How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby PFARN » Wed May 18, 2022 4:37 pm

Some days ago I finished to watch the rebuilds and I think something:

First: The rebuilds are a kind of reality created by Shinji to fix his errors and be happy, but as he doesn't understood everything in NGE and EOE, so, he continues making errors. :emogendo:

Second: For me the rebuilds was incredible especially for the relations that I made with the original series and some theory's that I made, but in EvaGeeks I found more theories and I'm thinking about rewatching the Rebuilds again :D .

Third: Also think if the rebuilds was another reality created by Shinji, that's explain why a lot of things are on German (I associate it as Shinji thinks on Asuka too) ^_^

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Postby nerv bae » Thu May 19, 2022 7:39 am

View Original PostPFARN wrote:Second: For me the rebuilds was incredible especially for the relations that I made with the original series and some theory's that I made, but in EvaGeeks I found more theories and I'm thinking about rewatching the Rebuilds again :D .

Do it! They benefit from repeated viewing IMO.

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Postby PFARN » Thu May 19, 2022 12:12 pm

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:
View Original PostPFARN#935622 wrote:Second: For me the rebuilds was incredible especially for the relations that I made with the original series and some theory's that I made, but in EvaGeeks I found more theories and I'm thinking about rewatching the Rebuilds again :D .

Do it! They benefit from repeated viewing IMO.


Nice, I'm thinking on take note about the Mari's and Asuka's part specially. :mari_nya:

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Postby roblucci01 » Sun May 22, 2022 7:14 am

Maybe I'm alone in thinking this way, but the more I reflect upon how I feel about Shin Evangelion and all of the other endings including the manga, the more I hate the NGE Episode 25 and 26 TV ending.

Episode 25 and 26 endlessly browbeat the audience over the head with the idea that "you can't love others until you love yourself" through only dialogue as opposed to real character development via actual events or experiences. I'll put aside the fact that I don't think this actually represents the holistic thematic brilliance of Evangelion... But regardless, why does Shinji suddenly just snap out of it with no catalyst whatsoever, and immediately find self-acknowledgement? He breaks the metaphorical glass wall holding him back, only to be surrounded by everyone applauding and providing him with external validation, which I feel unironically completely defeats the purpose of the message. There's also not even any mention of how the other characters worked through their identity crises - Misato, Asuka, and Rei's character development arcs are all shoved to the side so they can clap/congratulate Shinji and wrap up the show.

I feel Thrice Upon a Time was superior to the TV ending in just about every regard. End of Evangelion still holds the crown though.

Unfortunately, I feel over time the public perception of Shin Evangelion will continue to decline as the afterglow fades, and it will be viewed extremely negatively by the Evangelion fandom and greater anime community. NTE will be disregarded as just another soulless reboot cashgrab when that couldn't be farther from the truth. Matrix Resurrections was a soulless cashgrab. Dragonball Super was a soulless cashgrab. Star Wars 7-9 were soulless cashgrabs. The new Evangelion films have flaws but it is so ludicrously unfair to compare NTE to those. A TON of love and passion went into NTE.

Call me contrarian, or high on copium, but recently I have been finding many aspects of the original Evangelion TV anime to just be straight up bad, from Magmadiver, to Liliputian Hatcher, to the pointless recap episode, to the TV ending. So while NTE is held to increasingly higher standards and scrutiny, NGE is viewed through rose colored glasses and has been given a lot of passes, in my opinion.
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Postby BernardoCairo » Sun May 22, 2022 8:32 pm

I don't see your point whatsoever. If anything, NTE Shinji also just changes out of nowhere. Episodes 25 and 26 aren't meant to be conventional by design. They're experimental. They're actual art, shaped by their author's inner thoughts and desires.
Shinji receives validation from others precisely because the whole point of the ending is that the problem was in how he interacted with others all along. He was convinced that he was worthless and unwanted. By embracing himself first and foremost, he was able to experience this other side of his peers. It's an ending about learning how to love life! There's no time wasted in CG fights and nonsensical screaming. It is what it is.
I think it's funny how you say that Misato and Asuka's character development was shoved in favor of Shinji's, when episode 25 is all about the two (and a bit of Rei). I mean, they're two of the three main cases. I can 100% assure to you that both were much more fleshed out in episode 25 than the entirety of Shin. Asuka's "conclusion" in Shin got what? 2 minutes of screentime?
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Postby roblucci01 » Mon May 23, 2022 4:29 am

View Original PostBernardoCairo#935693 wrote:I don't see your point whatsoever. If anything, NTE Shinji also just changes out of nowhere.


