Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Archer » Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:09 am

In NGE it’s left kind of ambiguous the degree of memory retained between Rei II and Rei III, and it’s left up to interpretation whether Rei III is a “different person” or just “Rei with some degree of amnesia” (though I would argue that narratively she functions more as “Rei with amnesia” than as her own individual… but again, up to debate/interpretation).

In 3.0+1.0, the fact that “Ayanami” is explicitly treated as a separate individual from Rei II is kind of a major plot point, which I think kinda gets ruined by the implication that Rei II absorbed some or all of her memories after she died.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Axx°N N. » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:54 pm

"Your Rei is gone forever ... unless?" :rei_poke:

It's confused when compared to NGE, which didn't have a tendency to hammer down all its nails. But NTE's storytelling approach seems to be bait & switch pretty routinely. For example, there are entire factions who function as homogeneous emotional environments for the sake of effect. Wille is extremely hostile and alienating at the time the storytelling needs Shinji to face conflict, Third village is extremely kind, compassionate and welcoming at the time the storytelling needs Shinji be nudged toward self-growth. Both groups are how they are with very little deliberation, even when the decisions should warrant skepticism from group members, until a fork in the road is hit and said skepticism would be dramatically expedient. It wouldn't take much effort for anyone involved to see Wille's approach as shooting oneself in the foot; Shinji is potentially dangerous as an ascended being, so we should do things which .. upset him and provide zero incentive not to vamoose? And with Third village, the world is all but destroyed, there's an active enemy who can roll out thousands of evil tech at a finger snap, and so who is perfectly capable of and has no reason not to be trying subterfuge at any moment with any means possible, so strangers to the village should ... be allowed to commingle after the most milquetoast of hesitation? The world was shrunk to an nth of its population because of the judgment and decisions of people tasked with not letting that happen, but Toji and Kensuke as county doctor and handyman respectively command enough trust to palliate any concerns out of sheer character vetting ... of a clone made by said enemy who could, for all anyone knows, be programmed with a kill code. Sense of characters as humans who can reason doesn't seem to be prioritized over the requirement that the narrative arc assume its shape. Point A must segue to Point B, and unfortunately it often involves a glossing over of how we get there. Rewrites are framed as misguided escapism because it's useful for drama in the moment in 3.0, but without much argument they become good again in Thrice because what matters more than exploring the fundamentals of the decision-making is that the characters get unambiguous happy endings. Ergo, ways in which the central conflicts logically shouldn't be resolved by mere removal of Evangelion units isn't as big of a concern as making something the scapegoat and playing along as if it were a solution that makes sense.
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Archer » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:00 pm

The thing is though it’s not even something that’s that heavily implied or that even contributes to that moment that much - literally just have Rei II NOT be holding the damn baby doll in that last scene. My problem with it is that its inclusion seems so pointless and throwaway - it adds nothing to that interaction (at least I don’t remember it being directly addressed in the dialog) but it undercuts Ayanami’s entire character in 3.0+1.0, which is entirely built around the idea that she is her own person separate from Rei II.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Axx°N N. » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:16 pm

I wonder if the doll weren't there, there would be much debate anyway? Because of the context the scene occurs in, all these meta throwbacks, there's this sense that things are coming together--Kaworu refers to his loops, he's having this accumulative perspective on it all, along with Shinji, and then Rei is visibly different with the longer hair, and that strikes me as an accumulative visual--this can't just be Rei, so what is it? It'd have to be a recombined or total Rei. It's just that if you dig into the scene beyond this impression, there's the doll and the doll drives a hammer into a nail.
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Archer » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:27 pm

I thought the long-haired Rei was just representing Rei II, who had been inside Unit 1 for 14 years. I haven’t rewatched the movie recently so I could be wrong, but I don’t recall anything other than the doll which would suggest that the Rei at the end is intended to be read as a composite character.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Axx°N N. » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:35 pm

View Original PostArcher wrote:I thought the long-haired Rei was just representing Rei II, who had been inside Unit 1 for 14 years. I haven’t rewatched the movie recently so I could be wrong, but I don’t recall anything other than the doll which would suggest that the Rei at the end is intended to be read as a composite character.

