Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby Blockio » Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:33 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:I never said the Jet Alone episode was "planned out".

eldomtom2 wrote:The real answer, of course, is that Seele didn't exist when Jet Alone was written.

You are openly contradicting yourself.
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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:10 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:the only reason it's called "instrumentality" is because it's a reference to the Instrumentality of Mankind series. The original Japanese is "complementation" - the only reason it's "instrumentality" in English is because the Japanese translation of the Instrumentality of Mankind series translated "instrumentality" as "complementation".
Quoting this to affirm that the Kantian implications are at best second-hand. Anno was making fannish reference to Linebarger (aka Corwainer Smith)'s work.
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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby eldomtom2 » Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:56 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:
View Original Posteldomtom2#934979 wrote:I never said the Jet Alone episode was "planned out".

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:The real answer, of course, is that Seele didn't exist when Jet Alone was written.

You are openly contradicting yourself.

I am not. If, hypothetically, nothing was planned out (I'm not saying that this was the case, this is just for the sake of the argument) and everything was created when the episode they first feature in was written, then Seele would not exist when episode 7 was written - but nothing about episode 7 would have been planned out before hand.

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby Blockio » Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:15 pm

Then I fail to see what you are arguing for at all beyond semantics.
The council, whichever name they go by, was quite clearly made out as a shady operation in the overall visual language, with the color-coded holograms, harsh shadows and overall less-than-trustworthy atmosphere; it also invokes similar, very undoubtedly evil councils, that I know for a fact I've seen in earlier scifi anime, although specific examples escape me at the moment.

To reel this back in to the original topic; a reasonable in-universe explanation is that Seele allowed JA to be built specifically so they could sabotage it, thereby putting a significant hit on the PR of alternatives to the Eva program
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:14 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Then I fail to see what you are arguing for at all beyond semantics.
The council, whichever name they go by, was quite clearly made out as a shady operation in the overall visual language, with the color-coded holograms, harsh shadows and overall less-than-trustworthy atmosphere; it also invokes similar, very undoubtedly evil councils, that I know for a fact I've seen in earlier scifi anime, although specific examples escape me at the moment.

I don't see what your point is. Regardless of how sympathetic or otherwise the HIC is presented, they are not at that point established to have any motive to shut down alternate methods of defeating the Angels. Indeed their dialogue in episode 2 suggests they have absolutely no love for the Evangelions and would ditch them if a better Angel-defeating mechanism appeared.

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby SEELE-01 » Sat May 28, 2022 4:40 pm

View Original Postorcot wrote:didn't the same compagny or something similar build the positron cannon similar the space shuttle wasn't NERV's either, it might have been useful to some degree.

During the battle of Ramiel it could have used offensifly to fire the positron rifle better the Shinji did whilst also provide additional power to the canon
During the battle of Ramiel it could have used defensivly to hold up the heathshield whilst providing additional power to the cannon
During the battle of Matariel It could have provided a solution for the powerloss during the fight of armisael (still a plothole to work out a okay concept)
During the battle of armisael, Jet alone would be handy in retrieving Asuka, if you have it the positron cannon it could probably take it out.
During the battle of Zeruel it could have rushed it and inpaled it with the spear of longinus (that said Rei could have done so as wel)

During most of the eva battles it could have taken positron pot shots to the angels

I wouldn't call it useless especialy if you can give it a fake spear


OMG... We were deprived of a world where the JA served as a Boss Borot to Evangelions.
Gendo accepts the robot begrudgingly off-screen during chapter 8 and it's subsequently sent as a decoy every chapter before Evas only for it to be destroyed with minimal effort from the angel in turn. Not destroyed enough for it to be decommissioned... Just enough for it to be funny.
Then, it finally gets its moment to shine defending Nerv from the JSSDF during 25' and is finally laid to rest as it self-destructs in a nuclear-meltdown of glory right before Asuka awakens with Unit 02. :rolleyes:
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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:19 pm

This is an older topic but one question I don't think was addressed is : How omnipotent is SEELE actually, in story ? IIRC, the United Nations still exist. The Japanese military still exist, as they're the ones conducting the assault in EoE (or, if I'm not mistaken, trying to deal conventionally with the Angel before Eva-01 trial by fire in episode 1) even if in NGE world they're under the UN purview (as is the Pacific Fleet which is multinational). There's still at the very least a facade of public governments that SEELE abides by, and also a private economy running (as said before Jet Alone is built by a private consortium). I think there's a couple mentions of budget constraints for NERV. They still have to run those shady dealings with children in some secrecy. And to be glib : They're not so powerful they can get rid of Gendo or replace him at a moment's notice.

Someone earlier also said Jet Alone couldn't kill Angels anyway and according to EvaGeeks, in episode a character acknowledge the lack of AT field but think it's a technical matter that will be resolved "soon enough". Indeed Jet Alone can't kill an angel, but would anyone be aware at that point (or when they launched the project) save for people at NERV ? The army tried to kill the first angel with conventional ordinance. The public thinks Eva are robots, iirc. What an AT Field is would be mostly classified. Jet Alone having its own engine instead of a power cable also objectively is a massive upgrade if you operate in an information vacuum. Of course, the cord is not so much of an issue when you know the Angels will come to you anyway and you can always engage within Tokyo-3, but I doubt the public knows that (wonder if at one point someone asked why they kept coming for Tokyo-3...).