This is simply inaccurate. Shinji's character development in NTE came in waves, with highs and lows.

In Q, Shinji was rather lost at the beginning of the film, and had to re-discover joy through piano. In Shin, Shinji once again was lost, and had to literally touch grass first before he could actually connect with people on an emotional level again.

I think some viewers mistakenly interpret Rei's conversation with Shinji by the old Eva hanger and her line of "because we like you" as an emotional scapegoat for Shinji. My interpretation is that it did not really provide Shinji with any inner comfort; rather, considering Rei's role and contributions to the village community, he figured "Well what the hell, maybe I should try that." There are still sequences where Shinji is alone after that scene. Am I to think that Shinji felt his problems were suficiently resolved after that point?

My impression is that Shinji spent a significant amount of time seriously thinking through his problems and reflecting upon his choices, while also finding greater appreciation for nature and the community he had become a part of. This is evident from his later conversations with Asuka and Misato aboard the WUNDER. It's one thing for Shinji to learn how to love himself after having made mistakes; it's another thing entirely for him to understand why and how his choices hurt others, and to subsequently forgive himself.

The TV ending has a very direct message. Due to time constraints, episodes 26 prioritizes telling me the message, rather than showing me what this lifestyle philosophy would look like in practice. I've never met a single person who's emotional suffering was healed because they quickly decided what other people think of them is irrelevant, only loving the person they are inside matters. Circumstances don't usually afford individuals that luxury - a few examples from fiction that come to mind, Raiden, Bruce Wayne, Jesse Pinkman.

More realistically, I think people endlessly experience cycles of pain and joy, errors and accomplishments, humiliation and pride, shame and forgiveness, rejection and validation, hate and love, conflict and peace. Episode 26 is kind of setting up Shinji for failure (assuming he returns to the real world after instrumentality). EoE handles this better - Shinji understands that pain and rejection are a part of life, as are love and joy. No mention is made as to whether or not Shinji needs to love himself as a person, because it's not really relevant to the narrative arc that is the movie ending.

Finally, Shin Evangelion shows me Shinji's maturity as a character because he: a) came to terms with his choices and forgave himself; b) grew a real appreciation for nature and community; c) finally became the one who could free the other three NGE pilots and Gendo from their roles as worn-out tropes - tropes that Anno helped to pioneer, which have greatly overstayed their welcome in anime/otaku culture. I liked that Anno chose to depict Shinji's growth as a series of ups and downs as opposed to excessive psychosomatic dream sequences.

Episodes 25 and 26 aren't meant to be conventional by design. They're experimental. They're actual art, shaped by their author's inner thoughts and desires.


I don't think that matters though. I agree with you that the TV ending is certainly experimental and artistic. It's also bad.

I think it's funny how you say that Misato and Asuka's character development was shoved in favor of Shinji's, when episode 25 is all about the two (and a bit of Rei). I mean, they're two of the three main cases. I can 100% assure to you that both were much more fleshed out in episode 25 than the entirety of Shin. Asuka's "conclusion" in Shin got what? 2 minutes of screentime?


Episode 25 mostly only regurgitated things we already knew about those characters. I already knew that Misato used sex as escapism from her problems, hated her father, but also sought out Kaji because he reminded her of her father. I already knew that Asuka suffered from trauma because she watched her Mom go crazy, and thus aggressively tried to show the world she didn't need anyone else as a self-defense/coping mechanism.

Actually most of the TV ending in general was regurgitated information. 25 is a recap episode with extra steps.


