The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Archer » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:17 am

My gut instinct is that, assuming the film remains identical, the reaction would’ve skewed much more negative. I can’t help but feel that a LOT of flaws of the movie were overlooked simply because people were so starved for content by the near decade long wait.

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Postby 2Lacissal2 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:00 pm

I'm interested in the timeline where the near decade long release gap happened between 2.0 and Q.

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Postby DantesInferno » Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:24 am

View Original Post2Lacissal2 wrote:I'm interested in the timeline where the near decade long release gap happened between 2.0 and Q.


That would have been brutal to the audience! The in-universe 14 year gap alone was already enough to alienate everyone, imagine getting that instead of the teased third movie after a ten year wait!

I do think that the gap was a masterpiece narrative device, in that it gets the audience in the same position as Shinji, basically (i.e. ,very disoriented); and perfectly executed too.

In the context of the series, it did suck because we were left with such high expectations for resolution after the massive cliffhanger at the end of 2.0.

But ten years later, now that the disorientation has worn out, the movie still has great rewatch value and is very enjoyable to me at least. I still rewatch it from time to time.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:59 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:That would have been brutal to the audience! The in-universe 14 year gap alone was already enough to alienate everyone, imagine getting that instead of the teased third movie after a ten year wait!

I do think that the gap was a masterpiece narrative device, in that it gets the audience in the same position as Shinji, basically (i.e. ,very disoriented); and perfectly executed too.


The staff originally has plans for a Third movie without Shinji, where we see the events after the N3I. However, it's pretty possible the 14 year timeskip would still be a surprise for the audience in the last movie.

I suspect they never planned to show the events during the 14 years, but only until the Third Impact (which happened some months after N3I). That's why so many events seem to happen between the N3I and the Third Impact.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:57 pm

I’m gonna come out and say it…

I respect Anno for not making a movie about the 14-year gap. It’s more fun that way. Especially for a movie series that focuses solely more on Shinji than NGE ever did, having a movie where we never see him would be weird. Unless, of course, it’s a movie that focuses on mainly Shinji’s mind trip throughout those 14 years. I would really respect Anno if he made a feature length film told in the style of EoTV, with maybe one 15-minute scene in the middle where Ritsuko tells Misato, “Yup! *slaps the side of Unit 01* Shinji’s stuck in there!”

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:46 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:The staff originally has plans for a Third movie without Shinji, where we see the events after the N3I. However, it's pretty possible the 14 year timeskip would still be a surprise for the audience in the last movie.

I suspect they never planned to show the events during the 14 years, but only until the Third Impact (which happened some months after N3I). That's why so many events seem to happen between the N3I and the Third Impact.

Agree, Anno never talked about making a movie about the 14 years war, the farthest he indicated having wanted to go with his initial idea of Q was the true Third Impact, IIRC with the implication that there would be the timeskip between this movie and the final one and that it still would had been a surprise.


View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I’m gonna come out and say it…

I respect Anno for not making a movie about the 14-year gap. It’s more fun that way. Especially for a movie series that focuses solely more on Shinji than NGE ever did, having a movie where we never see him would be weird. Unless, of course, it’s a movie that focuses on mainly Shinji’s mind trip throughout those 14 years. I would really respect Anno if he made a feature length film told in the style of EoTV, with maybe one 15-minute scene in the middle where Ritsuko tells Misato, “Yup! *slaps the side of Unit 01* Shinji’s stuck in there!”

Frankly, I don't think that there's even much to say about the 14 years war, since it's one side made of a few thousands survivors barely scrapping out what they can to survive the red Earth vs the bad guys who benefits from such a hilarious advantage in firepower that they never were in anything close to danger, so not much must had happened.
The problem is the events between N3I and 3I, because those are the key to understand nearly everything that happens in the last two movies, instead of that we have thing that happens because they have to happen and there might be a good reason, but we don't know. Which okay, is the point of 3.0 to have Shinji (and the audience by proxy) be completely overwhelmed by this new world where all his bearings are gone, but Thrice never tries to correct this, quite the contrary, by dumping even more events and lore that can't be fully understood because we're missing a vital chunk of information.

