AuraTwilight wrote:Rei's soul has been ripped in HALF. There's your answer. Compare Rei 1 and Rei 2.

Rei is like Voldemort?
Everything makes sense now!

Ugh, I really hate this "soul splitting" business, even if it's what the creators were going for (which I doubt in a lot of cases). It's chopping up souls like a pizza in order to fill in gaps in knowledge/plot holes/mysteries. But that's a whole other thing...

Warren Peace wrote:Ugh, I really hate this "soul splitting" business, even if it's what the creators were going for (which I doubt in a lot of cases). I think we're getting in the habit of chopping up souls like a pizza in order to fill in gaps in knowledge/plot holes/mysteries. But that's a whole other thing...

Ah, no we're not. There's solid evidence that Rei II had Lilith's soul, that this soul was different from the soul in Rei I/Unit 00, and that Lilith herself had something to work with (since she could welcome Rei III back in EoE). Since there's only one soul to work with there the only conclusion is that it was somehow divided (we have confirmation that soul division is possible thanks to the CI entry on Kyoko).

It's not fanwank. It's taking what the CI tells us and connecting the dots as best we can. Like it or not nothing else offered to date makes any sense.

It only adds up even halfway when it comes to Kyoko. The rest is closer to fanwank. In the Unit-00 incident, we have Shinji's weird vision and the reference to Rei-01 in the script. That's it. In Kyoko's case, it was about duality, about cutting a personality in half. Motherly and destructive. Chopping up Lilith's soul is "how many Reis can dance on the head of a needle" stuff necessitated by Anno's explainophobia. Kyoko is the ONLY officially documented case of soul splitting.

But like I said, it almost doesn't matter. If how you characterize things is what they intended, that's just supreme laziness (on their part). "You get some of Lilith's soul, and you do too, but not you, you get the piece of her soul that the other one had and-"

Ugh.

Warren Peace wrote:It only adds up even halfway when it comes to Kyoko.

Eh? It's stated outright with Kyoko, so it adds up completely.

The rest is closer to fanwank. In the Unit-00 incident, we have Shinji's weird vision and the reference to Rei-01 in the script. That's it.

That's pretty compelling.

In Kyoko's case, it was about duality, about cutting a personality in half. Motherly and destructive. Chopping up Lilith's soul is "how many Reis can dance on the head of a needle" stuff necessitated by Anno's explainophobia. Kyoko is the ONLY officially documented case of soul splitting.

...and your explanation for the many Reis is...? We know that NERV is capable of harvesting souls and implanting them in bodies. We know that they know about Kyoko's case. So why not do it deliberately? Why not conclude that this is what was done when it's literally the only way to make sense of the Rei situation?

But like I said, it almost doesn't matter. If how you characterize things is what they intended, that's just supreme laziness (on their part). "You get some of Lilith's soul, and you do too, but not you, you get the other piece of her soul that the first one had and-"

Not really. I would expect the source of all life on Earth to be able to swing a few tricks like that. And, given the way Rei played out, it's clear Anno put a fair bit of thought into it. Nothing lazy about it at all.

Remember, "I don't like it" is not a synonym for "it's bad writing."[/quote]

Well, if you really wanna know my fanwank, it's that Rei gets her own new soul in addition to Lilith's when the latter is implanted into a new Rei body. That explains how (at least) two people can be in different places at the same time. So Rei-01 dies, gets shoved in Unit-00 somehow, and Rei-02 is born anew as the sole current possessor of Lilith's soul. Yeah, it's just as much BS as yours, but mine is slightly less stupid and less complicated and no one is pizzafied. BS is unavoidable here no matter what you think, because there is literally not enough official information to form a logical conclusion. Shinji's vision and the Rei-01 reference are not "compelling" evidence for soul splitting, they are context free. They could mean anything. And we only know about Rei-01 because of access to the script! There is no evidence that Kyoko's situation is a regular occurrence in the Eva universe. There is no evidence for anything.

And you know what? That's fine. The science behind Rei's creation isn't relevant to Anno's story so he left it out. We shouldn't care about it. But we do anyway.

Anyway, my last word on the subject here, it's too off topic and there's nothing much else to add. Remember, "it's AN explanation" is not a synonym for "it's THE explanation".

Rei's personality issues are far too uniquely weird to be boiled down to any particular known diagnosis. That said, I still think that she was designed to fit the description of Schizoid Personality Disorder without actually having it.

Warren Peace wrote:Well, if you really wanna know my fanwank, it's that Rei gets her own soul in addition to Lilith's when the latter is implanted into a Rei body. That explains how (at least) two people can be in different places at the same time. So Rei-01 dies, gets shoved in Unit-00 somehow, and Rei-02 is born anew as the sole current possessor of Lilith's soul. Yeah, it's just as much BS as yours, but mine is slightly less stupid and less complicated and no one is pizzafied.

