Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Archer » Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:27 am

I’d say 9-10 series certainly qualifies as “many”. Those series that he had a direct hand in did NOT by and large follow the same group of characters, which is what I mean by there being a precedent from the very beginning set by the creator himself that Gundam is this wide, expansive universe that’s bigger than just Char and Amuro. Z and ZZ weren’t that long after the original Mobile Suit Gundam. I’m saying it’s BECAUSE of this precedent that was set early on that made it easier for viewers to accept different takes on the franchise, because spin-offs and sequels of questionable quality have literally been a part of the franchise since its inception.

The release timelines are just not comparable in any way. If Anno had decided to do an Eva sequel/spinoff/AU featuring different characters, the right time for that would’ve been around the early-mid 2000’s. Instead of doing that, he decided to make the Rebuilds, which only further cemented the precedent that Evangelion is intrinsically tied to these characters.

Literally everything Anno has done related to Evangelion has followed this same cast of characters. There is simply no precedent for anything outside of that. Tomino on the other hand personally laid the groundwork for an expansive universe that others could build off of.

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:59 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Yeah, both of these are the right place. There is an Nadia thread already existing, you could put it in that, but since it's about a very specific aspect, a new thread works just as well.


@ Blockio thanks for have give me the answer to my questions.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:That's the thing tho, Tomino very much did not work on most Gundam shows. Off the top of my head, he did 79, Z, ZZ, CCA, F91, Victory, Turn A, G Reco and wrote the book on which the current HF movies are based.


Mmm what you have wrote makes me think about the possibility that one day Anno could even decide to test himself by creating a new anime mecha.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Not only has he not worked on other shows, he has gone on record a handful of times saying that Gundam shows done by other people are so unbearable to him he didn't even watch the majority of them all the way.


I wonder if Anno will express his opinion regarding the Evangelion's series. Obviously always assuming that they will actually be realized sooner or later.

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Registration2 » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:02 pm

There are lots of misconceptions about gundam in this thread lol.

The biggest difference between the gundam and evangelion is how limiting the scenario of Evangelion is. Sadly, most evangelion is tied to the characterizations and the possibilities of breaking it off are quite rare, which makes even sadder is that it wasn't always like that. In Evangelion infancy we had games with original characters and settings that broke off it like with Yamaguchi and Mana, but of course, it still happened in the 00's with the video games since they had more creative control (by they I mean game studios rather than gainax/khara).

After the takeover of khara over gainax old management, the list of games really dwindle and lesser original ideas and characters came out of it, Evangelion became a colossal partner with various mobile games, using the rebuild characters and evangelions to collaborate between games but not really expanding the series setting like it did with the 00's gaming era. We are in an era that is quite... stunned, the two more recent original characters are from EVA BF, I can't remember other new character originitated from it since 2010 more or less.

So we come back to Gundam.

Mobile Suit Gundam, 1979-1982. A complete story that ended perfectly.

Except it didn't. Due to the setting of Gundam, it allowed elements and new additions to be made, one example is with mobile suits, and here we have one creation to make even more mobile suits: Mobile Suit Variations, MSV, created in 1983, allowed new mobile suits to exist, but these mobile suits didn't appeared in the TV series, and had the pilots of it described as few lines of text, pilots like Johnny Ridden, Shin Matsunaga, Tenneth A. Jung, a few names that never appeared in the TV series or movies. Those are seeds.

Then time passed, and these seeds became main characters in their own stories, be it videogames, manga or novels, they have a mythical status in a fictional story that it drives people to know what happened and who they are, they want to know their story.

And this for me is where Evangelion fails. Eva didn't allowed their own seeds to grow and cultivate it, how many original characters that appeared in a piece of media returned later? I can think only of Mana Kirishima.

