Blockio wrote:Yeah, but that scene can't be properly interpreted without considering the context from Shin. Even ignoring the scene of him getting the choker again, the fact remains that Asuka and Mari were also wearing one, so it is not targeted against him as much as Eva pilots in general

It's true that the DSS Choker target Eva pilots in general. This was a standard measure for Eva pilots, since Asuka and Mari use it. Interestingly, the DSS Choker was created for Kaworu to use.

However, in 3.0, the DSS Choker was forced on Shinji even although they don't plan to let him pilot the Eva. That situation was especifically targeted against Shinji. So, Ritsuko saying the DSS Choker is a punishment and a symbol of mistrust toward Shinji is right.

In 3.0+1.0, Shinji accepts the DSS Choker to pilot the Eva by his own will. It's a standard measure in that case.


PS: In 3.0+1.0, when Ritsuko questioned Misato about not putting the DSS Choker in Shinji again (when he returns to the Wunder), Misato answered this: Without the willful intent to make up for one's sins, atonement is meaningless.

Apologies for responding to so many posts, but I feel they all cohere into a broader point (and I've been in the middle of moving apartments! )

nerv bae wrote:In my opinion, religious traditions and legal traditions inform ordinary morality, even outside of an explicit religious or legal context. For example, people generally agree that killing others is wrong, without always connecting that ordinary moral opinion to religious and legal prohibitions on murder.

That's an interesting point about real life, but it gets hard to apply to Eva for a few reasons, not least of which is that there are Gods known to exist by a few characters and the men who swear fealty to them have concocted (or influenced) all world government and thus, likely, all legal, moral and ethical aspects of said world, and our hero characters wish to reject this basis. Yet at the same time, the exact extent (in either direction) is hard to say. There's also the fact that Wille is composed mainly of scientists, some of which are aware of things like Eva Imaginary and Minus Space and the like; the morality at play from Ritsuko seems far more empirical than anything based on tradition or theology.

Having just come off a Thrice rewatch, I found it interesting that there are two moments in the village part of the film where characters pray, one of which is at Kensuke's father's grave. This is the only instance of practiced religion I can think of, but prayer in itself can be quite secular and only vaguely religious.

nerv bae wrote:I want to better understand the rest of your post -- regarding "I just can't follow from A to B," I think B for you are Shinji's actions at the end of 2.22. But for you, what's A? What is your starting point such that you can't follow to Shinji's actions at the end of 2.22? Is it everything that came before, or something more specific?

I suppose it's everything--A would be his initial extreme hesitation to pilot Eva, B would be him piloting Eva beyond its limits to extremely detrimental consequences. It's not that I think the films lack a dotted arrow from A to B, in fact the films are overt about the way they lay the dots down, it's that I don't think those moments pull their weight, the weight being me. Kaji's talks with Shinji and Mari's just before he mans Unit 01 are supposed to be the change of heart and epiphany moments, cards set down by guiding hands. But they're expedient and they're stand-ins for actual growth and development; I'm being told what gears are turning in Shinji's head, but I can't quite believe those gears actually exist and are actually turning. I suppose this is subjective, but I feel when Kaji and Mari have their spiels that they're really talking to, or perhaps more like at the audience, and trying to convince the audience of the character development in place of the actual development occuring organically; I would prefer if it felt, as it did for me in Eva of old, that Shinji was the one being convinced by the situations. In NTE we get exposition with nary a silent, gathering moment for characters; instead we get lectures interspersed with action sequences. I can imagine what gears must be turning for characters when you have Eva's giant smiling bandaged face providing a looming atmospheric. And I can understand that Kaji and Mari's talks are supposed to change Shinji's mind on a dime, but I can't understand how. Similarly, I can understand how Rei's "I wanted to grow rice" is tragic, and I understand that Anno is positioning her in front of Shinji and the audience for emotional effect, but I don't get why Rei (as a person in a situation) would do so.

nerv bae wrote:I propose that specific behavior is Gendo manipulating Shinji and Rei closer together in 1.11 and 2.22 to promote the awakening of Unit 01. And the Axx°N N. exception can't apply unless WILLE knows Gendo did that!