I guess I'm being pedantic, but in that case shouldn't it be all scraggly and matted and not Newtype frontcover ready? :emogendo: The supposition is a good one though, and I think it also works as a potential callback to Unit 01 letting its hair unfurl to Yui's monologue in EoE, another lady who went long dormant in an Eva. If we relate it back in-movie to the haircut chat between Asuka and Mari, you could interpret it as a simple indication of life; which to me suggests composite, because that's only significant when applied to the previously dead, which arguably applies to Rei II but for sure applies to Rei Q.

I think the only other suggestion of a composite is that they chat over an overlay of NGE titlecards. That would be suggesting some level of composite for either or both of them, and one not just involving previous incarnations of Rei within NTE, but the franchise at large.
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Konja7 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:38 am

I don't think the Rei we see at the end is a composite character between Rei II and Rei Q. I think she is Rei II, but she has Rei Q's memories.

It's also important to mention that the Rei II we see at the end could have a Tsubame doll, but she doesn't have Rei Q development. She still couldn't imagine a live without the Eva for herself.

In 3.0, it was implied Rei Q doesn't have a soul in her body, then I always assumed her soul was Rei II. That could explain why Rei II have Rei Q memories.



View Original PostArcher wrote:I thought the long-haired Rei was just representing Rei II, who had been inside Unit 1 for 14 years. I haven’t rewatched the movie recently so I could be wrong, but I don’t recall anything other than the doll which would suggest that the Rei at the end is intended to be read as a composite character.

The long hair is a little weird, because Rei II lost her body at the end of 2.0 (when she was eaten by the 10th Angel). I guess the long hair is symbolic.

It's true that the doll is the only hint that Rei II has Rei Q memories. Even so, Shinji still treat her as a different being from Rei Q:

Shinji: You're the only one left, Ayanami.
Rei: I'm fine here.
Shinji: The other you found a place to belong, somewhere else. I think even Asuka will see there's a new place for her when she returns.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Archer » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:35 am

Okay, that dialog only raises the question even harder: why that damn doll? What does it add to the story, or to Rei II’s character, to imply that she has (some of?) Rei Q’s memories?

I’m almost wondering if it’s an artifact from an older script/idea that they just didn’t think to remove, because its inclusion straight up makes no sense to me.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby BernardoCairo » Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:41 pm

She's actually Rei VI.
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:41 pm

Rei Q's story arc is a mess.
As you said, in NGE it was ambiguous if Rei III was a different person or just Rei II with scrambled memories, but leaned toward the second, especially with supplemental material about her carrying Lilith's soul, which means that either said soul was transferred from one body to the other, or NERV took away chunks of Lilith's soul to install inside each Rei to serve as a "bridge", and anyway all three Reis appearing in EoE when Gendo dies symbolize that she's whole again and make that distinction null and void.

But OTOH, Q goes all-in in setting Rei Q as her own individual completely separate from Rei II who only shares the same face: she doesn't have any of her memories or her experiences, and Kaworu's comment about how her soul "is in the wrong place/missing" could even be taken as another way to separate her from NGE's Rei II/Rei III identity debate since Rei Q doesn't even share a soul with Rei II.
This is compounded by Shinji flat-out rejecting her as (his) Ayanami starting an existential crisis in her, with the culmination of her arc being Asuka telling her that she shouldn't ponder what would Rei Ayanami do, but instead do what she wants, a moment retroactively made even more powerful by Thrice's revelation that Asuka herself is a clone and thus understands exactly what Rei Q is going through.

Even Thrice initially uses story beats that leans toward establishing her as a separate individual, with her being adopted in a family and living separately from Shinji, and the recurrent question about what is her name while everyone use a placeholder one (even in a meta-level with her "official" name in supplemental material being "Ayanami Rei (tentative name)"), culminating in Rei Q asking Shinji to chose a name for her? That's identity quest plotline 101!

Then Thrice does a complete 180°drifting at the last second when a clueless Shinji answers that he doesn't have an idea as "Ayanami is Ayanami for him" (which could be interpreted as Shinji simply not wanting to give a name on the fly since this is something important, or that he doesn't think that he should be the one to chose, but Rei Q herself), and somehow that's enough for Rei Q, who can then die with peace in her heart despite being denied an identity beyond "what" she is (Ayanami), then everyone else carry on with the plot without even mentioning her as if she never existed, except briefly by Fuyutsuki just to lambast Gendo about how he let her die on purpose just to be a dick to his son... before popping out four more Ayanamis (just Ayanamis), deemed as perfect by their total lack of emotion or free will.
That's it until the end when Shinji just refers to her as "the other you" to a Rei II who obviously got Rei Q's memories that Shinji will helpfully tell her to use as a template of how she should continue her life from now on.