I'll admit - Shin Evangelion does not break new ground thematically, it doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, and doesn't push the creative medium. It doesn't need to. That still doesn't make it a soulless cash grab void of creativity or passion.
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Postby Blockio » Mon May 23, 2022 12:27 pm

I feel the need to point out that "I did not like it" does not equal "it is bad"

I also take issue with the assertion that EoTV is "a recap episode with extra steps" and "only regurgitates things we already know". Of course a character study like this has to build off of something that is already there, but it does significantly more than that, by pushing those things we know to their logical extreme conclusions, and the characters to their breaking point alongside it.
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Postby Konja7 » Mon May 23, 2022 12:53 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:I think it's funny how you say that Misato and Asuka's character development was shoved in favor of Shinji's, when episode 25 is all about the two (and a bit of Rei). I mean, they're two of the three main cases. I can 100% assure to you that both were much more fleshed out in episode 25 than the entirety of Shin. Asuka's "conclusion" in Shin got what? 2 minutes of screentime?

This is a matter of opinion, but it's totally valid that people dislike the lack of resolution on conflicts for Asuka, Misato and Rei.

We may like the introspection in Episode 25, but that doesn't change that their stories are left unfinished in favor of resolving Shinji's conflict in Episode 26.



View Original PostBlockio wrote:I feel the need to point out that "I did not like it" does not equal "it is bad"

To be fair, when people don't like something, they often say it's bad. I mean, we've already seen many people say NTE is bad, because they don't like it.



View Original PostBlockio wrote:I also take issue with the assertion that EoTV is "a recap episode with extra steps" and "only regurgitates things we already know". Of course a character study like this has to build off of something that is already there, but it does significantly more than that, by pushing those things we know to their logical extreme conclusions, and the characters to their breaking point alongside it.

It is an opinion. Although I enjoyed Episodes 25 and 26, I totally understand why people could dislike how the story and characters arc were left unfinished.

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Postby Axx°N N. » Wed May 25, 2022 1:01 am

It's not just introspection though, it's a breakdown of physical form into a joined mental state--it's literally happening, it's not figurative. The event that takes it from point A (tangible reality) to point B (mind-meld psychodrama) is an event that follows on plot momentum, even though it happens offscreen. Does that actually mean story and character are unfinished and things are unresolved, or is it merely a story, approach to character and resolution that is unconventional?
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Postby Konja7 » Wed May 25, 2022 4:13 am

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:It's not just introspection though, it's a breakdown of physical form into a joined mental state--it's literally happening, it's not figurative. The event that takes it from point A (tangible reality) to point B (mind-meld psychodrama) is an event that follows on plot momentum, even though it happens offscreen. Does that actually mean story and character are unfinished and things are unresolved, or is it merely a story, approach to character and resolution that is unconventional?

Well, as this is the Instrumentality, we can say the story was completed. Although the ending was still confusing and left many unanswered questions for the audience about the plot.

I should say the arcs for Asuka and Misato are still unfinised, since Episode 26 focus on Shinji's resolution.


Even although EoE is considered a different ending, I think it makes easier to accept the ending of Episodes 25 and 26, since EoE answers many question and helps to fill the holes in these Episodes.

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Postby ArtyumR » Sat May 28, 2022 8:17 am

1.0 --- 7/10
2.0 ---- 6/10
3.0 ----- 4/10
3.0+1.0 --- 4/10.

3.0+1.0 was so bad that ...I really don't want to talk about "you (can) not redo" except you actually can and reset the world (and don't bullshit me with rewrite the world when the fucking movie makes clear it's the same shit at the end) fuck that ..that's escapism as fuck .
Hideaki what did you do, you were supposed to be the chosen one. Why did you make your magnum opus into another escapism fantasy? fuck ..

I've read your answers guys after the movie was released and you were crying 'cause it was a happy ending or some shit..

3.0+1.0 became a complete mess of pseudoscience, nonsensical vaguely Christian babble, and people infodumping stuff the previous movies should have established earlier and not in 20 minutes..terrible. shame on you!!!

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Postby Blockio » Sat May 28, 2022 12:37 pm

I fundamentally disagree with the notion that reshaping the world into something better is the same as just resetting it. It demonstrably isn't, most pressingly by virtue of the status quo being entirely unlike anything before it.