Honestly, I think the biggest component (at least for Wille) here isn't the manipulation that they may not know about, it's that Gendo is a major figure behind Unit 01's construction. Whatever Shinji did in this transcendent weapon, Gendo is the one who orchestrated it and hid and schemed who knows what into its purposes. Anything it does or doesn't do can be attributed to him or cast extreme skepticism on him and, too, the general fact of his scheming and secrecy. I'm not suggesting that anything and everything should be absolved under that umbrella, but it should at the least present Wille with ample room to question where the border exists between Gendo's machinations and even their own actions. But these characters don't really operate under the notion that everything they know might be put into question by the fact of world schemers; they're extremely rigid and binary in how they handle situations. To me, the setting acts as one thing (or should be one thing, given the presented premise) but the characters act otherwise or at least somewhat incongruously, mainly in regards to the Shinji question. Characters react with a "Gendo wanted Asuka to do X all along!" for the sake of shock value and to explain in the moment to the audience, but they don't seem to account for much in their planning or at least the camera doesn't care to show us; I understand this could ruin certain things such as the warships showing up by surprise, but specific expository statements ahead of time aren't what I feel is missing, it's more a general sense of possibility or alternate explanation.

nerv bae wrote:Is this adequate to establish that everyone in Wille shouldn't have blamed Shinji for N3I, because they all knew (via Kaji) about Gendo's manipulation?

Unfortunately I think we have to chalk this up as impossible to determine, given the time-skip and everything it obscures. As a later post of yours brings up, there are other areas (perhaps some unexplored so far) that might indicate what Wille knows, but that's all it can amount to with the material, indications.

For instance:

Blockio wrote:An interesting thing about that is that there are a couple of things kind of implying that in between N3I and 3I proper, there was a fair amount of political turmoil withinNerv; see Commander Nagisa, whatever Kaji was doing and a few other little things kinda hinting at a much larger bigger picture during the timeskip than generally assumed

This is an extremely good point and should cause some dissonance for anyone making assumptions here (including me) about what was or wasn't brought into daylight as a result of whatever might have happened internally or over the years afterward.

For that matter:

Archer wrote:If there’s any relationship between her and Gendo, it’s only barely implied, certainly not a major plot point like it is in NGE.

There's a high degree of ambiguity, also, to instances such as Ritsuko's EoE-like moment with Gendo; is it shorthand for "yes, things happened between them similar to the old canon"? Or is it merely an homage? The time-skip in tandem with prior canon nods presents an interpretive dilemma.

Gendo's Glasses wrote:Just because someone puts a gun in your hands (Gendo), and just because your superior officer is cheering you on (Misato), you're still responsible -- even if not in a legal or lawful sense -- if you pull the trigger, perhaps especially so if you do it while screaming you don't care what'll happen to anyone else in the process.

But Gendo didn't just put a gun in Shinji's hand, he manufactured the gun, perhaps--who can reasonably say, given his scheming and secrecy--clandestinely equipped with some kind of MK Ultra beam. What's more, an Eva is not at all like a gun; a gun is a simple weapon and everyone knows what it does. You can't say anyone, not even the engineers, fully understands Eva. Maybe if the gun was eldritch.

There's a high degree of ambiguity, also, to instances such as Ritsuko's EoE-like moment with Gendo; is it shorthand for "yes, things happened between them similar to the old canon"? Or is it merely an homage? The time-skip in tandem with prior canon nods presents an interpretive dilemma.

Funny you should bring that up. I thought it was just cheap fanservice, precisely because there WAS no development to it at all - you’re only supposed to feel something because it’s a reference to something that happened in NGE. Whether or not you think they had some relationship at some point doesn’t actually matter, because at the end of the day it has no bearing on the story - if it was something important, it would’ve been addressed directly instead of being vaguely implied through a single off-hand reference.

Axx°N N. wrote:

nerv bae#935070 wrote:I want to better understand the rest of your post -- regarding "I just can't follow from A to B," I think B for you are Shinji's actions at the end of 2.22. But for you, what's A? What is your starting point such that you can't follow to Shinji's actions at the end of 2.22? Is it everything that came before, or something more specific?

