Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby Archer » Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:38 pm

Episode 24’s confusing plot has been discussed many times, but I haven’t found any recent (read: <10 years old) thread on this, and reading different opinions online I haven’t really found a consensus, so I thought I’d just make a new thread to share my theory as to what’s going on.

Kaworu: based on how he acts, we have to assume that unlike the other Angels, he is unable to detect the presence of Adam or Lilith. Otherwise, he would’ve known that Adam was actually with Gendo the moment he arrived at NERV HQ. Unlike the other angels’ animalistic instinct to reach Lilith and enact their version of Instrumentality, Kaworu seems to show no particular interest in that, and wants to merge with Adam instead. So once he realizes that SEELE tricked him and that he was stuck in Terminal Dogma with no way of uniting with Adam, he just let Shinji kill him instead of uniting with Lilith, because triggering Instrumentality wasn’t really his goal in the first place.

SEELE: so obviously they KNOW that the giant in Terminal Dogma isn’t Adam. They know that Adam is the embryo, because Gendo literally had Kaji steal it FROM them. In order for their plan to succeed, all of the angels must die. Yet, they have no easy way of killing Kaworu once he’s outlived his usefulness (presumably for the process of making the MPE dummy plugs) because he’s an Angel that can be only damaged by an AT field. They decide that the easiest way to kill him is to force a confrontation with the only functioning Eva unit at the moment (Unit 1), and decide that the best way to do this is to deceive Kaworu into capturing Unit 2 and invading NERV’s most secret area, which would undoubtedly force Gendo to send Shinji down in Unit 1 to stop him.

Tl;dr, SEELE sent Kaworu to NERV to die, deceiving him into a near-guaranteed face-off with the only thing in the world that could easily kill him.

Is there anything in the episode that directly contradicts this idea?

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby gelflinghand » Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:41 pm

My guess is that Adam can't be detected by any Angel in embryonic state, and the sense that lets them detect Lilith from a distance doesn't distinguish between Lilith, Adam, and possibly the Evas (though they can tell Evas aren't the real thing up close).

Kaworu isn't enthusiastic about merging with Adam either. If he hadn't stopped to think about it, it's possible he could have initiated the merger before realising it was actually Lilith on the cross. It seems an incredible risk for SEELE to take if a merger isn't what they want; more likely, Kaworu was their first choice for starting Instrumentality. He's not a regular Angel, but something SEELE created in the first place. If they just wanted to destroy him, why not send him somewhere safely isolated, tell NERV the angel's location, and send Shinji to destroy it without becoming friends first?
Last edited by gelflinghand on Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:35 pm

Seele wanted Kaworu to fail. They only sent Kaworu so that he could die faster. With the last angel dead, their version of Instrumentality would be next
Everyone was cheering for Shinji, but himself. Even Kaworu. How tragic! XD
At that point, Gendo just wasn't worth trusting. However, Seele needed Nerv in order to kill the angels. Once Kaworu was dead, Gendo and Fuyutsuki were useless. Actually, not only that, they became THE threat.
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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby Archer » Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:20 am

View Original Postgelflinghand wrote:If they just wanted to destroy him, why not send him somewhere safely isolated, tell NERV the angel's location, and send Shinji to destroy it without becoming friends first?

I don’t think they PLANNED on Kaworu befriending Shinji, it’s likely just something he just chose to do on his own. Either they didn’t think about it, or the possibility didn’t concern them much - clearly, it didn’t change the outcome because Shinji DID kill him anyways, but even if he didn’t I still don’t think Kaworu would’ve then gone on to start Instrumentality, simply because it was never what he wanted in the first place, and because doing so would go against his newfound love for humanity. I think it’s not a stretch to assume that SEELE were familiar enough with Kaworu’s psychology to be reasonably sure that he wouldn’t impulsively try and merge with “Adam” without thinking about the situation, accidentally prematurely kicking off Instrumentality outside of SEELE’s plans.

Like, fundamentally, Kaworu isn’t human. He doesn’t think like a human, and he doesn’t have a human’s incredibly strong desire for self-preservation at all costs. If he thought like a human, he would have been incensed at SEELE’s betrayal, and might have chosen to merge with Lilith just to fuck over SEELE’s plans as retaliation. He might have begged Shinji to spare his life, and it probably would’ve worked. But he’s not human, and SEELE knows that, and thus would have weighted their risk calculations accordingly.