Ah, no. See, your theory requires the generation of souls, which is something that doesn't happen in NGE. It's actually a central plot point (i.e., it's the reason Evas have the souls of humans instead of their own). Ritsuko explained this when she blew up the Reiquarium.

So no, doesn't work. Sorry. The default theory works because it actually explains shit without contradicting evidence from the show.

BS is unavoidable here no matter what you think, because there is literally not enough official information to form a logical conclusion. Shinji's vision and the Rei-01 reference are not "compelling" evidence for soul splitting, they are context free. They could mean anything. And we only know about Rei-01 because of access to the script! There is no evidence that Kyoko's situation is a regular occurrence in the Eva universe. There is no evidence for anything.

That's simply not true. None of it. If two different things called "Rei" are in two different places at the same time that is indeed evidence for soul splitting. An identification in the script is evidence, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. And if Shinji's vision looks like the thing called Rei I that suggests that it is Rei I. You can dismiss these things if you like, but that doesn't make them any less compelling. Simple assertion is neither evidence nor argument.

Anyway, my last word on the subject here, it's too off topic and there's nothing much else to add. Remember, "it's AN explanation" is not a synonym for "it's THE explanation".

No one's claimed as much. We just haven't encountered anything better in the past 15 years or so (well, closer to 10 for me, but still).

NemZ wrote:Rei's personality issues are far too uniquely weird to be boiled down to any particular known diagnosis.

This seems to hold with people in general IME, but Rei's definitely a unique case.

That said, I still think that she was designed to fit the description of Schizoid Personality Disorder without actually having it.

That's an interesting (and apt) way of looking at it.

I believe that Rei was raised by an Aspie, which would have had some environmental influences on her, especially if she didn't communicate much with other people.

(Gendo being an Aspie is a conclusion I arrived at near the end of the final movie. His back story made this make sense to me. Just a hypothesis, of course).

Even with the sci-fi factors accounted for, I think Rei is an Alexi by definition (alexithymia).
More than half of Alexis are autistic, so I can see how a portion of autistics feel like she's relatable. Another portion of Alexis are neurotypical as it's something that can be developed as a result of either trauma or growing up in an emotionally confusing environment.

To address the theories that she has schizoid personality disorder;
A psychologist said the exact same thing about me at the age of 6 due to a "lack of emotion". However... taa-daa! I'm an Alexi!
Mine is built in as part of my autism.
Rei's is likely environmental (not being fully human would probably have this effect too).

A person with SPD has a deficit of emotions, which I don't think is Rei's case.
Alexis feel emotions, sometimes very strong emotions, but we have a lot of difficulty understanding them.
We can cry and have no idea why because we don't feel the connection between the situation and what's setting off the tear ducts, even if we know we're witnessing something sad.

The most common honest answer to "how do you feel" is "I don't know".
Not knowing how to feel in situations and asking people "what would you feel at a time like this" is very familiar

Alexis do sometimes have a couple of emotions missing or hard to access (anger in my case), but a couple of other emotions are heightened and the rest are just really hard to identify.

Holy thread necromancy, Batman! It's been forever since I've seen this...

AWinters wrote:(Gendo being an Aspie is a conclusion I arrived at near the end of the final movie. His back story made this make sense to me. Just a hypothesis, of course).

You mean 3.0 + 1.0? That's in a different continuity altogether. The backstory for Gendo, limited as it is, is available in Episode 21, and it paints him as less of an Aspie and more of a brilliant person growing up in an abusive environment, and thus turning to straight-up villainy. Rebuild's take on Gendo is quite distinctive and unique, leading to a whole different character than the one we're used to in the TV series.

That being said, I wasn't familiar with Alexithymia and had to look it up, and at a cursory glance it appears to describe Rei very well indeed.

I don't have the time ATM to look up the relevant quote, but Anno did say at one point that Rei didn't lack emotions but simply didn't understand them - and indeed, she does visually display emotions quite strongly throughout the show. Very interesting indeed.

On a personal note, I'm sorry to hear about your own Alexithymia. It's not something that I completely understand, but I think I have an inkling of what you're going through.

UrsusArctos wrote:You mean 3.0 + 1.0? That's in a different continuity altogether. The backstory for Gendo, limited as it is, is available in Episode 21, and it paints him as less of an Aspie and more of a brilliant person growing up in an abusive environment, and thus turning to straight-up villainy. Rebuild's take on Gendo is quite distinctive and unique, leading to a whole different character than the one we're used to in the TV series.

My bad, I forgot to check which forum this was in and I forget to separate universes when analysing characters. I forget they differ.
Might he have been an Aspie in one universe, but not the other?

I must admit, I completely missed the reference to Gendo's upbringing in an abusive environment in episode 21, or maybe the dub missed it out.