Beside, thematically, having the movies' message being about Shinji having to learn that the world doesn't revolve around him and then not bother to show anything that doesn't directly concern him even if it does greatly concerns and affect those around him kinda muddle said message.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby dzzthink » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:45 pm

I agree that currently there may not be any development on the 14-year gap plot and even if there would be, it isn't something that would be of any substance. After thinking about it for a while, the 14-year gap is simply a symbol for Anno to label a 'significant' change over time. He needed to choose a number that would be appropriate to not only express the change in the world that Evangelion encompasses but the character's dynamics with each and their subsequent growth over the years. Anno has chosen 14 years as that time, which doubles the age of Shinji and his schoolmates to 28, effectively transforming them from teenagers to grown adults. I believe that this is a symbolic age for Anno, as he was 28 when he made his directorial debut for the anime series Gunbusters. Arguably, the entirety of Rebuild or Eva 4 is a roman a clef for Anno's personal life akin to little women, the bell jar or fear and loathing in las vegas. The whole point of the movie was to tell Anno's life, especially towards the end with Gendo's monologue, Shinji's eventual growth into an adult, and Shinji running out of the train station with Mari into Anno's hometown (I would even go as far as to say Mari represents his wife, even if they deny it). The series was a meta expose for Anno about his life and his work on the Evangelion series, which is why some people don't like it since it is too honest and symbolic. They would rather relate to the character's journey than form a loose connection with Anno's journey.
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Postby Axx°N N. » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:52 pm

It also (unintentionally?) served the pragmatic purpose of keeping the futuristic setting intact, as with delays it ended up being that the original setting, 2015, passed during the interim between Q and Shin.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:36 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:It also (unintentionally?) served the pragmatic purpose of keeping the futuristic setting intact, as with delays it ended up being that the original setting, 2015, passed during the interim between Q and Shin.

I doubt that the timeskip's goal was to keep the futuristic setting, firstly because unlike NGE, the Rebuild doesn't have a set date (there's a calendar in the classroom in 1.0 and in Misato's apartment in 2.0 that could hint that the setting is in 2017, but it's not confirmed), and secondly because overall the technology level of the setting decreased after the timeskip: the futuristic setting of Tokyo-3 has been replaced by the post-apocalyptic shanty-town of Village-3, and most of WILLE's gear are legacy US and Soviet-era material (for example, see how they don't use VTOL, but real life military helicopter), and their "hi-tech" gear are salvaged and from before Third Impact (Wunder, the Evas and their weapons), the only real technological advance is that the Eva cockpits now have a full 360° view with holographic interface.
Then there's neo-NERV/SEELE, whose technology is so weird that it's almost alien at this point.
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Postby Axx°N N. » Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:28 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I doubt that the timeskip's goal was to keep the futuristic setting, firstly because unlike NGE, the Rebuild doesn't have a set date (there's a calendar in the classroom in 1.0 and in Misato's apartment in 2.0 that could hint that the setting is in 2017, but it's not confirmed)...

Huh, I genuinely wasn't aware the date was more hush-hush, I suppose that's another error on my part of assuming too much from NGE.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:and secondly because overall the technology level of the setting decreased after the timeskip: the futuristic setting of Tokyo-3 has been replaced by the post-apocalyptic shanty-town of Village-3, and most of WILLE's gear are legacy US and Soviet-era material (for example, see how they don't use VTOL, but real life military helicopter), and their "hi-tech" gear are salvaged and from before Third Impact (Wunder, the Evas and their weapons), the only real technological advance is that the Eva cockpits now have a full 360° view with holographic interface.