I suppose it's everything--A would be his initial extreme hesitation to pilot Eva, B would be him piloting Eva beyond its limits to extremely detrimental consequences. It's not that I think the films lack a dotted arrow from A to B, in fact the films are overt about the way they lay the dots down, it's that I don't think those moments pull their weight, the weight being me. Kaji's talks with Shinji and Mari's just before he mans Unit 01 are supposed to be the change of heart and epiphany moments, cards set down by guiding hands. But they're expedient and they're stand-ins for actual growth and development; I'm being told what gears are turning in Shinji's head, but I can't quite believe those gears actually exist and are actually turning. I suppose this is subjective, but I feel when Kaji and Mari have their spiels that they're really talking to, or perhaps more like at the audience, and trying to convince the audience of the character development in place of the actual development occuring organically; I would prefer if it felt, as it did for me in Eva of old, that Shinji was the one being convinced by the situations. In NTE we get exposition with nary a silent, gathering moment for characters; instead we get lectures interspersed with action sequences. I can imagine what gears must be turning for characters when you have Eva's giant smiling bandaged face providing a looming atmospheric. And I can understand that Kaji and Mari's talks are supposed to change Shinji's mind on a dime, but I can't understand how. ...

Due to the compressed run length we don't get silent, gathering moments for characters, as you point out. But we get seconds -- it's all there, it just goes by faster and a lot of it is visual:


The language of your post relates to the audible: you're "being told", Kaji and Mari are having "spiels" and "talking", we get "exposition" without silence, "we get lectures". Are you discounting some of the visual storytelling in favor of the audible script, and finding fault based on that discounting? The visuals are doing a lot of the work to make up for the compressed script, in my opinion.

Archer wrote:

There's a high degree of ambiguity, also, to instances such as Ritsuko's EoE-like moment with Gendo; is it shorthand for "yes, things happened between them similar to the old canon"? Or is it merely an homage? The time-skip in tandem with prior canon nods presents an interpretive dilemma.

Funny you should bring that up. I thought it was just cheap fanservice, precisely because there WAS no development to it at all - you’re only supposed to feel something because it’s a reference to something that happened in NGE. Whether or not you think they had some relationship at some point doesn’t actually matter, because at the end of the day it has no bearing on the story - if it was something important, it would’ve been addressed directly instead of being vaguely implied through a single off-hand reference.

Gah, my brain is failing at the moment. Where in the rebuilds does Ritsuko have an EoE-like moment with Gendo? When she domes him on the Wunder hull? I didn't understand their dialogue there as a reference to a prior intimate relationship; do other people interpret it that way?

Literally just the fact that she shoots him, as a callback/reversal to Gendo killing her in EoE. I think the person I replied to was suggesting that the very existence of that reference, which only makes sense metatextually, implies that other stuff from NGE also happened between them (which I disagree with).

Archer wrote:Literally just the fact that she shoots him, as a callback/reversal to Gendo killing her in EoE. I think the person I replied to was suggesting that the very existence of that reference, which only makes sense metatextually, implies that other stuff from NGE also happened between them (which I disagree with).

Yeah, I thought as much in that scene... It's funny 'cuz EoE, not because we get a reasonable amount of material to suspect something (anything) else is at play here.

It's fairly clear from her reaction that something happened that we didn't see, but yeah, I agree that it's unlikely that they had a relationship. I'd wager it was more along the lines of shady backroom dealings between N3I and the uprising, the true extent of which only became apparent to Ritsuko in hindsight.
I can very much see her being misled by Gendo into furthering his plan, thinking that he might actually mean well, and then being very pissed at his general face when the realization sets in that he never planned on being a good person

nerv bae wrote:The language of your post relates to the audible: you're "being told", Kaji and Mari are having "spiels" and "talking", we get "exposition" without silence, "we get lectures". Are you discounting some of the visual storytelling in favor of the audible script, and finding fault based on that discounting? The visuals are doing a lot of the work to make up for the compressed script, in my opinion.

It's not that I dismiss the fact the moments you point out exist, I just think they go too swift to operate on their own as meaningful visuals. The speed is the main thing for me, the ability I myself have to gather as I watch. I know this is maybe expecting more from NTE than it itself sets out to accomplish, but given that the setting is in fact grim and full of death, I really long for something like the last shot of EoE where someone is merely brooding over the horror. At uncomfortable length. The moments you present don't themselves convey a sense of awe or desolation to me, they're more like expedient rhetorical tools that relate directly back to the exposition. What they seem aimed to communicate is "Kaji/Mari was right, Shinji is now having a change of heart because what he's seeing right now is proof." It's all extremely expedient and demonstrative; the runtime is such that I can't imagine anything is happening in Shinji's head other than recapitulations of the exposition. It's like an absence of grace notes when what I want to be hearing is something essential but not foundational. When a narrative absorbs me, it's because the hands of the author turn invisible and I forget I'm merely watching a scripted plot. But that rarely happens for me in NTE, especially in 2.0 and 3.0+1.0, where I feel hyper-aware that Anno & co. are placing elements in front of me to try to convince me of character motivations, but all I'm seeing is the elements with big, bold designations on them, like props with labels still on, or wind-up toys. This might be down to pacing preferences or one's attitude toward prevalence of exposition, but I think it's an important reason why some would find the way NTE presents the logic behind the Shinji blame game to be insufficient. The speed seems to me a seriously, if misleadingly important element. If we're not watching characters that feel believable in how they arrive at conclusions, how long certain things take to affect them or prompt them, the suspension of belief can flatline.