Another case of how Gundam changed the game with its setting is by twisting it own setting. You may know the anime Gundam Build Fighters and Gundam Build Divers, these anime focused on gunpla fighting each other that dominated the last decade. This as a concept is nothing new or created back in 2011, the origin of it dates to 1982 with the Plamo Kiyoshiro manga series. So before Tomino even thinking about Z, ZZ or CCA, there were elements of changing elements of Gundam early on. Another case of it is the SD Gundam that completely dominated the market in the 90's with series like Musha Gundam and Knight Gundam even being introduced in other markets as Taiwan and China and getting their love that allows TV animated series last year like SD Gundam World Heroes in 2021.

Evangelion barely built on their foundation in terms of setting, but did an exceptional job on the marketing of their characters and movies, using their visual identity to really make bank. The most important aspect of Evangelion is its own visual identity, it isn't the plot, characters or even the mecha. It is when you see the purple and green, you know it is the evangelion unit-01 colors, when you see the light blue and white, you know it is Rei, and even a more recent one, pink, yellow and white, and you sure know it is mari's colors.

Can we say that Evangelions allows it for more exploration? Yeah sure, but which kind? Using the characters as a way of producing more content has been made already with the multiple spinoffs. But its is rather stiff, and mainly in comedy based series, using their archetypes to tell jokes and using easy identification to facilitate it.

Now lets talk about the overall setting (organizations, military, evangelions, angels and all that), there are very few series that dwelve in that aspect. I think the best example of how it could be successful is Evangelion ANIMA. Not only it build on what was already made, but introduced new characters and also built on the bullshit that was the whole christianity related names into actual plot elements, using it as a way of reusing the angels by the usage of the Ark with the Angel Carriers. It also expand the worldview to contain the whole world in it, You see other branchs of NERV trying to deal with the enemy and it could allow Evangelion x Evangelion content if you absolutely doesn't want to use angels.

But here is the catch: Evangelion ANIMA is built on the foundation of the TV series. It doesn't create new concepts, new enemies new evangelions and new characters out of the ether, it uses the already existing material to expand it. So even our best example of how it could be, still doesn't answer that.

Now for what I want: I want mecha focused stories. I don't care for Shinji, Rei, Asuka, they could be used as mentors or other type of characters, but I would want an original setting with new mecha focused challenges. Having Shinji crying around again would be quite sad and unimaginative, also let Yamashita go fucking crazy in the designs, stop changing his designs to be easier to animate, If the own evangelion designer can break the image of what is an evangelion, let other designers do the same. (this is a gigantic problem with gundam, in which the main gundam has to have the tricolor scheme and the overall same type of head design, which if you go and see the proposals for Z or ZZ gundam, the head had lots of different ideas for designs, but eventually they settled for MK-II and later the Zeta) I want creativity out of Evangelion, not the same beats already.

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Blockio » Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:01 pm

I maintain that there isn't any inherent reason that Eva can't be like Gundam, it's just that people are too cowardly to accept it; Eva is not eternally bound to its characters, and the pretense that it is/hyper-obsession with these characters is the biggest downfall of the larger franchise as well as the fanbase.

A little thought experiment I like to present to people: Take Pacific Rim. The first one, not any of the things that came after. Replace "Jaeger" with "Eva", "Kaiju" with "Angel", "the Breach" with "the Impact", and shift some of the technobabble. Change nothing else about the movie, neither plot nor aesthetic; and you would have a perfectly workable Eva AU that completely stands on its own feet, telling a story that is faithful to the themes of the original while not ripping them off. Eva doesn't even ned any of its characters or main aesthetic to be Eva, it just needs someone who knows that they're doing.
(Which is also why I consider Anima to be a terrible Eva spinoff, because it displays such an utter failure to understand and build on the things that made the original good; it is all aesthetic and flash, with no substance to back it up, but that's neither here nor there)

Now, I'm obviously not saying that Pacific Rim would be better as Eva instead of its own thing, I very much think it is more powerful as its own thing; however, for the context of making this point, it is just about the perfect example.
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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:16 pm

View Original PostRegistration2 wrote:Now for what I want: I want mecha focused stories. I don't care for Shinji, Rei, Asuka, they could be used as mentors or other type of characters, but I would want an original setting with new mecha focused challenges.