I disagree here though, NTE post-timeskip strikes me as more technologically advanced, it's just that it's a backdrop of more heightened apocalypse. Some of it may be down to the updated character and clothing designs being sleeker, but the cockpits aren't the only update--there's new battery packs that greatly reduce what was once the crux of tension for battles, umbilical cables, which as far as I can tell disappear from the narrative during the timeskip, giving near-maximum liberty to go hog wild. As for Wille scrounging around, in many future settings power and tech isn't distributed in an egalitarian way--just as there's still developing nations in our modern society--so just because Gendo & Fuyutsuki horde it all doesn't mean that their near-unlimited means to spit out millions of Eva tech isn't far more futuristic than anything prior.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:39 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:I disagree here though, NTE post-timeskip strikes me as more technologically advanced, it's just that it's a backdrop of more heightened apocalypse. Some of it may be down to the updated character and clothing designs being sleeker, but the cockpits aren't the only update--there's new battery packs that greatly reduce what was once the crux of tension for battles, umbilical cables, which as far as I can tell disappear from the narrative during the timeskip, giving near-maximum liberty to go hog wild. As for Wille scrounging around, in many future settings power and tech isn't distributed in an egalitarian way--just as there's still developing nations in our modern society--so just because Gendo & Fuyutsuki horde it all doesn't mean that their near-unlimited means to spit out millions of Eva tech isn't far more futuristic than anything prior.

The thing is that with the exception of their Evangelion technology, everything else WILLE (and KREDIT) owns and operates has made a jump backward in technological advance compared to NERV before the timeskip: the use of old military choppers instead of VTOLs, most of their fleet made of old US (including two Iowa battleships in their 1940 configuration!) and legacy Soviet ships (hell, even the rockets they use to propel their ships are old Soviet N1 rockets from the late 60's) instead of the more modern gear used by NERV, and the main settlement of the setting got from Tokyo-3 - which was a technological wonder out of a science-fiction novel - to Village 3, made of old buildings repaired with scavenged materials and repurposed containers and wagons.

As for neo-NERV and SEELE, since most of their tech is clearly based on alien technology from the precursors, it's less highly advanced than bordering on space magic.
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Postby Axx°N N. » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:40 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:The thing is that with the exception of their Evangelion technology, everything else WILLE (and KREDIT) owns and operates has made a jump backward in technological advance compared to NERV before the timeskip: the use of old military choppers instead of VTOLs, most of their fleet made of old US (including two Iowa battleships in their 1940 configuration!) and legacy Soviet ships (hell, even the rockets they use to propel their ships are old Soviet N1 rockets from the late 60's) instead of the more modern gear used by NERV, and the main settlement of the setting got from Tokyo-3 - which was a technological wonder out of a science-fiction novel - to Village 3, made of old buildings repaired with scavenged materials and repurposed containers and wagons.

As for neo-NERV and SEELE, since most of their tech is clearly based on alien technology from the precursors, it's less highly advanced than bordering on space magic.

You seem to be drawing a dichotomy between Evangelion-esque tech and tech more analogous to real-world industry, but I find it sort of arbitrary in that, the setting being what it is, can't you make a case that all tech was derived from alien/space-magic origin? N1 rockets in our world where we weren't the result of birth-mother aliens was derived strictly from man's ingenuity in a vacuum--but in Eva's setting, isn't it the case that everything comes from esoteric knowledge, or is at least adjacent to it? The UN is a shadow cabal, and they're who funds any country's advancements, so who knows how far it traces back to or relies on their endeavors.

Even putting that aside, what part of man-derived science is encouraging leaps in Gendo and Fuyutsuki's industrialization? What amount of research into the Evas and Angels (thus, space magic) is inspiring Wille and Kredit? There's no hard dichotomy there. Even though third village is a shanty town, the technology (though crafted from old hardware and magic pillars) is still relying on innovative (ie, new, futuristic) usage and software. Despite civilization being near-reset, there's still progression in the application and aims of technology.

Maybe this comes down to how vague "futuristic" is as a word. To me it encapsulates a collapsed society that coexists with a monstrous automated manufacturing of a ridiculous amount of fighting machines. Say our own world collapsed due to climate change but we still see advances in scientific endeavors aimed to preserve our species and restore our civilization: would that not be futuristic just because New York is gone?
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Postby Blockio » Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:07 pm

The root of the disagreement here seems to be the old split between theoretically existing tech and available tech. The same way that every time some arms manufacturer announces their brand new next-generation piece of equipment, everyone in the respective circles immediately declares everything else obsolete, ignoring the fact that there are often only double digits of whatever the new tech is produced and most of the world will never see their presence, making their impact on the battlefield nonexistent.