It's as if Rei Q's character isn't to be considered as her own, but as a "sub-Rei", whose character arc's ultimate aim wasn't a quest of identity and self-realization, but to gain the "right" to be part of the Rei's continuum of character (endorsed by Shinji's "Ayanami is Ayanami") by virtue of being moe enough to melt his (and the audience) heart to be allowed to become part and be used by a "Rei Prime", that in the end, only the "original" actually matters.
Which again, goes against all the themes and story beats used on her in 3.0 and Thrice up until 20 seconds before her death.

That's why I really want to have the 3.0 and Thrice CRC, because I keep thinking that Khara had other plans with her that ultimately had to be axed because they didn't know what to do with her after the Village and in relation to the conclusion of Rei II's own arc, or maybe have a confirmation that the message being that she was just a "sub-Rei" is right.
Which then would raise the question of if Asuka only got a thematic absolution because she luckily got fused with her original, making her "whole", just in time before "dying", because when you think about it, half of her Instrumentality flash-back is about her resentment at being alone when she was a little girl, which logically only the original could had experienced, while the last 14 years of war - which should had affected her a ton and something unique to Asuka the clone - aren't even mentioned.
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Konja7 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:20 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:That's why I really want to have the 3.0 and Thrice CRC, because I keep thinking that Khara had other plans with her that ultimately had to be axed because they didn't know what to do with her after the Village and in relation to the conclusion of Rei II's own arc, or maybe have a confirmation that the message being that she was just a "sub-Rei" is right.


I think they don't have more plans for Rei Q after the Village.

In early drafts for Q (that appeared in Blu-Ray of 3.333), we could see they always planned that Rei Q will find a place in the Village. In fact, the imageboards has some dialogues written in this part:

SPOILER: Show
Toji+Hikari(?):
やっぱみんないっしょが楽しいよナー!
またこいよー!いつでもなー!
It really is much more fun with everyone here!
Come again, whenever you like!

Rei Q:
"たのしい”。。。。
アヤナミレイがもしここにいたら。。。たのしいの?
"Fun"...
Would Ayanami Rei have fun...if she was here?

(アヤナミ、一人だれもいない食事)
(Image insert of Ayanami eating alone)

Shinji:
アヤナミがほんとうにたどりつきたかったのは。。。ここなのかもしれない!?
Was this perhaps the place...Ayanami really wanted to be!?

Rei II:
ワタシがマモルカラ。
"Because I'll protect you."

Shinji:
(ボクは。。結局。。。一度も守れなかった。。。!!!)
(I couldn't protect you...not even a single time...!!!)
お願いがあるんだ。(アヤナミのかわりに。。。ここにいてほしい)
I have a request. I want you to stay here...in Ayanami's stead.
キミはもう。。。戦わなくていい
You don't have to...fight anymore

Rei Q:
イカリシンジはどうなるの?
What will you do, Ikari Shinji?

Shinji:
ボクはもう一度あそこ(ネルフ本部)戻らなくちゃいけない。。。キミは(そしてこの場所は)ボクが守る
I have to go back there once again, to NERV HQ...I'll protect you and this village.

Rei Q:
サヨナラ
Goodbye


Based on this dialogue and the images, it seems that Rei Q's arc was fully completed in the Village even in early versions. She doesn't seem to die, but she will stay in the Village. So, they don't seem to plan to make her relevant for the story after that.

Rei Q's death seems to be a later concept for the story. I suspect they make this to affect Shinji.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:55 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original PostElMariachi#936167 wrote:That's why I really want to have the 3.0 and Thrice CRC, because I keep thinking that Khara had other plans with her that ultimately had to be axed because they didn't know what to do with her after the Village and in relation to the conclusion of Rei II's own arc, or maybe have a confirmation that the message being that she was just a "sub-Rei" is right.


I think they don't have more plans for Rei Q after the Village.

In early drafts for Q (that appeared in Blu-Ray of 3.333), we could see they always planned that Rei Q will find a place in the Village. In fact, the imageboards has some dialogues written in this part:

SPOILER: Show
Toji+Hikari(?):
やっぱみんないっしょが楽しいよナー!
またこいよー!いつでもなー!
It really is much more fun with everyone here!
Come again, whenever you like!