But for having Shinji, Rei and Asuka as mentor the series should a sequel and not something new. Honestly I would like a lot see a world where the humanity is forced to creating a lot of Evangelions and Shinji is consider like a true living legend by humanity and see like both a model from which take inspiration and someone that must be overcome by the new group of young Evangelion's pilot.

View Original PostRegistration2 wrote:let Yamashita go fucking crazy in the designs, stop changing his designs to be easier to animate, If the own evangelion designer can break the image of what is an evangelion, let other designers do the same. (this is a gigantic problem with gundam, in which the main gundam has to have the tricolor scheme and the overall same type of head design, which if you go and see the proposals for Z or ZZ gundam, the head had lots of different ideas for designs, but eventually they settled for MK-II and later the Zeta) I want creativity out of Evangelion, not the same beats already.


Yes I would like see what kind of mecha's design Yamashita could make if he will have total free creative power on the draws.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I maintain that there isn't any inherent reason that Eva can't be like Gundam, it's just that people are too cowardly to accept it; Eva is not eternally bound to its characters, and the pretense that it is/hyper-obsession with these characters is the biggest downfall of the larger franchise as well as the fanbase.


Agree with you about what you said here. Honestly also for me a work that bears the name of Evangelion without Shinji, Eva 01 and with a plot that not involves the Angels, the Instrumentality and the exploration of psychological problems would be really strange, but I don't think I would go crazy if I would see a different Evangelion from which we are used to.

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Archer » Fri May 06, 2022 10:29 am

I really just don’t see why it NEEDS to be a franchise that continually puts out more stories.

Like obviously from Khara’s perspective it’s a lucrative property, no shit they want to find ways to monetize it. But is it really what fans want?

It’s most certainly not what I want, at the very least. What I like about manga/anime over American media is precisely that the vast majority of the time it’s just a one-and-done story with maybe some silly (and often horny) spin-off content for the superfans. Even sequels are exceedingly rare, 99% of the time once a story’s done it’s done. I’m just afraid that anything new made under the Evangelion IP will simply be piggybacking off its popularity to draw more eyes, rather than because it actually has a story to tell that can only be served by setting it in the Eva universe. I’d greatly prefer if the Hollywood trend of shitting up beloved IP’s with needless sequels and garbage current-year reboots stayed in America. Sometimes, dead is better.

I think a story should only be set inside an existing IP if it has a legitimate reason for it - for example, expecting the viewer to have some basic understanding of the history and mechanics of the world such that you can avoid some of the basic exposition. If all you need to do is swap out some names, terminology and designs to make something “Eva”, then it has no business being “Eva” in the first place.

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Blockio » Sat May 07, 2022 2:34 pm

That is a very important point. Everything that I personally said in this thread is coming from an angle of if new things are made after all, they should be like that, not that we need them by all means
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Registration2 » Wed May 11, 2022 10:23 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:(Which is also why I consider Anima to be a terrible Eva spinoff, because it displays such an utter failure to understand and build on the things that made the original good; it is all aesthetic and flash, with no substance to back it up, but that's neither here nor there)

Now, I'm obviously not saying that Pacific Rim would be better as Eva instead of its own thing, I very much think it is more powerful as its own thing; however, for the context of making this point, it is just about the perfect example.


I really doesn't understand how you can claim that pacific rim could be an eva spinoff if you change the aesthethics of it to be more EVA like then you say that ANIMA is terrible because it fails to understand the understand the concept overall when he is one of the most important key people in this aspect and beyond even understanding the concept, goes beyond it, creating even more new concepts to add to the overall idea and strenghtning the visual aspect of it. And even more when he does in both ways: the scientific explanation of technologies (Allegorica system, how the entry plug works, how the blades function) and also the mysterious ways of other concepts like the Torwarts, Armaros, Ark and so on.

Here is the thing: the most important aspect of Evangelion is the visuals of it, the mecha designs, the character designs, the technology, the colors, the displays, all these visual information and aesthethics is the most Evangelion thing you can have. This is the soul of Evangelion and where it makes most of its money via pachinko, merchandising, collaborations and so on. The core is the visual aspect, the rest of it can be altered in many ways.