Also, like, just imagine how the situation you described would play out. Shinji would get to the bunker, only to realize that he’s basically been ordered to kill a defenseless kid who, as far as he’s concerned, has done nothing wrong, isn’t attacking him, and isn’t in any immediate danger of ending the world (as opposed to what actually happens, where Kaworu betrayed his trust, is actively fighting him with Unit 2, and could kickstart Instrumentality on a whim). Do you REALLY think he’d be down with that when he had just recently seriously crippled his friend in what was basically the same scenario? Compared to the complete wild card that is Shinji, they had a known quantity in Kaworu who they could be reasonably sure wouldn’t fuck up their plans.

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby gelflinghand » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:54 pm

Perhaps, but "reasonably sure" still seems pretty reckless given the stakes involved.

Yes, I see what you mean about sending Shinji out to kill him; Kaworu needs to initiate hostilities. So it would make more sense to send him to attack openly, and warn NERV he's coming. Shinji should have less trouble killing a flying kid tearing apart NERV defences with an AT field - he wouldn't be happy about it, but I don't see him outright refusing. Unless Kaworu is simply too strong for Unit 01 to have any hope of defeating him in combat, so they manipulated him into wanting to let Shinji win. In which case Kaworu befriending Shinji was fundamental to SEELE's plan.

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:38 pm

Lowering Kaworu's A.T. Field by getting him to trust Shinji and then having the rug pulled out from under his feet by revealing that it's Lilith, not Adam, on that cross, does seem like something the manipulative old men would do.

The idea that Kaworu lacks human self-preservation is dubious, since he does protect himself with both Eva-02 and his A.T. Field throughout the fight. Kaworu may not have been happy with his existence in a Lilin body, and one early draft of Episode 24 actually suggested that he was actively suicidal. Now, how much of that background information remains relevant to the finished version is an open question, but it does shed some light on what they were planning to do with this character.
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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby Archer » Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:46 pm

Maybe “lack of self preservation instinct” isn’t quite the right way of putting it. But I mean sort of like how Rei behaves throughout most of the show - she’s not a borderline suicidal death seeker or anything, but if asked to do something that puts herself in mortal danger she won’t put the value of her own life above the importance of the task at hand. Like, I’m sure Kaworu would rather be alive, but the prospect of death doesn’t seem to faze him much.

There’s also the additional thing to note that sending Kaworu isn’t just for the sake of completing their plan, it’s also a passive-aggressive fuck-you to Gendo, because he KNOWS that SEELE is fucking with him, and they know that he knows. It’s retaliation for Gendo “accidentally losing” the Lance of Longinus on the moon. SEELE in NGE isn’t some omnipotent entity, they’re a group of petty old men playing God, and I think it’s kind of funny to imagine them going for a slightly riskier plan for no reason other than to spite Gendo.
Last edited by Archer on Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby EvaChero » Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:57 am

Never ever underestimate the human capacity for spite, even in the face of utter annihilation. Totally agree with that.
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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:19 pm

Between Gendo's atrocious "parenting" and having her soul split, Rei is pretty badly messed up. And there really are moments like Rei's kamikaze charge at Zeruel and her "If I die, I can be replaced" line where she seems to be genuinely suicidal. Take a look at her lines in Episode 25, for instance -
https://wiki.evageeks.org/FGC:Episode_25_Scene_05

Rei 3 (about ceasing to exist): “No, it makes me happy. Because I want to die. What I desire is despair. I want to return to nothingness.”

Rei 2: “But I can't. I cannot return to nothingness. He (Gendo) won't let me return.”

We already know that Rei's first incarnation was murdered, that her soul was split and then recombined, and that she was brought up by Gendo in abysmal conditions.

So how was Kaworu raised and did he feel the same way as Rei did as a result of his upbringing? That's an open question. I do think he had self-preservation in some form in the final product, as I mentioned, he protected himself from Eva-01's attacks. It's possible that he was pushed over the edge at some point over the course of Episode 24 and so chose to let Shinji exist.
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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby Archer » Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:52 pm

I think it’s at least somewhat debatable how much of that is a result of her upbringing, and how much of it is the inherent effect of an incredibly alien soul residing in a human(ish) body. Kaworu definitely seems to be better-adjusted than Rei, but he definitely doesn’t act like a normal human boy.

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby OutlawThirds » Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:02 am

Tl;dr, SEELE sent Kaworu to NERV to die, deceiving him into a near-guaranteed face-off with the only thing in the world that could easily kill him.


This makes sense and is one of two possibilities I see. I generally favor this one because it casts Seele as jerks. However, if Seele sent Kaworu there to die, they could have done so in a much less risk intensive way: they could have tipped off Misato that Kaworu was an angel and that he should be squashed upon arrival.

An alternate interpretation would be that Seele had a heads-you-win, tails-you-lose scenario in mind: if Kaworu had successfully merged with Lillith, maybe they were planning to kick off instrumentality immediately. If Kaworu fails, no great loss; now the angel threat is gone and they can proceed with an MP Eva + Unit 01 fueled Instrumentality play.