Rei Q:
"たのしい”。。。。
アヤナミレイがもしここにいたら。。。たのしいの?
"Fun"...
Would Ayanami Rei have fun...if she was here?

(アヤナミ、一人だれもいない食事)
(Image insert of Ayanami eating alone)

Shinji:
アヤナミがほんとうにたどりつきたかったのは。。。ここなのかもしれない!?
Was this perhaps the place...Ayanami really wanted to be!?

Rei II:
ワタシがマモルカラ。
"Because I'll protect you."

Shinji:
(ボクは。。結局。。。一度も守れなかった。。。!!!)
(I couldn't protect you...not even a single time...!!!)
お願いがあるんだ。(アヤナミのかわりに。。。ここにいてほしい)
I have a request. I want you to stay here...in Ayanami's stead.
キミはもう。。。戦わなくていい
You don't have to...fight anymore

Rei Q:
イカリシンジはどうなるの?
What will you do, Ikari Shinji?

Shinji:
ボクはもう一度あそこ(ネルフ本部)戻らなくちゃいけない。。。キミは(そしてこの場所は)ボクが守る
I have to go back there once again, to NERV HQ...I'll protect you and this village.

Rei Q:
サヨナラ
Goodbye


Based on this dialogue and the images, it seems that Rei Q's arc was fully completed in the Village even in early versions. She doesn't seem to die, but she will stay in the Village. So, they don't seem to plan to make her relevant for the story after that.

Rei Q's death seems to be a later concept for the story. I suspect they make this to affect Shinji.

I actually hesitated to talk about the early draft of 3.0 where it looks like she survives, because we don't know what Anno and his staff had planned in this post-early draft and they might had planned to kill her like in the final version of Thrice.

But still, that was why I wrote about the end of Rei Q's arc "in relation to the conclusion of Rei II": keeping her alive would mean that she would still be around, either in the Wunder (since logically her only hope of survival is to have Ritsuko jury-rig something to do her regular body recalibration) or in the Village (assuming Ritsuko somehow prepared a portable version of the calibration system that Toji can use), and the former would need the movie to devote some time about what she's doing, while the latter would make people want to see how the concept of having two Rei living in the same place would work, Rei II might think that she would be too many (if we assume that Rei II is resurrected and ends in the Village like Asuka)

Also without having Rei Q's memories, Rei II would had have only Shinji's words that she can live in a world without Eva and NERV, instead of having a concrete proof in her mind.

Killing Rei Q and having Rei II getting her memories solves these two points while also having a place for her to be in the Village already "prepared".
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby nerv bae » Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:05 am

View Original PostArcher wrote:In 3.0+1.0, the fact that “Ayanami” is explicitly treated as a separate individual from Rei II is kind of a major plot point, which I think kinda gets ruined by the implication that Rei II absorbed some or all of her memories after she died.
Archer wrote:The thing is though it’s not even something that’s that heavily implied or that even contributes to that moment that much - literally just have Rei II NOT be holding the damn baby doll in that last scene. My problem with it is that its inclusion seems so pointless and throwaway - it adds nothing to that interaction (at least I don’t remember it being directly addressed in the dialog) but it undercuts Ayanami’s entire character in 3.0+1.0, which is entirely built around the idea that she is her own person separate from Rei II.

Okay, but why is the plot point of Rei Q's treatment as a separate individual ruined by the implication that Rei II absorbed her memories? How is Rei Q's entire character in 3+1 undercut? What I'm struggling to understand is why Rei Q's story/experience/personality is diminished by surviving, in some fashion, in Rei II. Some of the other posters below kind of address this but I'd like your take.

Archer wrote:Okay, that dialog only raises the question even harder: why that damn doll? What does it add to the story, or to Rei II’s character, to imply that she has (some of?) Rei Q’s memories?

It adds to the story the concept that Rei Q wasn't totally extinguished when she tanged. Rei II thus has some memories from Rei Q that reinforce Shinji's dialogue about her ability to find a place to belong.

ElMariachi wrote:It's as if Rei Q's character isn't to be considered as her own, but as a "sub-Rei", whose character arc's ultimate aim wasn't a quest of identity and self-realization, but to gain the "right" to be part of the Rei's continuum of character (endorsed by Shinji's "Ayanami is Ayanami") by virtue of being moe enough to melt his (and the audience) heart to be allowed to become part and be used by a "Rei Prime", that in the end, only the "original" actually matters.
Which again, goes against all the themes and story beats used on her in 3.0 and Thrice up until 20 seconds before her death.