And I disagree even more with the notion that GoatJesus was right, dude's just a self-absorbed crybaby mad that his bullshit about Mk.06 and half the movie being a flashback entirely predictably wasn't the case after all. :rofl:
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Postby Axx°N N. » Sun May 29, 2022 3:43 am

Rewatched Thrice again and, once again, have a dire need to express my disappointment.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I fundamentally disagree with the notion that reshaping the world into something better is the same as just resetting it.

This feels like semantics and a cudgel against anyone who finds the Neon Genesis reality reform to fall flat. The poster themselves anticipated this by saying it's inaccurate but doesn't matter, and I have to agree; frankly, I find it a stupid storytelling choice and so it doesn't really deserve splitting hairs. In effect both the reformed world and a reset world have the exact same problem for those it doesn't jibe with as a creative choice: actual reality can't be reshaped (just as it can't be reset), and so it doesn't have any applicable meaning outside of itself, and it falls under the same category of contrived storytelling omnipotence. NGE and EoE featured reality melting (and the latter the promise of reconstitution), but it felt grounded (or at least restricted in any way) and like it was an analog to something real.

I don't mean to strawman you, and I'm speaking more generally about my perception of a recurring tone in debate on Thrice across the internet, which I've revisited along with my rewatch: someone shares grievance over the ending being off-base, and they're shut down in a way that isn't just about disagreement on storytelling--you begin to see it devolve into personal territory, where the charge comes up that that person doesn't understand the poignancy and wisdom of life as Anno is perceived to via Thrice. I suppose this is the natural outcome when so much of the film is dedicated to what life is all about, and I'm not saying any of its philosophical points are woefully lost or anything, I just don't think it nailed turning it into story or emotion.

I think the main problem is there's horrible storytelling economy, confounded by giving way too much time to the wrong things overall, but that's well-explored elsewhere in the thread. Eg, Shinji's life can be full of whatever boundless possibility the ending is trying to suggest for its new reality just as it can in a non-reformed reality, too, and the fact that the new reality is completely ambiguous and unexplored makes it confused as being literal or metaphor or whatever. I truly don't see its function, or in other words, why it had to be as abstract as it is to accomplish what it's trying to accomplish. It's so open-ended that it's paradoxically imagination-killing, at least to me, but I'm sure someone will chime in with "Anno is a genius, that was the point, touch grass," etc. But there's really nothing to sink your teeth into; I'm not interested in what Shinji might get up to, because I'm not convinced anything that happened fundamentally changed or accomplished anything for the better, not least of all that the removal of Evangelion isn't justified as being meaningful in any way but what the film insists without really exploring. It's all statement, no argument.

The virtue being exhibited by Shinji when he tries to reconcile his needs with those of others is fine on paper, it's good to strive for in life, but it's categorically untrue that the world's most evil figures can or ever will get the talk-no-jutsu hug of understanding that fixes everything. The more time that passes (and the more rewatches I try to give it) the more I'm disappointed that Thrice exhibits a really shallow handle of the nuance and hardship involved in actual life. To me it's a ramshackle built out of janky technobabble, weightless action scenes with no tension, flanderizing exposition, unexplored characters, platitudes, and a flimsy worldbuilding transformed into a deeply unintelligible new world. I resent that I have to be a reductionist by framing these elements so unfairly (ie, 'Thrice is arguing everything can be solved with an open heart, which is dumb'), but in my eyes Thrice does that to itself and all I can do is express why it's excruciating to sit through.