View Original PostArcher wrote:I think it’s at least somewhat debatable how much of that is a result of her upbringing, and how much of it is the inherent effect of an incredibly alien soul residing in a human(ish) body. Kaworu definitely seems to be better-adjusted than Rei, but he definitely doesn’t act like a normal human boy.


You do have to wonder if Adamite life just has a better attitude than Lillin life, but a few of the angels seem pretty lonely. I tend to favor the idea that the differences between Kaworu and Lillith are mostly down to their donors and their lives. We don't know anything about Kaworu's donor but we do know that Rei's donor is Yui 'robot cannibal, fly into space and refuse to elaborate' Ikari. Likewise we don't know about Kaworu's childhood but it probably wasn't as brutal as 'Murdered, reincarnated, raised by Gendo Ikari with nonstop gaslighting/emotional abuse.' Maybe they both have some difficulties with being in tiny human bodies instead of their giant demiurge forms, but if Kaworu can have a good attitude about it, I don't see why Rei can't.

Like, fundamentally, Kaworu isn’t human. He doesn’t think like a human, and he doesn’t have a human’s incredibly strong desire for self-preservation at all costs.


Not sure I buy this. Humans have a notable tendency to abandon self preservation in favor of protecting the people or causes they care about. You could see Kaworu's acceptance of being squashed as a heroic sacrifice. He spells out his thinking: it's humans or me. Maybe he thought that if he got a hold of Adam he would have been able to control the impact and avoid badness somehow; maybe being double crossed by the people he trusted (Seele) vs his relationship with Shinji made him rethink what Lillin were all about. If his main exposure to people was through Seele minders, maybe he was totally ok with the idea of omnicide up to that point because he had concluded that Lillin were dicks?

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby Archer » Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:53 pm

I’m not too sure where the “it’s either my life or the humans” idea really comes from, in-universe.

Kaworu doesn’t really seem to be under any sort of compulsion to trigger Instrumentality. Like sure in a grander cosmic sense, it’s either his life or the life of humans; and yes, his life is effectively over if he makes it out of Terminal Dogma - he’ll probably be left to rot away in a NERV cell until they can figure out what to do with him. But in that very moment, there isn’t actually any reason for him to NEED Shinji to kill him, since he doesn’t seem interested in Instrumentality.

I think that in his mind that seemed like the best solution, and that maybe, for some insane reason, he thought it would be best for Shinji if he personally killed Kaworu, but really, he could’ve begged for his life, told Shinji he wouldn’t start Instrumentality, and bought himself a little more time. At the very least he could’ve saved Shinji the trauma of personally popping his head off. I just don’t think his chosen course of action is something that can be explained by normal human reasoning.

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby SEELE-01 » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:59 pm

I had always considered other scenarios, but I really like how this one plays out, specially the idea of SEELE in need to destroy Kaworu to release Adam's soul for 3I...
One thing I've always assumed was that Kaworu intentionally befriended Shinji in order to trample his weakened psyche when it were revealed that he was an angel.
My headcanon involves Ritsuko semi-colluding with SEELE in ep. 23, and told Shinji the truth about Rei and the Evas to "weaken" him, allowing Kaworu to deal the final blow. Thus, removing the Eva 01 pilot from the equation and allowing an Eva-fueled impact unobstructed, as was more-or-less happening in EoE.

Whether Kaworu knew or not he was going to die at the hands of Shinji is irrelevant, 'cuz the damage would've been done. Kaworu overall, given his short appearance and involvement in plot lines that have been solving for several chapters now is a tricky character to analyze, but one thing that I always keep in mind is that its too much of a coincidence that he appears to Shinji exactly when at his most vulnerable and to freely give him what he needed... Maybe not an outright malicious Kaworu, but one that was played into neatly into that role, which fits nicely with Archer's proposed interpretation.
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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby Gendo's Glasses » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:28 am

SEELE sent Kaworu to kill Gendo in a 'two birds, one stone' play. Unfortunately, they didn't count on Kaworu going rogue. The messy nature of Evangelion's production, and the inclusion of additional scenes, make certain parts of this rather obtuse. To drag some posts on a similar topic from a few months ago:

View Original PostGendo's Glasses wrote:It's actually really obvious. SEELE tells Kaworu that Adam's body lies within Gendo. At this point, SEELE and Gendo are butting heads (Gendo has thrown the Lance into space, something which Fuyutsuki said would displease SEELE.) SEELE thinks Angels want to make contact with Adam and have told Kaworu that Adam's body is located in Gendo. Whether SEELE knows this is true is irrelevant, the point is that they're trying to point a human Angel who they control at Gendo.

