Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Zoop » Thu May 19, 2022 7:46 am

Hehe thanks for the correction, my point being she was very obviously not alive anymore.
Question remains whether they actually needed the body for the transfer or not.

Since Rei3 isnt exactly the same as Rei2 there are some flaws to the technique (also a big difference between rei1 and rei2, as rei1 was a real lil shit), but good enough to at least have a functioning new Rei (instead of, presumeably, a braindead one, like the ones being used for dummy plugs?). I think it has been theorized that with each clone, lilliths soul gets split in half to put in Rei, so the more clones, the "less" soul left for Rei (and thus the weirder she gets).

Anyhow, bit offtopic, since this is NGE and none of it is proven to be the same in Rebuild.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby AWinters » Thu May 19, 2022 8:38 am

In NGE, Rei III had memories and feelings that she didn't seem to remember, recognising the glasses from the plug incident, but without knowing why.
She associated feelings with situations and objects, but without having the actual memories (very much like inherited information IRL neurology).

Souls tend to get absorbed into LCL, making them possible to obtain. My best guess is that a spare Rei was placed in an individual tank and some of the LCL from the plug was added.
It was necessary in that universe because having to teach her how to walk, talk and pilot all over again is something they would avoid if possible.

Edit:
Perhaps in rebuild; the network of clone tanks instead of one giant tank was working as more of a live update system so that replacements could be taken out with language, survival and motor skills at the ready.
This universe possibly ditched the use of souls altogether and had the clones awoken with programming instead.
Last edited by AWinters on Sat May 21, 2022 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat May 21, 2022 7:11 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I'm for the clone theory (with or without memory transfer - Mari could just simply have known & been raised by her donor. But we know memory transfer tech exists because of Rei.) for 3 reasons:

- In 2.0 Mari complains that the green suit no longer fits properly, says she is piloting for the first time (in a situation where she is essentially talking to herself not acting for anybody's benefit), and that she "doesn't like relying on adults" - & this is not a throwaway line but a focussed-on exposition moment.

- The woman in the photo seems too tall, taller than Yui even. There's no precedent for aging backwards.

- Both Asuka's dialogue with Rei Q & what she says to Shinji about "still being a pseudo lillin" implies that all the pilots are somehow artificial. Nor is it probably a coincidence that Mari has a last name resembling the other 2 clone series.

I wonder if Mari's complains about the suit in 2.0 and the implication that going Beast Mode is was cursed her (in parallel of Asuka's angel-induced and Shinji's pseudo-awakening's extreme plug depth) isn't because Khara didn't settled for a backstory for her yet, and thus said points in 2.0 are retroactive red herrings, or if she is a clone or de-aged Maria that got through growth spurt before being cursed by the Beast Mode. (or maybe this is all a red herring and she's unaging since the beginning)

If we go for the clone theory, then I think that she got all the memories of "Maria", and maybe even her soul: with how she acts knowing much more than everyone else, her monologue to Yui when the spear of Gaius was created as if she knew her personally and Fuyutsuki referring to her with what's implied to be her original name and talking to her as an old companion, it wouldn't make sense if she was just a fresh clone with some of the original's memories rather than the continuation of the "Maria" from Gendo, Fuyu and Yui's past.


View Original PostZoop wrote:I think ReiQ (thats what we call her in the third rebuild movie) doesn't have any memories because they don't need her to.
It's clear ReiQ is much more programmed and obedient.
Maybe they no longer have the capability to do so, lot's of facilities have been destroyed after all. But point is that it doesn't really matter for Gendo's goals at the end.

Storywise, I think they deliberately aren't using techs like these everywhere where you would expect them to (you would expect it on ReiQ) simply to keep stuff like that mysterious and vague, keep us guessing ^_^

The practical reason Rei Q didn't had Rei II's memories is because Gendo didn't had any need for her to have them, in fact it would even be harmful to his plans if she did, because there would had been a good chance for her to rebel and refuse to go abduct Shinji, especially since SEELE and NERV's plan needed to basically emotionally and mentally torture him so he would pilot one last time.