And I'm not alone; no Eva fan I know in life (which is more than a handful) described Thrice as anything but painful. Where the Matrix sequels were once the gold standard of a huge power gap between the quality of a first thing and a muck-up of a followup, Thrice is now a black sheep among my friends and shorthand for hackery. I was shocked the day after the premier that I saw overwhelming gushing online and still see it defended so profusely at the mere mention of it giving someone a bad time or, what almost feels like near-sacrilege, being merely really really bad. Yes, not liking something subjectively doesn't make it objectively bad, but I personally find Thrice so bad that I find it absurd to require everyone sit down and treat it with that level of consideration and decorum, especially in a "how do you feel" thread where equally off-the-cuff gushing positive responses aren't met with instant pushback. Just because I think it feels right to end on outrageous hyperbole: Thrice almost feels like a mad genius built a machine that converted pitches into films, and the pitch fed into it was "something lacking any conceivable appeal whatsoever."
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Postby Konja7 » Sun May 29, 2022 9:25 am

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:I don't mean to strawman you, and I'm speaking more generally about my perception of a recurring tone in debate on Thrice across the internet, which I've revisited along with my rewatch: someone shares grievance over the ending being off-base, and they're shut down in a way that isn't just about disagreement on storytelling--you begin to see it devolve into personal territory, where the charge comes up that that person doesn't understand the poignancy and wisdom of life as Anno is perceived to via Thrice. I suppose this is the natural outcome when so much of the film is dedicated to what life is all about, and I'm not saying any of its philosophical points are woefully lost or anything, I just don't think it nailed turning it into story or emotion.

Curiously, people who really like Thrice also feel they're shut down when they express their enjoymemt for Thrice in a way that isn't just about disagreement on storytelling.

This is a fandom behaviour. I've been in many forums, many people couldn't just accept that others like or dislike something they don't.



View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:Yes, not liking something subjectively doesn't make it objectively bad, but I personally find Thrice so bad that I find it absurd to require everyone sit down and treat it with that level of consideration and decorum, especially in a "how do you feel" thread where equally off-the-cuff gushing positive responses aren't met with instant pushback. Just because I think it feels right to end on outrageous hyperbole: Thrice almost feels like a mad genius built a machine that converted pitches into films, and the pitch fed into it was "something lacking any conceivable appeal whatsoever."

To be fair, the "not liking something subjectively doesn't make it objectively bad" was mentioned for Episode 25 and 26. I just mentioned that the same thing apply for NTE.

You feel the positive reactions to Thrice don't get as much pushback as the negative reactions in this thread (although I've seen a lot of negative reactions that don't receive pushback), but I'm pretty sure you could find that on other parts of Internet.

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Postby Axx°N N. » Sun May 29, 2022 6:47 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:You feel the positive reactions to Thrice don't get as much pushback as the negative reactions in this thread (although I've seen a lot of negative reactions that don't receive pushback), but I'm pretty sure you could find that on other parts of Internet.

I've read extensively, and I just haven't seen it. No, I haven't poured over every single discussion thread, but here's one just for example: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid= ... lresults=1

Not a single rude remark against Thrice fans, but you get this in reference for those who preferred EoE:

"Massive L if you voted EOE. I remember watching EOE alone in my room last year and kind of forgot it entirely. Watched 4.0 in the company of friends last night and truly felt a sense of warmth. Looked beautiful, felt beautiful. NO LO CONTENDERE. Look into improving your life situation and mental health if you prefer EOE."

"Agreed on the comment above me. If you liked EOE better you're a certified weirdo and you should probably do something about your life decisions."

This is par for the course from what I've seen. Something strikes me as ironic about it, too, because these are the same people professing there to be a wisdom in Thrice's positivity, and yet they're routinely the first to lob ad hominems and make rude caricatures of others. I've yet to see an example of someone telling someone they need to fix themselves for enjoying Thrice, as if it's a personality or spiritual defect. As is the case in that thread, those critical of Thrice are aiming their critique at the film itself.
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Postby Konja7 » Sun May 29, 2022 7:58 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:This is par for the course from what I've seen. Something strikes me as ironic about it, too, because these are the same people professing there to be a wisdom in Thrice's positivity, and yet they're routinely the first to lob ad hominems and make rude caricatures of others. I've yet to see an example of someone telling someone they need to fix themselves for enjoying Thrice, as if it's a personality or spiritual defect. As is the case in that thread, those critical of Thrice are aiming their critique at the film itself.