While NERV and SEELE might know Jet Alone is doomed to fail by its very nature, there's plenty of reasons they might want to sabotage it especially if there's still some political theater you have to play to. Plus you can't guarantee if adopted it wouldn't interfere somehow.

I guess it's impossible to really assess how powerful SEELE is... Their members are apparently at the top of the UN ladder and gave enormous influence over public affairs, but it seems to be a very small organization. Even in NERV their number of intelligence assets seems somewhat limited.

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby eldomtom2 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:43 pm

View Original PostAsuQa_PsyOp_Langley wrote:IIRC, the United Nations still exist. The Japanese military still exist, as they're the ones conducting the assault in EoE (or, if I'm not mistaken, trying to deal conventionally with the Angel before Eva-01 trial by fire in episode 1) even if in NGE world they're under the UN purview (as is the Pacific Fleet which is multinational).

This is actually explained in the EoE theatrical pamphlet. The Japanese Self-Defence Forces that exist in our world were merged into the UN Armed Forces after Second Impact, but after that Japan founded the Japanese Strategic Self-Defence Forces as a separate organisation independent of the UN. It all smells of trying to avoid portraying the actual Japanese military as villains.

The JSSDF only appear in EoE. You can tell the difference by details like their hoverjets being dark green, while the UN has light grey ones.

I think there's a couple mentions of budget constraints for NERV.

Really this feels like another instance of sloppy writing where characters and motivations were changed mid-series. In the beginning there's no suggestion that the Human Instrumentality Committee (not yet SEELE at this point) are interested in the Evangelions beyond their ability to defeat Angels (though even then they are highly skeptical and accuse Gendo of nepotism, something that makes no sense considering later revelations in the series), but it's later established that they're a key part of their plan to initiate Instrumentality.

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:05 pm

Ah I did use the wiki to double check and saw the JSSDF, assumed it was the JSDF. Doesn't detract from the larger point but noted. I imagine in episode 1 it's the UN military we see and yes I remember the colour palette in EoE was different, at face value I thought it was to denote it was special forces or make them more sinister.

Yes, there's probably some "working things out along the way" at play with SEELE. They're obviously very influential and powerful, I don't think they're omnipotent.

Edit from 11/01/23 : I read someone somewhere on the Internet saying "Jet Alone could possibly use the Longinus Lance" even if otherwise incapable to beat an Angel.

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby Blockio » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:45 pm

That's..... not technically incorrect, but that's the kind of argument of "I could beat Arnold Schwarzenegger in a fight if the US military gave me a Phalanx Anti-Aircraft system". Yes, you could, but good luck trying to get them to sign off on giving that to you.
I don't think there's any ATF shenanigans involved in carrying Longinus, but I am not seeing anyone who has jurisdiction over Longinus (appears to be in private ownership, after all) giving it over. If its angel-killing properties are even known to the outside in the first place, that is; if the JA crew didn't know that the thing was a oneshot weapon, they wouldn't think to use it in the first place
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:21 am

I think this comes down to how much control you think SEELE (or NERV) has, which is not a very cut and clear topic in the series (they both have a very precise roadmap based on a prophetic text that is seemingly very detailed... But keep having to amend them). Though immensely powerful, I get the impression they still need to keep up the charade to justify the spending and having unsuspecting public authorities at large to tow their line.

It's purely hypothetical but Gendo apparently couldn't suffer the mere idea of having to entertain any competition or alternative. We don't know exactly what the public knows about NERV, Evas or Angels but I think that with the little distorted information they have, Jet Alone possibly introduce some inconvenient questions : Why not power Evas with a nuclear reactor (especially with Nevada being wiped off the map some time later, you'd think this might be up for debate...) ? Why not use remote controls instead of inserting kids into giant robots ?

It's not really the direction the series wanted to go ultimately and all the political jockeying aspects you have in NGE are probably vestigial directions from earlier outlines or something that midway through they streamlined into just having SEELE.

Edit : Confronting the absurdity of giant monsters with real life political red tape (but also the power of humans when they act in one direction) is definitely something the Eva team loves given how it's the core of Shin Godzilla and Shin Ultraman. Felt it was scrapped for lack of time and not working with the perspective of the Eva story where the claustrophobic human drama at NERV and the intricacies of what Evangelions are has to take center stage.

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Re: Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

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Postby SEELE-01 » Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:43 pm

View Original PostAsuQa_PsyOp_Langley wrote:It's purely hypothetical but Gendo apparently couldn't suffer the mere idea of having to entertain any competition or alternative. We don't know exactly what the public knows about NERV, Evas or Angels but I think that with the little distorted information they have, Jet Alone possibly introduce some inconvenient questions : Why not power Evas with a nuclear reactor (especially with Nevada being wiped off the map some time later, you'd think this might be up for debate...) ? Why not use remote controls instead of inserting kids into giant robots ?


I think this is pretty much it.
In view of arguably better alternatives, why do it in such a convoluted way?
But this of course stems from the JA's dev. team a poor understanding (and by that I mean absolute censorship and gaslighting by Nerv and SEELE) of how the Evas actually worked and what the Angels actually were...
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