I guess I have the same question for you as I do for @Archer above. Why is it bad that Rei Q, a sub-Rei, completes a quest for identify and self-realization before rejoining the Rei continuum of character? Why isn't that beautiful? I think it could be framed as such.

Axx°N N. wrote:"Your Rei is gone forever ... unless?" :rei_poke:

SPOILER: Show
It's confused when compared to NGE, which didn't have a tendency to hammer down all its nails. But NTE's storytelling approach seems to be bait & switch pretty routinely. For example, there are entire factions who function as homogeneous emotional environments for the sake of effect. Wille is extremely hostile and alienating at the time the storytelling needs Shinji to face conflict, Third village is extremely kind, compassionate and welcoming at the time the storytelling needs Shinji be nudged toward self-growth. Both groups are how they are with very little deliberation, even when the decisions should warrant skepticism from group members, until a fork in the road is hit and said skepticism would be dramatically expedient. It wouldn't take much effort for anyone involved to see Wille's approach as shooting oneself in the foot; Shinji is potentially dangerous as an ascended being, so we should do things which .. upset him and provide zero incentive not to vamoose? And with Third village, the world is all but destroyed, there's an active enemy who can roll out thousands of evil tech at a finger snap, and so who is perfectly capable of and has no reason not to be trying subterfuge at any moment with any means possible, so strangers to the village should ... be allowed to commingle after the most milquetoast of hesitation? The world was shrunk to an nth of its population because of the judgment and decisions of people tasked with not letting that happen, but Toji and Kensuke as county doctor and handyman respectively command enough trust to palliate any concerns out of sheer character vetting ... of a clone made by said enemy who could, for all anyone knows, be programmed with a kill code. Sense of characters as humans who can reason doesn't seem to be prioritized over the requirement that the narrative arc assume its shape. Point A must segue to Point B, and unfortunately it often involves a glossing over of how we get there. Rewrites are framed as misguided escapism because it's useful for drama in the moment in 3.0, but without much argument they become good again in Thrice because what matters more than exploring the fundamentals of the decision-making is that the characters get unambiguous happy endings. Ergo, ways in which the central conflicts logically shouldn't be resolved by mere removal of Evangelion units isn't as big of a concern as making something the scapegoat and playing along as if it were a solution that makes sense.

I love your perspective and I'm tempted to write an effortpost in response to the spoiler text but for once I think you're too far off-topic. :asuka_ohoho:

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:49 pm

View Original PostArcher wrote:which I think kinda gets ruined by the implication that Rei II absorbed some or all of her memories after she died.

I don't think this is what happens. In the pseudo reality the end of Shin Eva is set in, a callback like that is just enacted directly by the characters. ReiQ is still refered to as "another one like you" by Shinji IIRC.
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Archer » Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:14 am

Okay, but why is the plot point of Rei Q's treatment as a separate individual ruined by the implication that Rei II absorbed her memories? How is Rei Q's entire character in 3+1 undercut? What I'm struggling to understand is why Rei Q's story/experience/personality is diminished by surviving, in some fashion, in Rei II. Some of the other posters below kind of address this but I'd like your take.

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I thought it was pretty clear - if literally the entire point of a character is that she is a completely separate entity from a different character who looks like her and shares her name, then giving the one thing that makes her unique (her memories) to Rei II diminishes her uniqueness as an individual.

It adds to the story the concept that Rei Q wasn't totally extinguished when she tanged. Rei II thus has some memories from Rei Q that reinforce Shinji's dialogue about her ability to find a place to belong.

And what does THAT add to the story? If anything I think it would be more impactful if her memory lived on metaphorically, in the same way that a dead person can continue to influence the real world by the impact they had on the people around them. Rei II can take inspiration from Rei Q’s life WITHOUT literally absorbing her memories.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby nerv bae » Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:51 am

View Original PostArcher wrote:I thought it was pretty clear - if literally the entire point of a character is that she is a completely separate entity from a different character who looks like her and shares her name, then giving the one thing that makes her unique (her memories) to Rei II diminishes her uniqueness as an individual.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse on purpose. I guess I just don't agree that Rei Q's uniqueness as an individual is diminished by continuing to exist, in some form, in Rei II. It's true that Rei Q's memories are no longer in a separate physical entity, but we are not given reason to believe that those memories are therefore altered, reduced, or impaired after being combined with the physical entity that is Rei II. How does the harm take place?