The other reason she doesn't have Rei II's memories are also explained by Gendo himself in Thrice: he only saw Rei as a shadow of Yui, until at some point during the timeskip he came to the conclusion that she had nothing of Yui in her, and thus gave up on using the Ayanami series as anything else but tools. (which implies that he did transferred Rei II's memories to some of three other early batch Reis)
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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby AWinters » Sat May 21, 2022 7:30 am

Just occurred to me;
In Gendo's backstory flashbacks where Mari was hiding in half the pictures (almost like she was spying on him).. that seemed to be very much Mari, rather than the person in the photo who had some slight resemblance.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat May 21, 2022 8:46 am

View Original PostAWinters wrote:Just occurred to me;
In Gendo's backstory flashbacks where Mari was hiding in half the pictures (almost like she was spying on him).. that seemed to be very much Mari, rather than the person in the photo who had some slight resemblance.

The person celebrating Shinji's birth in said flashback also looked exactly like Mari, despite happening barely 3-4 years before the photo of young Shinji with Yui. :bigeyes:
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Konja7 » Sat May 21, 2022 9:26 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:The practical reason Rei Q didn't had Rei II's memories is because Gendo didn't had any need for her to have them, in fact it would even be harmful to his plans if she did, because there would had been a good chance for her to rebel and refuse to go abduct Shinji, especially since SEELE and NERV's plan needed to basically emotionally and mentally torture him so he would pilot one last time.

SEELE and NERV don't exactly emotionally and mentally torture Shinji so he would pilot one last time (their torture started when he was already piloting). It was WILLE crew who was emotionally and mentally torturing Shinji before Rei Q abducted him.

That said, Rei II will likely oppose to abduct Shinji. In 3.0+1.0, it's pretty clear she doesn't want Shinji to pilot the Eva again.

Not to mention that Rei Q released the 12th Angel from Mark-06, which was necessary for that Fourth Impact. Rei II will definitely oppose to that.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat May 21, 2022 10:31 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:SEELE and NERV don't exactly emotionally and mentally torture Shinji so he would pilot one last time (their torture started when he was already piloting). It was WILLE crew who was emotionally and mentally torturing Shinji before Rei Q abducted him.

I highly doubt that the fact that Shinji received Toji's shirt (which was what finally convinced him to ask Kaworu what happened to the world, the latter who would had been happy to keep Shinji in the dark) was a coincidence, and Fuyutsuki's conversation with Shinji (which is was made his sanity take the final nosedive to the mental breakdown and despair) was by Fuyu's own words "a role he had to play" (and I don't think that Mari was the one who asked him).

NERV and SEELE needed Shinji to pilot, which necessitated to have him reach complete despair and near madness out of guilt so he would latch to the redemption that Kaworu offered him (and even then Shinji still refused until Kaworu took the DSS Choker to himself), so from here there's no way that "coincidences" would simply be coincidences.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Konja7 » Sat May 21, 2022 8:05 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I highly doubt that the fact that Shinji received Toji's shirt (which was what finally convinced him to ask Kaworu what happened to the world, the latter who would had been happy to keep Shinji in the dark) was a coincidence, and Fuyutsuki's conversation with Shinji (which is was made his sanity take the final nosedive to the mental breakdown and despair) was by Fuyu's own words "a role he had to play" (and I don't think that Mari was the one who asked him).

You're totally right that Gendo and SEELE were pulling the strings for Shinji to follow their plans. My point was mainly that this manipulation wouldn't be the reason for Rei II to not abduct Shinji from WILLE.

Although Gendo's manipulation to make Shinji pilot again is ruthless, Shinji just received answers to the questions he had (for example: Fuyutsuki tells Shinji the truth about Rei when he was already wondering why Rei Q was so different). Not to mention that WILLE crew would likely be worse at telling Shinji the truth (if they even deigned to answer him).

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun May 22, 2022 4:12 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:You're totally right that Gendo and SEELE were pulling the strings for Shinji to follow their plans. My point was mainly that this manipulation wouldn't be the reason for Rei II to not abduct Shinji from WILLE.

