Kaji

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AWinters
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Kaji

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Postby AWinters » Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:55 pm

In Kaji's final episode:
He knew that rescuing Fuyutsuki was going to get him killed. What was so important to Kaji about Fuyutsuki's role that he would give his life to get him out of there?

He told Fuyutsuki while he was rescuing him that he just wanted to get to the truth, but he knew he was going to be killed there and then and had no means of telling anyone his findings.
I just doubt he would give his life for a truth that he would have to take straight to the grave. Just didn't make sense to me.

Did Kaji have a preference for how it should all end? Did Fuyutsuki have an important role in that outcome? Or perhaps, was Kaji preventing certain information from being extracted from Fuyutsuki, information that would have given Seele the upper hand?

Theories, anyone?

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Re: Kaji

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Postby Lavinius » Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:29 pm

View Original PostAWinters wrote:In Kaji's final episode:
He knew that rescuing Fuyutsuki was going to get him killed. What was so important to Kaji about Fuyutsuki's role that he would give his life to get him out of there?

He told Fuyutsuki while he was rescuing him that he just wanted to get to the truth, but he knew he was going to be killed there and then and had no means of telling anyone his findings.
I just doubt he would give his life for a truth that he would have to take straight to the grave. Just didn't make sense to me.

Did Kaji have a preference for how it should all end? Did Fuyutsuki have an important role in that outcome? Or perhaps, was Kaji preventing certain information from being extracted from Fuyutsuki, information that would have given Seele the upper hand?

Theories, anyone?

I assume that, ja, Kaji was letting Fuyutsuki go so Seele wouldn't gain the upper hand somehow. I don't know if Kaji was actively on Gendou's side, but he probably knew that Gendou and Fuyu were the only ones capable of resisting Seele at that point and that they were planning to do something with Instrumentality other than just basically kill everyone.

I don't think Kaji exactly knew he would die, just that he was absolutely putting himself in the crosshairs and that Seele (who apparently control a lot of Nerv's own intelligence section, which is why Gendou uses Kaji for important assignments) would kill him as soon as they got the chance. As it turns out, they quickly did get that chance.

Kaji Lives Theory  SPOILER: Show
Although with the very ambiguous way his death scene is shot there's no real reason to think that Kaji wasn't the one who fired the gunshot and that he didn't just go into hiding after that to protect Misato.
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Re: Kaji

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Postby AWinters » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:37 am

That's an interesting thought.
Evidence at the start of the episode shows that at the least, he knew he was never coming back.

I think that it's more likely that he was killed because I don't think he could have got away alive after killing a Seele agent.
The sound of a gunshot would have had him surrounded.

I still don't understand how the hell he even managed to get Fuyutsuki safely to the exit without being apprehended.

Come to think of it: where are Seele? Are they located in a wing of NERV HQ or did Kaji have to infiltrate Seele's own separate HQ to rescue Fuyutsuki?
That was all very unclear to me.
Last edited by AWinters on Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kaji

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Postby Lavinius » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:35 am

View Original PostAWinters wrote:I think that it's more likely that he was killed because I don't think he could have got away alive after killing a Seele agent.
The sound of a gunshot wound have had him surrounded.

He does say that he put the guards to sleep, so he probably didn't fire any shots.
It makes sense that he'd stay non-lethal- the guards probably have no idea what they're dealing with. Much like the prime minister and JSSDF in EoE, they've probably been told that Nerv is under suspicion of trying to cause Third Impact, not knowing that the ones who are telling them this are trying to do even worse.

I still don't understand how the hell he even managed to get Fuyutsuki safely to the exist without being apprehended.

Come to think of it: where are Seele? Are they located in a wing of NERV HQ or did Kaji have to infiltrate Seele's own separate HQ to rescue Fuyutsuki?
That was all very unclear to me.

I'm not really sure, and the show doesn't explain much of the geography. When he calls Misato at the beginning of the episode, he seems to be out in the open, pretty far from the city, so it seems likely Fuyu was probably being held at a Seele stronghold somewhere else in Japan. Definitely not main Seele Headquarters though, which I assume is in Germany since that's where Kiel is and the Adam sample was being kept. (I wonder if Asuka ever saw Kiel?)

As for how Kaji got in... he might not have gone in guns-a-blazing. It's interesting that Nerv Intelligence, the Men in Black, tell Misato that they think Kaji is behind Fuyu getting abducted. It could be a lie, but it might also be possible that Seele did order him to help them snatch Fuyu, to prove his loyalty. So Kaji might have entered the base again, to free Fuyu, as a friendly. Once he'd done that though, Seele had proof that he was a traitor to them, and had him eliminated at the next opportunity.
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Postby thewayneiac » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:31 pm

Kaji: Besides, it looks like they'll find out that I diverted the sample of Adam to Commander Ikari, so I have to guard my own interests too, or various bad things will happen.”


I think he means that if Fuyutsuki kept talking they would learn Kaji stole the Adam sample. He interrupted the interrogation before it reached that point.
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Re: Kaji

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Postby glitz2hard » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:35 pm

The hiding theory is very valid, and personally was the conclusion I came to on my first watch. In the end, it doesn't matter though, because everybody's LCL now (mostly kidding about it not mattering)
sorry, i'm tired and not making a ton of sense. good night.

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Re: Kaji

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Postby AWinters » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:55 pm

It still bugs me that it doesn't look like his expected death served a purpose.
I think it would have made a lot more sense if the microchip gave Misato the location of another device that had remotely recorded the entire conversation between Fuyutsuki and SEELE.
It would have been interesting to see her reaction to NERV's backstory and it would have given Kaji's sacrifice a purpose.