So, SEELE sent Kaworu to NERV in the hopes that he would assassinate Gendo and then, presumably, be killed. This would rid SEELE of the last Angel and of their treacherous subordinate. Kaworu, however, goes rogue and decides to go after Lillith for some odd reason, ignoring or disregarding what SEELE told him of Adam.


View Original PostGendo's Glasses wrote:
View Original PostDantesInferno#933809 wrote:
The scene where Kaworu is told this was added for the DVD release I think? (not included in the original airing), and I've seen it mentioned before how Seele telling Kaworu that Adam's body is already inside Gendo is at odds with Kaworu later mistaking the white giant at dogma with Adam... To the point of even being labelled a "continuity error"/"plot hole". What do you make of that?


Yeah, the nature of the production of the original series has led to a fair few rough patches when it comes to understanding just what the heck is going on. Especially in the later episodes, which is why so many of them are filled with dense exposition (and why so many people finish the series and ask questions like what were the Angels' goals?) The Director's Cut introduces a lot of new material that complicates an already dense thicket of a narrative that was being drafted on an episode-by-episode basis.

While Angels are seemingly almost instinctually drawn to reunite with Adam, Kaworu isn't an Angel precisely. He's something similar to Rei, as seen in the scene where he meets her, and I believe apocryphal material confirms that he was a product of the Antarctica Contact Experiment where human DNA fused with Adam. SEELE seem to think that can point Kaworu at Gendo and, either way that goes, they rid themselves of one or two threats to their plans.

But, like Rei, Kaworu has a certain degree of free will (and is, indeed, named for the Angel of Free Will.) So, Kaworu decides to not go after Gendo and instead descends to Terminal Dogma for a reason that isn't clear at all (and all of this confusion stems from the fact that Lilith did not exist prior to this episode -- previously, the white giant was Adam.) However, there's some rich thematic stuff there with Kaworu almost reuniting with a primordial mother figure, similar to the womb imagery and so on with Shinji and Unit 01.

I try not to think of things in terms of plot holes, but the writing is certainly messy and imprecise. But I think the question is imprecise, too. SEELE did not send Kaworu to Terminal Dogma, they sent him to NERV. Kaworu went down to Terminal Dogma seemingly of his own volition. The problem is Kaworu's motivation is almost impossible to determine, especially with the DC scenes taken into account. Angels seek out Adam. Kaworu is told where Adam is ("within Ikari.") But then Kaworu does practically everything but following the lead SEELE provided him, possibly because he identifies Gendo as Shinji's father. After befriending Shinji, he abruptly descends to Terminal Dogma and is surprised that he finds Lilith instead of Adam. We're missing Kaworu's internal world -- does he like or believe SEELE?

But here's another thing: Kaworu knows Lilith exists, too, because in the conversation at the lake both Lilith and Lilin are mentioned with the former named as the progenitor of the latter. So, whatever revelation Kaworu comes to in Terminal Dogma ("I see now, the Lilin, Lilith!") is difficult to reconcile, too. I wouldn't call it a plot hole or continuity error but more an issue resulting from inserting a dense, lore-rich scene in an episode that had already been planned and executed. It's still not impossible to reconcile but I think the nature of Evangelion's development means there's always rough edges to making it all fit together neatly.

So, the question is really "Why did Kaworu decide to go down to Terminal Dogma?" and I'm not sure there's an answer one can determine on that count without some form of headcanon -- Kaworu could sense Lilith, Kaworu was putting on a show for Shinji and/or Rei, Kaworu thought SEELE was lying about where Adam was, etc. I assume in the original broadcast, Kaworu was genuinely confused based on whatever 'sixth sense' Angels appear to possess.

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby gelflinghand » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:43 pm

In End of Evangelion, SEELE complain about an Eva once again interfering with their plans. To me, that sounds like something that's happened more than once before. Unit 00 disposing of the Lance would probably count as one instance; could Unit 01 killing Kaworu be another? Are there any other instances where the Evas act against SEELE's interests?

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Re: Seele’s motivation in Ep 24

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Postby Gendo's Glasses » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:35 pm

View Original Postgelflinghand wrote:In End of Evangelion, SEELE complain about an Eva once again interfering with their plans. To me, that sounds like something that's happened more than once before. Unit 00 disposing of the Lance would probably count as one instance; could Unit 01 killing Kaworu be another? Are there any other instances where the Evas act against SEELE's interests?


Unit 01 devouring Zeruel's S2 engine, I think. SEELE needs Kaworu to die and they say as much during Episode 24, that Gendo will be forced to utilize Unit 01 to get rid of him.


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