I think we're actually agreeing here: Rei Q with Rei II's memories would probably refuse to abduct Shinji because it's obvious that Gendo and SEELE's intentions toward him are bad. :D

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Although Gendo's manipulation to make Shinji pilot again is ruthless, Shinji just received answers to the questions he had (for example: Fuyutsuki tells Shinji the truth about Rei when he was already wondering why Rei Q was so different). Not to mention that WILLE crew would likely be worse at telling Shinji the truth (if they even deigned to answer him).

Well in the end we never learned how much WILLE intended to tell to Shinji, but I can see them not telling him about the Ayanami series and simply sticking to telling him that he didn't save Rei 14 years ago, since they apparently intended to keep it in an isolated cell where he'll never come in contact with NERV, and if they ever decide to send him to Village 3, that Misato forbids everyone in the know to ever tell him about it. (I mean, they somehow managed to keep the identity of Kaji Jr's parents secret from him despite him being named after the legendary founder of WILLE - and indirectly Kredit)

Still, answering a question is one thing, how to answer it is another: if WILLE ever decide to tell Shinji about the Ayanami series, it'll hard for them to top Fuyu showing rows of decapitated Rei heads! :tongue:
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Archer » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:04 am

View Original PostAWinters wrote:I don't think the kitchen scene was based on anything that happened. Maybe a bit farfetched, but I think that kitchen scene was something or someone influencing his decision to end the world.

Without going back to check… isn’t the kitchen scene derived from when Shinji tells Asuka about Kaji’s death?

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:30 am

Correct. But it only appears in the DC episode 24'; it left me flummoxed going from the original series straight into EoE as to what was going on there, as an obvious callback like the kiss/kick previously, but a callback to nothing seen in the series.
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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby AWinters » Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:38 pm

View Original PostArcher wrote:
View Original PostAWinters#935619 wrote:I don't think the kitchen scene was based on anything that happened. Maybe a bit farfetched, but I think that kitchen scene was something or someone influencing his decision to end the world.

Without going back to check… isn’t the kitchen scene derived from when Shinji tells Asuka about Kaji’s death?

I think you're right about the connection, although I think instrumentality was planting a different version of their dispute into his mind.
The difference was that in the EoE scene, Shinji is the one in mental turmoil instead of Asuka. Almost like he's replaying it, but putting himself in her shoes.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby sithsauron » Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:16 pm

I vote for the Mari clone with memory transfer...

Mari could have been the first to download her personality to a magi computer prototype to eventually re-implant a personality snapshot of herself to a new clone at a future date. a type of donor if you will..

Also Mari is not Nerve's or Seele's pilot... I think she belongs to the IPEA (International Project Evangelion Agency, a third party group)

Remember, Fuyutsuki may have revealed he was a clone with memory implants too in 3.0+1.0 when he got tanged after losing the battle of the Adams Vessels, the same way Rei Q clone was tanged when she ran out of LCL juice in her system. Clones may get tanged under certain conditions...

Leveleee's blogs seems to conclude that the original Mari was somehow involved in the Yui contact experiment where Yui vanished, and as a result the original Mari committed suicide from guilt. That's why Mari was referred to as Mari Iscariot (Judas, traitor to Jesus who committed suicide due to guilt)

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Zoop » Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:34 am

About the tanging, I think that's just an effect of the L Barrier. The reason why most people need to wear hazmat suits (or even plugsuits, as in the beginning of thrice). Only "cursed" people can walk in it freely, and even then there seems to be a limit which Shinji almost reached (the red bleeping on his suit) when Kenken arrived. The field that rejects original sin. Shinji is still a "mock-lilin" as Asuka called him, apparantly not entirely the same condition as the other pilots, so it seems.

Mari mentioned how the density was a bit high in Fuyu's cockpit, and Fuyu confirms with that he's been taking some risks.

My guess is, if the density gets too high, its basically an anti-at field, and thus you get tanged.
And all that because Fuyu refused to wear a plugsuit (can you imagine that tho, lol!).
In any case i really doubt that Fuyu would be a clone too (if he is then this cloning business is getting a bit stale, imo).

Rei apparantly needs regular tuneups to be able to deal with the density, despite being able to walk around in high density areas, her composition will just fail over time and the slightest bit of density can cause the same.
Something along those lines, at least.