EGF community project: force Axx°N N. to watch NTE at 67% regular playback speed.

Sorry if this has already been discussed (I'm too lazy to go through the whole thread) but, why do Sakura and Midori lose their shit so much when Shinji says he will pilot the Eva again?

I mean, at that point Gendo has successfully started (his own version of) fourth impact, and as soon as the Wunder's reserve power runs out and their hex pillars/anti L-field tech stops working, they all too will turn into LCL / purple infinities, "commoditized" much like the rest of humanity...

What else could happen on top of that? How much worse can things become, however Shinji "screws up" his piloting the Eva? Or maybe at this point they have become religious/irrational on that issue, thought is suspended, and simply "Shinji must not plot Eva, no matter what"?

DantesInferno wrote:Sorry if this has already been discussed (I'm too lazy to go through the whole thread) but, why do Sakura and Midori lose their shit so much when Shinji says he will pilot the Eva again?

SEELE-01 had an interesting take on that:

SEELE-01 wrote:I think a lot of nuance is lost if the socio-cultural differences between Japanese and Western societies.

Shinji is not blamed for saving them, but for triggering N3I in an attempt to save Rei, the latter not because it was necessary, but because HE wanted it for himself.
Being in an utilitarian/conformist society, wanting something above and beyond what you "deserve" is seen as being awfully selfish.
Pink-hair girl and Sakura's reactions are understandable only in that framework, where they have to play a very narrow role in their perfectly functioning microcosm of survivors to A) be of use* and B) not do as Shinji did.
Shinji's actions are textbook example of what they ought not do, and now their commander is letting him do what caused all of this? This probably puts them in a strong cognitive dissonance...
Nevertheless, the presentation, execution and resolution of that whole affair is laughable at best, cringeworthy at worst.


*in Spanish we have to ways of saying this: ser de ayuda="be of use" in a helping way, supportive for the social group. We also have ser de utilidad=be of use, but with a connotation of being useful as a machine or in an unpaid intern way. You are of use as a part of something, not as yourself.
I mean Sakura and Pink-haired girl being of use in the second variation.

I'll need someone to recheck lines but I'm pretty sure those two characters are the few on the crew whose parents died directly because of N3I.

You are right.
Midori mentions her family getting killed when Shinji enters the Wunder in the last movie.
Sakura mentions the same thing during the gun standoff.

Oh yeah forgot I posted this. I think you are right and thanks for the answers. I don't have much to add.

After thinking about it, and with the little information we got about what transpired between 2.0 and 3.0, here's my interpretation on what could had happened in respect to Shinji's apparent guilt:
We know that the world didn't immediately crumbled after 2.0, that outside of Tokyo-3 things carried on as usual and that NERV continued to function for a time, as seen by the fact that in 3.0, Mark.06 was fused to the 12th Angel, and the brief flashbacks in Thrice of the Actual Third Impact where Misato was healed and already pregnant, and the one of Kaworu and Kaji as Commander and Vice-Commander of NERV.

Assuming that the event in the NTP at the end of 2.0 still happened, the personal of NERV directly present at N3I (meaning Misato and her team) were taken in confinement by the UN to interrogate them and Gendo and Fuyu had to flee to avoid SEELE's retaliation.

Since no one knows exactly how much Shinji was aware of what's happening or how much his phrase of "I don't care about the world" was literal or not, and that it's impossible to get him out (either they really don't have any means or don't want to try because it's more convenient) it's possible that the report concluded that everything was Shinji's fault.

