows that she's my favorite and means a lot to me as a character. But I just can't close my eyes and pretend they didn't drop the ball and wrote an uninteresting character with shallow, muddled motivations that are bounded by a distinct lack of interesting scenes and a three minute conclusion full of exposition. I also can't pretend like the second third of Shin is a waste of time that drags for too long... It is how it is.

I see "bad faith" thrown around a lot to characterize people who criticize NTE, but I find it really bad faith, not to mention verging on ad hominem, to characterize a person or entire group of people based on if they liked or didn't like something, and then invent reasons and throw them around like they're self-evident instead of just wild assumptions. Which seems to me like an attempt to cast criticism as illegitimate in some way, because you can say, "it's not the critic or criticism per se, but their criticism is illegitimate because they're not truly critiquing, they're actually just *insert assumption about their intention, motivation, psychology, history here.*"

The argument being made seems to be: someone can only be wrong or misguided if they prefer NGE to NTE, because it's somehow a fact they can only come to this destination through biased, faulty, poorly thought through means.

Blockio wrote:To loosely quote Overly Sarcastic Productions' Red on the matter; if you're looking for things to be upset about in a story, you will find them, and if a culture develops around dragging things down, there will be little gain from discussing media in that circle.

Case in point, those with criticism for NTE are apparently just "looking for things to be upset about" and acting in a hivemind fashion, a sheep instructed by malignant culture with no independent thought--instead of, you know, a person who didn't like a movie and wants to explore why.

Blockio wrote:...where the very title and premise is already a prime example of bad faith media criticism, the work being fundamentally called into question on its artistic merit, placing the burden of proof on those liking it to justify their enjoyment, rather than being allowed to stand on its own feet.

Not to say you're unaware, but just to be clear, the title was given by the mod who split the thread. Nonetheless, I don't see what's wrong with discussing something's artistic merit as a premise. Nobody is putting the burden of proof on those who disagree, it's just a mode of analyzing something; I don't think my dislike needs to have anything to do with anyone's like, or in any case, if my dislike calls anything into question, it would no matter what the thread is titled, right? So again, it comes down to this notion that the dislike is inherently wrong.

As for nostalgia goggles or things standing on their own, for what it's worth, I know several people who only watched NGE & EOE as preparation for NTE, because of the massive hype surrounding "this super famous, super long-going anime franchise is finally ending," and they all preferred NGE & EOE and had less than kind words for NTE. Echoing Bernardo, I also got into NGE backwards from NTE, having seen 1.0 and 2.0 first.

roblucci01 wrote:The emotionally unenlightened masses choose their orange Fanta sea instead of facing reality and reimagining their human forms like Shinji and Asuka. What else am I supposed to take away from that?

I always took it that they were merely the first to choose to return. Out of all mankind, I'd say they're likely candidates for having had the most visceral, vivid, soul-testing experience and thus it's logical they above others would strive to live. Shinji's last experience was choosing this for all mankind, and Asuka's was an epiphanic blaze of glory psychological and physical fight for survival. How is this giving the rest of humanity less agency than Shinji just choosing an outcome and it happening for everyone? I don't see anything of a relapse in the ending, or at least, I don't think the relapse undermines anything, unless you're promoting the attitude that relapse should never occur, ever, forever, and if it does it undermines everything prior and to come afterward. He relapses but it's not like it cuts to END while he's choking her, it cuts to END after she reaches out, consoles him, and he loosens his grip and cries. I don't see how you can read that as single-dimensionally as you've put it.

I honestly don't get the "not therapeutically valid" point because I feel like it stems from a pessimistic reading. In lieu of having some kind of coda, "I will get lost again, I have to learn how to accept that I will get lost again, it doesn't mean I'm damaged," which to me has been extremely therapeutically helpful--everyone gets lost anyway. It's not like this mindset is inducing this cycle, or if that's actually your point, I disagree. I think it's the stuff of films that avoid reality to suggest there's an iron-clad state of mind or perfect altering event which will allow you to never be sad again, and I don't even think Thrice is one of those films, as EOE's coda is along the lines of what Hikari says about ups and downs. I think Thrice poorly expresses this idea overall, but I don't think Anno is actually admonishing the audience to leave all pain behind and become perfect buddhas. I'm yet to be convinced that the tone of the ending isn't biographical in relationship to Anno, and is instead some kind of instruction to stop liking EOE or something. You bring up "the fandom" and how they'll hate NTE unjustifiably because they "need the coping mechanism of EOE," but aren't you interpreting Thrice as a coping mechanism? You say you'd rather watch it than EoE because of how it makes you feel. Is it a better coping mechanism, therefore you're more correct? How can you presume to know someone else's relationship with the original in a way where you can confidently say it's less healthy?