Well, I don't have any particular examples, but I'm pretty sure I've read people saying that Thrice fans are delusional (or lying to themselves) for liking Thrice. That said, I don't remember where I read it, so I can't offer a source.

Still, I really doubt Thrice fans are the only immature ones in this fandom who attack people with different opinions. It would be very rare for only one side to have immature people.

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Postby mastafishere » Tue May 31, 2022 8:37 pm

I think we can all agree that there are crappy fans in every fandom. Personally, I have faced vitriol for my love for the NTE series on other forums (haven't had any here!) but I'm sure it goes both ways everywhere. A diplomatic reading I'll offer is that people get passionate about Evangelion and NGE and NTE each have things in them that fires up their respective fans and things get heated. I know they do for me! Anyway, I think it's better to focus the discussion on the movies themselves and our feelings on them rather than get into whose fans are the worst.

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Postby Blockio » Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:43 am

Yeah there'd definitely a not insignificant number of people among those who don't like Shin that are quite unreasonable about it. One instance I remember particularily well was someone taking it so badly that they had to be banned from the EGF Discord for derailing every conversation in the spoilers channel about how supposedly terrible the movie was for significant stretches of time.
That being said, I wouldn't take MAL as representative for anything, since by the nature of it being a general purpose catchall place for an entire medium, the opinions on there are not going to be terribly nuanced and more often than not, the only people bothering to post are the vocal minority of either side.

It also strikes me as ironic at the best of times to claim that "your" side of an argument is the reasonable one that doesn't do adhom, and then immediately go on to characterize the "opposite" side as being the worst at every opportunity presented
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The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

BernardoCairo
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Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

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Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:45 am

Despite what everyone says, outside of some private Discord servers, Evageeks is the only place where I can talk trash on the tetralogy without some lunatic coming to me and saying that I am fundamentally wrong. Of course, there's debate. But everyone respect each other's opinions here.
Just sit here and waste your precious time. When you want to do something, don't do it right away. Don't do it when you can. Read my posts instead. It's the only way to live a life without regrets.

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Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

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Postby Zoop » Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:07 pm

A place like EvaGeeks is a whole lot more difficult to create than a Discord server. This is oldschool, good old forums with moderators who aren't complete halfwits.
A Discord server is set up in seconds, just because it gains popularity, doesn't mean the people behind them aren't exactly the worst kind of people who just got described here.
Chat is also more direct, it can leave you with a nasty experience over the span of a few minutes, while on a board, it's slower, theres time for a moderator to step in and to more precise determine what kind of trash has been talked in order to ban people. Do Discord moderators always read all the history? How much sense is there in deleting stuff afterwards?

Evageeks forms moreof an archive, some ancient discussions getting necroed, and that's fine (in fact, encouraged over starting new topics).

So yah. I don't think it's strange a place like this is a lot more friendly, even towards hefty critique as long as you make an attempt at actual conversation.
It's not like crazy folk like that don't come her, sure they do, but the boards are neatly moderated. Something Discord or even Reddit seriously lacks, imo.
As a downside, this place can get somewhat inactive. But like I said, it's more like an archive, like a wiki of it's own, it doesn't always need new topics since there's plenty to read.
Its goal is a bit different when you compare it to a more direct communication channel like a chat.

On a side tangent:
I see you are only 20, youngin :p but online gamin is much comparable. Back in the day (god do I feel old) we had dedicated servers for our Quake, Unreal, Counterstrike, Modern Warfare etc. You found a favourite server, and frequently join the same one. Frequently meet the same people, have conversations in game chats. Toxic people getting kicked/banned by a moderator (more importantly, cheaters get delt with instantly). Thats like these boards.
Noways, games like that are all matchmaking. Just joining randoms. Had a good game with someone? Too bad, next game they're gone. Cheaters only get banned in banwaves after they have already ruined several of your games. Only remedy against shitty brats claiming to have had sex with your mother is to mute em. Cut yourself off of that "community". Sounds much more like Discord, right? /endrant

Not just saying "back in the day, everything was better", just saying, its much easier nowadays to build a community. And thus much more likely to be a toxic one.
Building something as old as Evageeks and for it to still exist, you don't compete easily with that.


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