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Postby Archer » Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:31 am

Clearly NERV never made the breakthrough invention of… adult-sized plugsuits.

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Postby sithsauron » Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:36 pm

Yui had a plug suit during the contact experiment, Fuyu probably didn't want Mari to say "who's the cute old the guy rockin' the skintight latex?"

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby DantesInferno » Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:09 am

View Original PostZoop wrote:About the tanging, I think that's just an effect of the L Barrier. The reason why most people need to wear hazmat suits (or even plugsuits, as in the beginning of thrice). Only "cursed" people can walk in it freely, and even then there seems to be a limit which Shinji almost reached (the red bleeping on his suit) when Kenken arrived. The field that rejects original sin. Shinji is still a "mock-lilin" as Asuka called him, apparantly not entirely the same condition as the other pilots, so it seems.

Mari mentioned how the density was a bit high in Fuyu's cockpit, and Fuyu confirms with that he's been taking some risks.

My guess is, if the density gets too high, its basically an anti-at field, and thus you get tanged.
And all that because Fuyu refused to wear a plugsuit (can you imagine that tho, lol!).
In any case i really doubt that Fuyu would be a clone too (if he is then this cloning business is getting a bit stale, imo).

Rei apparantly needs regular tuneups to be able to deal with the density, despite being able to walk around in high density areas, her composition will just fail over time and the slightest bit of density can cause the same.
Something along those lines, at least.


Yeah, that's pretty much it. We know from Takao's dialog that the lilim can't enter the L-barrier without "receiving the godspell" (i.e., being "purified"). It basically "tangs" all FoK-based beings, and the "cursed" pilots somehow get a pass (even though they pretty much have their brains intact, if you ask me...). I think it turns inert matter into core, and living beings into LCL, which is basically the "liquid" version of core (remember that "Second Impact purified the seas").

Seele too are refered to as FoK-based lifeforms, even though the momoliths show the "core" animated pattern, which is pretty much equivalent with being free of the original sin (that's why the angels' souls are hosted in cores, I guess. Matter worthy of an untainted soul).

I'm not 100% sure the hazmat suit gives any protection (or the plugsuits, for that matter), even though Kensuke wears one obviously. (It could also be about the CO2 densitiy that Ritsuko et al mention in Paris previous to reactivating the pillar (she opens her helmet afterwards to breathe)... Who knows.

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby Zoop » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:08 am

I like your take on this.
But going by this then LCL is basically liquid people, and the pilots are sitting in it to pilot, eerie.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:06 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:I'm not 100% sure the hazmat suit gives any protection (or the plugsuits, for that matter), even though Kensuke wears one obviously. (It could also be about the CO2 densitiy that Ritsuko et al mention in Paris previous to reactivating the pillar (she opens her helmet afterwards to breathe)... Who knows.

Ritsuko mentions the L Barrier density in Paris, not the CO2, also after 14 years around the stuff I think that they learned exactly what kind of protection they need against the red earth.
Besides Shinji's plugsuit mentions that its battery is very low and and that he's danger because of it just before Kensuke come picking them up, which for me clearly means that yes, all this protection is necessary (the pilots being able to get away with less protection thanks to being "pseudo-Lilin")
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: Mari is not afflicted with the “Curse of Eva”

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Postby DantesInferno » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:07 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Ritsuko mentions the L Barrier density in Paris, not the CO2, also after 14 years around the stuff I think that they learned exactly what kind of protection they need against the red earth.
Besides Shinji's plugsuit mentions that its battery is very low and and that he's danger because of it just before Kensuke come picking them up, which for me clearly means that yes, all this protection is necessary (the pilots being able to get away with less protection thanks to being "pseudo-Lilin")


Maybe it was Maya, or someone else on the com... but there is definitely a mention about the air quality... perhaps it was O2 levels, not CO2 (need to go back and check).

View Original PostZoop wrote:I like your take on this.
But going by this then LCL is basically liquid people, and the pilots are sitting in it to pilot, eerie.


It's the primordial soup from which living beings are made, I guess (not very different from what it was in NGE; the addition seems to be that the angels too are made of it).

The seas must have turned red when all the sea life turned into LCL. So technically it would be a mix of pure LCL and sea water :D


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