And speaking of "vs" mindsets in reading Eva, isn't casting EOE as "for the stunted" and Thrice "for the mature" doing exactly that?

roblucci01 wrote:One feels like a white pill and the other one feels like a black pill. It goes without saying that End of Evangelion is clearly the more well written, artistically superb, beautifully animated film. But what's the point?

Well, I don't see why you wouldn't want to watch something well done, superb or beautiful in and of itself, and would rather watch (these are my own feelings) many poorly directed, poorly paced clunky exposition and action scenes because it ends with characters smiling and happy, as if that's in and of itself a benchmark for being morally correct. I personally don't feel uplifted by Thrice, because to me it resembles random abrupt happy endings that aren't justified, which is a feature of any assortment of story in any popular medium. You can channel flip and find an endless supply of media telling you to be happy, instructing you on how to be happy, or shaming you for not being happy. And to be clear, it's not like I'm some kind of happy-hating jaded misanthrope that wants everyone to suffer--Wild Strawberries is a wonderful film about happy people and finding happiness. The difference is that it's well written, superb, and beautifully shot. If NGE is making an unrealistic case for what people are hiding in their psyche (I personally don't agree), I'd say Thrice is making an unrealistic case about how it's solved. I've seen few things that rival NGE & EOE's expression of trauma and mental illness; I've seen far better expressions than Thrice for what to do about it, and that includes EOE.

roblucci01 wrote:3.0+1.0 Shinji honors Asuka both in reality and instrumentality, and arguably learns more about her than he ever had before, and in turn she honors him. I've heard people complain endlessly about how Asuka was handled but Shin was honestly such a good bookend to their relationship as characters. I don't see how anyone could possibly interpret 3.0+1.0 as a vapid ending. It did so much justice to the characters.

Ok, but how? I've seen long, detailed write-ups of how Asuka was failed, I don't see any arguments here for why justice or honor was done.

Shin was honestly such a good bookend to their relationship as characters. I don't see how anyone could possibly interpret 3.0+1.0 as a vapid ending. It did so much justice to the characters.

Yeah but Shikinami isn’t Soryu. At most you can say that the ending does justice to the relationship between NTE Shinji and Asuka Shikinami. Which I still disagree with (mostly because their relationship in the Rebuilds has little substance or foundation to begin with), but even if I accepted that to be true, it has zero bearing on NGE Shinji and Asuka Soryu’s relationship because they’re not the same characters.

Pretty much the only thing Shikinami and Soryu share are their name (not even all of it), face (until Shikinami gets an eyepatch) and the broad strokes of their personality. And we’re talking REALLY broad strokes here: Shikinami is a more or less played-straight tsundere whereas Soryu is much more abrasive and unlikable, meant to highlight the negative traits of the archetype. Their relationship with Shinji is also just wildly different, where Soryu is never honest with herself about her feelings for him, whereas Shikinami directly competes for Shinji’s affection with Rei by cooking for him in her underwear. They’re just far too different on a very fundamental level for anything Shikinami does to reflect back on Soryu.

Axx°N N. wrote:

roblucci01#936838 wrote:3.0+1.0 Shinji honors Asuka both in reality and instrumentality, and arguably learns more about her than he ever had before, and in turn she honors him. I've heard people complain endlessly about how Asuka was handled but Shin was honestly such a good bookend to their relationship as characters. I don't see how anyone could possibly interpret 3.0+1.0 as a vapid ending. It did so much justice to the characters.

Ok, but how? I've seen long, detailed write-ups of how Asuka was failed, I don't see any arguments here for why justice or honor was done.

If you mean "here" more broadly than this topic, my recollection is that there's a metric kiloton of arguments that justice and honor were done in Meldon's topic from last year.