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Postby Kendrix » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:25 am

I don't think it was really about Fuyutsuki & more about defying SEELE one time too many/ knowing too much. They weren't gonna let him live no matter what.
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Postby AWinters » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:18 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I don't think it was really about Fuyutsuki & more about defying SEELE one time too many/ knowing too much. They weren't gonna let him live no matter what.


I got the impression that he would be killed because he released Fuyutsuki, which he could have avoided by not abducting him in the first place.

Something just isn't adding up and I feel like I've either missed something or something has been left out of the story.
It looks like he got himself killed without anything being gained from it.

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Postby Zusuchan » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:10 am

If I remember correctly, Kaji being a spy working for himself was a known fact for both Seele and Nerv, both of whom therefore had reasons to ensure his death, especially since he was getting closer to rather heavy secrets. Him directly defying Seele by helping Fuyutsuki escape was therefore, I guess, sort of the final straw and the action that led to him being finally killed once and for all.

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Postby AWinters » Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:15 pm

I'm back and just gonna reuse this thread since the subject is still relevant..

In the first episode of Kaji being present he seems to stir up drama between everyone and I can't work out why.
He brought up his relationship with Misato in front of Asuka (knowing how she feels about him) and then praised Shinji in front of her, knowing (as her personal coach) that she's worked her ass off to get where she is.
He then proceeded to rub it in while talking to Asuka outside on the deck.
He did a good job of ensuring they all got off to a bad start by throwing sh*t in the fan and briskly leaving.
An episode later he came up with a plan for Asuka to move in with Misato and Shinji, which I suspect he partially did to make matters worse (and because Kaji really didn't want to end up living with Asuka).
I wonder if he was doing all this for his own amusement or if it was part of a bigger plan.

(I may be back with more questions here. I find Kaji to be the most interesting character).

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Re: Kaji

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Postby cyharding » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:02 am

View Original PostAWinters wrote:He brought up his relationship with Misato in front of Asuka (knowing how she feels about him) and then praised Shinji in front of her, knowing (as her personal coach) that she's worked her ass off to get where she is.
He then proceeded to rub it in while talking to Asuka outside on the deck.

You have to realize that we learn in episode 22' that she came onto him the night before. I think this was his attempt to have her focus her attention on someone more age appropriate.

He did a good job of ensuring they all got off to a bad start by throwing sh*t in the fan and briskly leaving.

I don't think an Angel attack was planned, and we find out later in the episode that he was carrying Adam, which we learn later is not a good idea to have an Angel get to.

Anno was giving answers to questions the audience wouldn't think of asking at the time.

An episode later he came up with a plan for Asuka to move in with Misato and Shinji, which I suspect he partially did to make matters worse (and because Kaji really didn't want to end up living with Asuka).

It was the best plan in the timeframe that they had, plus it would reenforce my first point.
I don't think it was to make matters worse, but to make them better for humanity to have a fighting chance.
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Postby AWinters » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:03 pm

View Original Postcyharding wrote:I don't think an Angel attack was planned, and we find out later in the episode that he was carrying Adam, which we learn later is not a good idea to have an Angel get to.

Sorry I was a bit cryptic, it was late. By "throwing the sh*t in the fan and leaving" I meant on a social level in the cafeteria scene.

My concern is whether he had an ulterior motive as it came across like he deliberately made a mess by giving Asuka a reason to hate Misato and Shinji right off the bat.
Or perhaps it was a petty response to Misato rejecting him.

Another thing I'm wondering:
Did Kaji lie to Misato about Lilith? He knew it wasn't Adam, but he told her it was. I wonder how much fabricated info he gave her.

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Re: Kaji

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Postby TehDonutKing » Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:50 pm

View Original PostAWinters wrote:Sorry I was a bit cryptic, it was late. By "throwing the sh*t in the fan and leaving" I meant on a social level in the cafeteria scene

I think he's just a bit of a gadfly desu. Causing socially awkward situations for your own amusement can be pretty fun sometimes, and Kaji definitely has a goofier side to him.
/hj

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Postby thewayneiac » Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:22 pm

View Original PostAWinters wrote:Another thing I'm wondering:
Did Kaji lie to Misato about Lilith? He knew it wasn't Adam, but he told her it was. I wonder how much fabricated info he gave her.


Perhaps he thought Gendo had grown the white giant from the Adam Sample he brought him.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
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I'm perfect, are you?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:45 pm

Long time no see, Wayne!

And to further back Wayneiac's point, the idea that Gendo had grown the Adam embryo into a full-size giant is hinted at throughout the series. Gendo and Fuyutsuki refer to Lilith as "Adam" in Episodes 13 and 15 - possibly to fool the Nerv personnel who know that there's an Angel held captive deep underground. It's quite conceivable that Kaji didn't know better when he showed Lilith to Misato.

For that matter, it is never clear how much Kaji knows about the truth and when. He does seem to have possession of all the key information by the time of his death since he's able to pass it on to Misato by the time of EoE, but we have very little info otherwise.
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Re: Kaji

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Postby WDS » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:26 pm

View Original PostAWinters wrote:Come to think of it: where are Seele? Are they located in a wing of NERV HQ or did Kaji have to infiltrate Seele's own separate HQ to rescue Fuyutsuki?
That was all very unclear to me.


NERV is equipped with a holodeck that allows SEELE members in different countries to have Zoom meetings. It only works when the lights are off.

View Original PostAWinters wrote:Another thing I'm wondering:
Did Kaji lie to Misato about Lilith? He knew it wasn't Adam, but he told her it was. I wonder how much fabricated info he gave her.


I see two possibilities:

1) Kaji just expected Adam to get that big that quickly and be missing its legs for no particular reason (or at least wasn't surprised by it)

2) Anno was making shit up as he went along, and by the time he got to episode 15, he forgot what happened in episode 8


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