And thus, the rest of the world, including the survivors of N3I, being informed that Shinji willingly decided to risk the world for his own interests and that all the blame should fall on his shoulders (as an added bonus, that will indirectly tarnish Gendo's image and might had been the official reason used for his removal from NERV leadership), leading to Midori and Sakura's resentment toward him.

Misato either didn't talked to the UN investigation team about how she cheered on him to save herself, or maybe Kaji told her to not say anything because she'll need to stay in the game for later, or maybe she talked about it, but it was dismissed as non-relevant.

People more in the known like Kaji (and maybe Mari) know that the situation isn't as clearcut, that Gendo wanted Unit 01 to awake and planned and manipulated everything, including his son, for it to happen, up to implanting in Rei pre-programmed feelings of affection to speed up the growing of their bond and was even potentially ready to use brainwashing if Shinji strayed too far from the plans. But Kaji probably had to keep all this to himself to protect his cover (maybe he managed to secretly inform Misato, but she too couldn't say anything about it)

Now comes the tricky part: Actual Third Impact happens, the world is destroyed. It's possible that the people that would form WILLE (outside of Kaji) didn't know all the details because they were too far away and Kaji didn't had time to explain all, so they guessed from what elements they could see: that the FoIs were at Unit 01's image, that Lilith's face morphed into Rei's, and on top of still not knowing exactly how much Shinji knew about what would happen when he triggered N3I, came to the conclusion that he must had a hand on it.
But this is contradicted by the WILLE crew in Thrice saying that N3I was an unintended consequence, and Asuka knew about the Ayanami type's pre-programming of affection toward Shinji, so they must had been brought up to speed on what happened at some point. Or maybe they first thought that he was co-responsible, but him reappearing in 3.0 without having any idea of what happened made them change their mind somewhere between 3.0 and Thrice. (meaning that Kaworu was technically wrong when he said that humanity held Shinji responsible for the end of the world). Meanwhile Misato kept her feelings of thinking of him responsible because she still feels partly to blame for having cheered on him 14 ago and because by that point she became a Gendo bis utterly unwilling to confront her feelings until they slam at her face at supersonic speed.

In the end, we're always back at the same conclusion: there's a critical piece of the story missing to be able to get a clear picture.

ElMariachi wrote:But this is contradicted by the WILLE crew in Thrice saying that N3I was an unintended consequence, and Asuka knew about the Ayanami type's pre-programming of affection toward Shinji, so they must had been brought up to speed on what happened at some point. Or maybe they first thought that he was co-responsible, but him reappearing in 3.0 without having any idea of what happened made them change their mind somewhere between 3.0 and Thrice. (meaning that Kaworu was technically wrong when he said that humanity held Shinji responsible for the end of the world). Meanwhile Misato kept her feelings of thinking of him responsible because she still feels partly to blame for having cheered on him 14 ago and because by that point she became a Gendo bis utterly unwilling to confront her feelings until they slam at her face at supersonic speed..

Honestly, I think humans always know N3I was unintended from Shinji. That's why no one is surprised or doubtful when Hyuga mentions it (that was not new information, just a reminder).

Humans don't really care that N3I was unintended by Shinji, they blame Shinji because he caused it. This situation is reflected by Midori and Sakura (and even Hikari's father seems to be tense in Shinji's presence).

Also, WILLE are the people who put more bombs on Asuka and Mari room after they helped to stop the Fourth Impact in 3.0. The attitude to blame Shinji for the N3I fits this behavior.

ElMariachi wrote:In the end, we're always back at the same conclusion: there's a critical piece of the story missing to be able to get a clear picture.

Yeah. We lack a lot of information. I think there must be some connection between N3I and Actual Third Impact that hasn't been revealed yet.

We have hints that SEELE's plan to start the (Actual) Third Impact were changed. For example: It seems SEELE originally planed to use the four Wunders for the Third Impact, but this didn't happen. Also, I don't think SEELE always intended to make Mark-06 an autonomous model.

So, please pardon me for going on a tangent though I think it's related to the question at end.
In Thrice, when they finally confront each other, we hear that Misato and others still refer to Gendo as "Commander Ikari" (and he returns the favour to her) -or maybe that's the subs ?-. Fuyutsuki also gets a lot of respect for his abilities by Mary and Misato. That's less surprising because that always was Fuyutsuki's spiel, the perfect co-worker / (assistant) boss. Anyhow, they all show an insane amount of courtesy for each other despite being in a decade long war for literally the whole of humanity : I know Japan loves itself some manners but it was a little jarring to me Gendo gets the polite treatment considering he's the architect of all that destruction.