The same applies here: Yes, sure, Nerv and Wille have a lot of far-out tech, but not a lot of that is present anywhere outside of the organizations. This split of low-tech world with high-tech elements is all over man-made postapocalypses (see for example Castle in the Sky for a textbook example thereof), and so deeply ingrained into the genre that I don't think there is much point in arguing about the intricacies of why Q and Shin do it and if it is justified in using that trope; it is simply part of the genre that NTE set itself in
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby BernardoCairo » Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:44 pm

Blockio wrote:The same way that every time some arms manufacturer announces their brand new next-generation piece of equipment, everyone in the respective circles immediately declares everything else obsolete, ignoring the fact that there are often only double digits of whatever the new tech is produced and most of the world will never see their presence, making their impact on the battlefield nonexistent.

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Postby DantesInferno » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:31 pm

I definitely agree that out of the "missing" 14 years between 2.0 and 3.0, only the period between N3I and A3I (+ immediate aftermath) is what is worth watching (and would answer most of the questions); anything after that is probably just very sporadic encounters between the slowly regrouping Wille and Neo NERV's mass-produced Evas, until one day Wille finally has the resources to execute operation US. I don't think there is a way to depict this period that would make sense.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:16 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:The root of the disagreement here seems to be the old split between theoretically existing tech and available tech. The same way that every time some arms manufacturer announces their brand new next-generation piece of equipment, everyone in the respective circles immediately declares everything else obsolete, ignoring the fact that there are often only double digits of whatever the new tech is produced and most of the world will never see their presence, making their impact on the battlefield nonexistent.

The same applies here: Yes, sure, Nerv and Wille have a lot of far-out tech, but not a lot of that is present anywhere outside of the organizations. This split of low-tech world with high-tech elements is all over man-made postapocalypses (see for example Castle in the Sky for a textbook example thereof), and so deeply ingrained into the genre that I don't think there is much point in arguing about the intricacies of why Q and Shin do it and if it is justified in using that trope; it is simply part of the genre that NTE set itself in

This is what I meant yes.
After thinking about it, here's a comparison: in the world of Fallout, would you say that the overall technological level after the nuclear war is higher than before it, just because one group (the Enclave) designed a new model of power armor and another (the Institute) created the Synths, despite both new tech being strictly confined to their respective group?
On top of that, both groups only could create those new advances because they managed to hold onto pre-war resources namely knowledge and machinery, all in a secured place safe from bandits, mutants and radiation, which they would be incapable to duplicate or recreate if the need arise. (the Enclave never recovered from the loss of the Poseidon Oil Rig in Fallout 2, and it's obvious that the Institute would be completely unable to rebuild their facility if it get destroyed)

I don't think you would, because those would be outlier cases piggybacking on irreplaceable remnants of the "old world", meanwhile the rest of the world regressed to a state going from pre-industrial at best to literally pre-Bronze Age tribalism at worse. The closest to a modern civilization we see is the New California Republic, which I would put to pre-WWI level of technological advancement, and I'm generous.

And it's the same thing in the post-timeskip Rebuild: sure, WILLE has upgraded some of their tech, but it's confined to the Eva tech (new plugsuits, 3D cockpits, better batteries and portable power supply), and looking at everything else they own, it's clear that they managed that by dumping all of their limited (if not non-existent) industrial resources outside of the strictly necessary to survive into it, and we don't even know how much is actual new designed and produced tech instead of scavenged in a NERV base. Everything else WILLE operates is scavenged equipment. (including the Wunder)

Same thing for the Village: even the only "new" tech we see, the pillars, already existed before the timeskip (I won't speculate on if KREDIT/WILLE could build new ones, since we don't even know where they come from), and the rest is a clear leap backward in technology, occasionally helped by scavenged tech: there's no running electricity (all coming from solar panels that were either scavenged or built by KREDIT) and water probably comes from digged wells, no long range communication outside of one radio in Kensuke's house strictly for military operations (the Wunder crew gets their correspondence with their families through letters, like in WWII), no capacity to build structures (all their housing are either occupied old buildings repaired with what they could scavenge, or repurposed wagons and containers), agriculture is completely non-mechanized...