View Original PostArcher wrote:And what does THAT add to the story? If anything I think it would be more impactful if her memory lived on metaphorically, in the same way that a dead person can continue to influence the real world by the impact they had on the people around them. Rei II can take inspiration from Rei Q’s life WITHOUT literally absorbing her memories.

I'm reminded of Kaworu's speech before the collar explodes! There's a separate line of inquiry to be followed around his making that speech in Q and then being effectively resurrected in Shin. Is the import of his speech diminished because he doesn't stay dead? (Haven't formed an opinion about this, just curious.)

kuribo-04 wrote:I don't think this is what happens. In the pseudo reality the end of Shin Eva is set in, a callback like that is just enacted directly by the characters. ReiQ is still refered to as "another one like you" by Shinji IIRC.

That is a tidy solution to this debate! But what does "enacted directly by the characters" mean? Does it mean that Shinji remembers that Rei Q likes Tsubame, and thus places the doll in Rei II's arms using his power over Instrumentality?
Last edited by nerv bae on Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Archer » Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:20 am

My memory is blurry on this, but IIRC Kaworu only appears in flashbacks and within Instrumentality, right? (Not counting the ending, which is likely completely metaphorical). I think, narratively, there’s a difference between a character speaking with the spirit of a dead character who nonetheless stays dead, but can communicate in some limited capacity; versus a dead character who has a part of them live on semi-permanently in the material world. Like, I wouldn’t have minded (would’ve preferred, in fact) if Rei Q had also shown up in that last goodbye scene alongside Rei II.

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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Axx°N N. » Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:21 am

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:How does the harm take place?

Yeah, this is really highlighting for me that there's something insufficient about the arguments re: how one considers death and identity on a continuum. It's not something that even philosophy or science have pegged down unambiguously, so Rei Q = tanged + recombined in some form = bad or totally undermining the death ... isn't cutting it for me.

Not to say that NTE itself leans into this concept heavily as a focal point, but food for thought for the thread: If what made Rei Q unique was her separateness from what I'll call Rei Prime, isn't her tangification and her recombining into a composite form more or less the same in effect? If her identity is unique only when she's on her own, and that ceases to be a fact, and there's no chance to interact on that level again, isn't that a kind of death? In Christianity, treasure trove of Eva allusions that it is, is Jesus' crucifixion somehow undermined and without significance or tragedy because his spirit recombines with his origination? Note here that, just like the mind/identity question is divisive, entire factions of Christian faith are founded on their perspective on the nature of the trinity and how exactly it works in terms of things being separate but whole. Rei Prime is such a different level of consciousness that Rei Q can't be said to really persist as you knew her or at least, not without the entire context of her existence being markedly changed and your interactions with her driven by this new level of existence--and seeing as our handling on what makes a person a person is shaky at best, who's to say that context isn't actually the only determining factor? That being the case, again, would make it a kind of death. (Nearly) every ending to Eva has Shinji rejecting this kind of fused consciousness slaw in favor of recorporealizing, and it's treated as choosing life over death each time. The interesting question for me is, what's the significance of the Rei on the station platform? Is that a composite? Is it Rei Q, and the actual significant death remains Rei II? What does a recorporealizing of Rei suggest?

What actually sticks in my craw regarding all this is, yes, there's a precedent for Rei ascending into this ambiguous composite in past media. But NTE has set up that Asuka is also a clone. So is there now some kind of Asuka Prime?
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:10 am

^
Just to be clear, what do you mean by "Rei Prime": Rei II or the "fusion" of Rei II and Rei Q?
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Re: Thematic confusion regarding Rei III’s identity as her own individual

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Postby Axx°N N. » Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:43 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Just to be clear, what do you mean by "Rei Prime": Rei II or the "fusion" of Rei II and Rei Q?

Sorry for not being totally clear; the latter. I'm not totally convinced of the exact way they might be fused, but for the sake of argument I was assuming it's an absorption of memory and identity. But again, what is the difference between memory and identity? Can't you make a good argument there isn't actually much of, or any, difference? It's a loose question outside of the Eva-specific scenario. The solution is to canonize the existence of souls, but I'm not sure NTE offers consistent guidance on that matter; Rei Q is said to be bereft of a soul, but then she seems to develop a personality anyway. Does that mean she grows a soul?
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