Which brings me to another thing I found unsatisfying : I haven't seen Q in a while but post-3I NERV or NeoNERV is just Gendo and Fuyutsuki, right ? (Plus Kaworu and Shinji). We don't see anyone else running NeoNERV and I took it the implication was that most of their ships/eva production was automated - some sort of magic factory at that point. I found it a little bizarre they're mostly called euphimistically "NeoNERV" throughout when it's a literal Gendo one-man-show (I was unclear if SEELE still exists in corporeal or not form by that point, which makes all the talk of following their plans in Thrice hollow).
Opposite you have WILLE that runs settlements, logistics and an economic NGO still, despite pockets of survivors being few and far between -we know of-. I imagine the contrast is intentional between WILLE and a now inhumane self sustaining abomination that is NERV... But I wished this would have been more fleshed out.

You have several lines about how WILLE is really uneasy with Shinji & the pilots in general (chokers, Asuka notes more remote explosive were added to their quarters) which is also related to the "Shinji is responsible / pilots are dangerous" but that internal tension is never really explored either despite WILLE and Asuka / Mari both needing one another and pursuing the same goal.

I understand the dramatic dynamic of how and why you'd want Shinji to be the scapegoat and I can buy it for the most part... However I agree it didn't make much sense to me why he is apparently the only one shouldering the blame.

AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley wrote:Which brings me to another thing I found unsatisfying : I haven't seen Q in a while but post-3I NERV or NeoNERV is just Gendo and Fuyutsuki, right ? (Plus Kaworu and Shinji). We don't see anyone else running NeoNERV and I took it the implication was that most of their ships/eva production was automated - some sort of magic factory at that point. I found it a little bizarre they're mostly called euphimistically "NeoNERV" throughout when it's a literal Gendo one-man-show (I was unclear if SEELE still exists in corporeal or not form by that point, which makes all the talk of following their plans in Thrice hollow).

In 3.0, SEELE exists and have enough power that Gendo still needs to pretend to follow their plains (there are hints that SEELE can take control of the Marks). At the end of 3.0, SEELE was so sure their plan to evolve humanity (into a race with FOL but without FOK) with the Fourth Impact was unstoppable that SEELE allowed themselves to be killed by Gendo.

Gendo isn't following SEELE's plans in 3.0+1.0. Gendo seems to want to create a collective mind without division and separation. He needs to start the Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0, but he also needs to create the Additional Impact for his goal.

AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley wrote:I understand the dramatic dynamic of how and why you'd want Shinji to be the scapegoat and I can buy it for the most part... However I agree it didn't make much sense to me why he is apparently the only one shouldering the blame.

To be fair, WILLE doesn't only blame Shinji. They clearly blame Gendo and NERV too.

It's just Shinji is the only close enough to suffer their despise.

Thanks for the refresher on SEELE status in 3.0, the events there were a bit fuzzy, I blame studio Khara.
The subs I had for Thrice have Gendo and Fuyutsuki saying something to following SEELE's blueprint up until the ultimate stages, which was the part that questioned me though it of course could be said in a "we still had to follow that plan (even though they're dead)."

Also wondered what the two of them were doing all day for 14 years by themselves. Well, looking broody while watching screens as they ever do, I suppose.

Konja7 wrote:To be fair, WILLE doesn't only blame Shinji. They clearly blame Gendo and NERV too.

It's just Shinji is the only close enough to suffer their despise.

Yes, as I said it's more of a contrast level thing with how that anger is directed and in what proportion. Shinji being abused for it, by itself, makes sense as a dramatic chord.

I didn't mind the drastic timeskip but in hindsight... I think I would have liked to be shown/told a little more of what happened in between.

AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley wrote:The subs I had for Thrice have Gendo and Fuyutsuki saying something to following SEELE's blueprint up until the ultimate stages, which was the part that questioned me though it of course could be said in a "we still had to follow that plan (even though they're dead)."

The ultimate stage for SEELE was the Fourth Impact (which "purify" the souls).

Although Gendo has a different goal, he still needs the Fourth Impact before he could start his Additional Impact. Not to mention that he needs to use the Wunders that SEELE created.

So, I guess that was the meaning of Gendo and Fuyutsuki following SEELE's blueprint.