UrsusArctos wrote:On a personal note, I'm sorry to hear about your own Alexithymia. It's not something that I completely understand, but I think I have an inkling of what you're going through.

Thank you, I appreciate this. I am ok with alexithymia, it's always been my normal, so I don't know any different.
My heightened sense of humiliation is the only part I would trade in, but I'm good with not feeling anger or loneliness - I've only heard bad reviews anyway XD

SaVaGe wrote:

Ricky O wrote:Just THROWING THIS OUT THERE.

Bland affect.

Unable to relate to others.

Difficulty with personal space.

Difficulties understanding non-verbal cues.

Lack of perspective on "the big picture."

Seemingly emotionless, emotions at the wrong times.

Sweet and caring deep down (this one's mine).

Okay, so, DISCUSS.

A lot of that actually sounds like the manga Kaworu to me.

Manga Kaworu is my most relatable character.
I personally associate him with Autistic ADHD based Alexithymia (same as me) and he even demonstrated the Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria trait (I paused on that page, I kind of felt it).
Rei is more like environmentally developed Alexithymia from being isolated and having no sense of defiance to protect herself with.

AWinters wrote:I must admit, I completely missed the reference to Gendo's upbringing in an abusive environment in episode 21, or maybe the dub missed it out.

I must clarify that there's no direct reference to abuse, but it seems a likely inference. When Fuyutsuki first meets Gendo in Episode 21 and tells him off for being beaten up in a drunken brawl, Gendo explains that he was picked on for a fight at first, and "I'm not very good at being liked, but I am used to being treated coldly" (Platinum subtitle translation). This exchange, Gendo's cynicism and his revelation in End of Evangelion that he refuses to be close to Shinji for fear of harming him, all suggest a poor upbringing in NGE, perhaps a violent or negligent father. Although it is speculative, it would make an interesting NGE parallel with Ritsuko if true, a child repeating the mistakes made by the parent of the same sex.

In 3.0 + 1.0, he really does come off as an Aspie - but this part of Gendo's backstory is unique to the Rebuild continuity and isn't hinted at anywhere in NGE. Gendo, like Asuka, is a very different character. Also of note, Gendo's original name in NGE was Gendo Rokubungi and he took on the surname "Ikari" after marrying Yui Ikari, who was implicitly of far higher social status than he. However, in the Rebuild continuity, Gendo's name was already Gendo Ikari, with Yui's maiden name being Ayanami. It's one of those small backstory details that indicate that this is actually a different character from the one we're used to, despite the superficial familiarity between the two.

I hadn't thought about how different they are between worlds, their differences really are vast when they're added up.

Your analysis is helpful, thank you. It looks like the dub did in fact make the wording less obvious in this context.
Gendo's line was "I'm not used to being liked, but I'm quite familiar with hatred", which to me, comes across like "I just don't get along with people because I'm not likeable".

AWinters wrote:Gendo's line was "I'm not used to being liked, but I'm quite familiar with hatred", which to me, comes across like "I just don't get along with people because I'm not likeable".

That is also a perfectly valid interpretation of the line. Gendo is quite a mystery man in NGE, and the suggestion that Gendo was raised in a violent, negligent or abusive family is, I repeat, speculation. There is no concrete evidence or backstory for him in the TV show continuity that clearly shows a poor upbringing. However, it seems a rational explanation for why Gendo himself thinks he's unlikeable.

A lot of people are unlikeable and get into trouble but most of them tend to rationalize their behavior by thinking of themselves as superior to others, and think of others as being jealous or hateful of them - having a "positive self-image" like psychologists say. But Gendo's self-image is negative and stays that way throughout the series. At this stage, Gendo has "internalized" a lot of hatred for himself and as a result he accepts the idea that people hate him and doesn't think he'll be liked or loved by anyone else even if he wants to be liked (Yui, it seems, profoundly changes this). It's no coincidence that Shinji, who has been neglected by Gendo and deprived of parental care, thinks in much the same way.

Notice that when Gendo meets Fuyutsuki for the first time, he's holding his arm in a manner less consistent with that arm being injured and more in a manner consistent with someone who is anxious and subconsciously putting up a barrier in front of them : there's a part of Gendo that wants to be liked and accepted by Fuyutsuki, and it comes out subconsciously even though he tries to put up a smug appearance and casually dismisses the idea of being liked.

That's a pretty interesting find regarding the difference in names. It's clear that the story revolves around Gendo and Shinji, with Yui pretty much absent throughout the series.

It just occurred to me that in both universes, Gendo wears what appear to be dyslexia glasses.
Could that be a hint towards a mixed neurotype?
Having dyslexia wouldn't add anything to the plot, but it could be used as a way of telling us that he's not neurotypical.