Then there's neo-NERV, whose base is the closest to the pre-3I technological level, and have even more far out tech (the most obvious being their Evas being mass-produced virtually infinitely, if we can even call them Evas, as it seems that they are more animated constructs made of core material) but all of it seems to come from SEELE, who are immortal beings who probably got their knowledge from Lilith who's the closest to the godly progenitor race. But I don't think that Gendo and Fuyu could reconstruct their base and all its Eva building factories if it get destroyed, even if it happened before SEELE's death. (I think, since I can't even imagine how the base came to be in the first place. No seriously, how the fuck did they build that shit?! :bigeyes: )


View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:I definitely agree that out of the "missing" 14 years between 2.0 and 3.0, only the period between N3I and A3I (+ immediate aftermath) is what is worth watching (and would answer most of the questions); anything after that is probably just very sporadic encounters between the slowly regrouping Wille and Neo NERV's mass-produced Evas, until one day Wille finally has the resources to execute operation US. I don't think there is a way to depict this period that would make sense.

Clearly, the most interesting period is the missing piece between N3I and 3I, which also has the advantage to happen in a small enough timeframe that you can put explore it in a single movie. Besides when he talked about his initial plans for 3.0 in interviews, Anno only mentioned that period, he never said that it would had covered the timeskip (which IIRC was also supposed to come as a surprise in that initial plan).

As you said, the rest of the timeskip doesn't seem to have much to offer as a whole (to little events spread through a too long timeframe), thinking about it, one way I could see it explored would be through little snippets set at different moments of those 14 years exploring a moment between character, like the mini-manga set just before 3.0 did for Asuka and Mari, either in manga form, or in mini-clips if Khara feels motivated, that way they could explore different moments and characters without having to follow a storyline, and with such a format there would be a lot to explore: Kaji Jr's life in the village, one of Asuka's trips to the Village living with Kensuke, the newbies of the Wunder crew arriving and learning to know each other, the implied time Kensuke was in Misato's inner circle and could hear her thoughts about Shinji, the story behind Asuka's famous cat-eared cap (since it's the only piece of clothing she owns, there must be story behind it!), Kaworu interacting with Gendo, Fuyu or SEELE... there are many possibilities.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Konja7 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:18 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Clearly, the most interesting period is the missing piece between N3I and 3I, which also has the advantage to happen in a small enough timeframe that you can put explore it in a single movie. Besides when he talked about his initial plans for 3.0 in interviews, Anno only mentioned that period, he never said that it would had covered the timeskip (which IIRC was also supposed to come as a surprise in that initial plan).


Yeah. Anno focus on the events after the N3I. He especifically mentioned Kaworu and Kaji taking the positions as Commander and Vicecommander of NERV respectively.


Regarding the timeskip being part of original plan, I think Anno had said the timeskip was always planned in an interview. This always seemed to be contradictory with the preview at the end of 2.0.

However, if we consider the original plan was a movie without Shinji, we could assume the timeskip was planned to happen in the last movie.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:44 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Regarding the timeskip being part of original plan, I think Anno had said the timeskip was always planned in an interview. This always seemed to be contradictory with the preview at the end of 2.0.

However, if we consider the original plan was a movie without Shinji, we could assume the timeskip was planned to happen in the last movie.

Agreed, from interviews and supplemental materials, here's what I think had been the different "versions" of the story envisioned by Anno:
  • the very initial plan (according to Tsurumaki's interview) of having most of the story be the same as NGE with updated graphics, but with a different ending. Apparently very quickly ditched (I would say even before 1.0 was finalized, because of the scene of Kaworu on the Moon) because that would mean making a story that's 80% like old NGE
  • the plan to have 3.0 being the movie teased in the 2.0 NTP, without Shinji on it, and with the timeskip for the last movie. The story would had surely been very different from the final products, because there's no way in hell that one movie could had fit Shinji's time at neo-NERV, Village-3 and the final, unless it's like five hours long
  • the early version of 3.0 (that has gone as far as the storyboard phase) shown in the 3.333 Blu-Ray bonus, with 3.0 already begining after the timseskip and being divided in two parts: the first one with Shinji in neo-NERV and the second in Village-3, with the last movie presumably being about his time in the Wunder and the final battle
  • the final version, still with the surprise timeskip, but with 3.0 making the first half of the early version of 3.0, and the last movie combining the second half plus the end of the story
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