If you remove it all the visual aspects of it... I sure as hell know it won't be evangelion anymore, but I am not advocating for its removal, but pushing for more extension of it, be it reworkings or new ideas from these visual concepts.

FXArmaros98 wrote:But for having Shinji, Rei and Asuka as mentor the series should a sequel and not something new. Honestly I would like a lot see a world where the humanity is forced to creating a lot of Evangelions and Shinji is consider like a true living legend by humanity and see like both a model from which take inspiration and someone that must be overcome by the new group of young Evangelion's pilot.


It could be a sequel or some kind of stuff like ANIMA, like a series of events that we don't actually see, but see Shinji, Rei and Asuka as background elements in this "prequel series", or something like that. But this idea of idolizing the past characters, I don't like it very much, I prefer it to be something like Macross, where it shares a common setting and world, but it is very rare to see previous characters coming back in their positions as big heroes.

Just got this idea: how about a world where the evangelions themselves acquire a level of conscience and become enemies of humanity, and the humans must fight it in be it another type of eva, or even new types of mechanical beings altogether, changing the scales in a different way. Or even aliens or the ancient beings that gave life to earth. whatever idea for me must only guide away of Evas versus Evas, we had two series about doing that, a new type of enemy would be nice to see.

FXArmaros98 wrote:Yes I would like see what kind of mecha's design Yamashita could make if he will have total free creative power on the draws.


Yamashita's Sword Irga does something that I never saw before: a weapon that comes out the knees of the robot, to not even say about how the weapon works as a platform for the humans to walk in. And the head is a mechanical heli transplanted to it, such a cool idea. Man I want more Iconic Field.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rainfine359/ ... 6522406917

Archer wrote:I really just don’t see why it NEEDS to be a franchise that continually puts out more stories.


Its not just because of money, it is because of relevance.

This part: "What I like about manga/anime over American media is precisely that the vast majority of the time it’s just a one-and-done story with maybe some silly (and often horny) spin-off content for the superfans. "

feels to me like you don't really have an inch of how wrong you are. Lets take three examples: Kamen Rider, a manga by Shotaro Ishinomori back in 1971 and a sequel in 1987, 16 years later. Would this character Kamen Rider have the same relevance if it was only this 4 volume manga to even have a sequel sixteen years later? Or is the massive appeal and new series that it had between the years of those two series and beyond that, even after the death of its creator. If you say kamen rider to a man in his 50's, 40's, 30's, 20's and a child at 10's, all of them will have a different mental image, because they had different versions of the character in his mind, not just because the series was made to make money, but also because they had time to be relevant in their demographic.

Other example by Ishinomori: Cyborg 009, how many series and related story projects came out of it point of origin? Astro Boy/Atom by Tezuka? The same thing. All these series maintain relevant because there are stories being told with its characters, and it is something quite good, to think otherwise is to say that Heracles should never had any new adventure, adaptation, spinoff, new story since the ancient Greece, without realizing that is exactly how they managed to mantain relevant while others didn't.

And I have you only three examples of Japanese media that does that, I could go on and on about how many keep doing it with various series after the original finishes. It isn't something new or american, it is literally something that the whole world experiences in different series that are popular in their own countries around the world.

Archer wrote:I’m just afraid that anything new made under the Evangelion IP will simply be piggybacking off its popularity to draw more eyes, rather than because it actually has a story to tell that can only be served by setting it in the Eva universe. I’d greatly prefer if the Hollywood trend of shitting up beloved IP’s with needless sequels and garbage current-year reboots stayed in America. Sometimes, dead is better.


Dude, you literally lost this battle in the 90's with Evangelion, I am sorry to have to tell you now. Because what you are afraid of, not only happened in the beginning of Evangelion, the middle and it will probably happen in the future, so much that not long ago they even announcend a exposition of these years

https://twitter.com/eva_x_expo

Archer wrote:I think a story should only be set inside an existing IP if it has a legitimate reason for it - for example, expecting the viewer to have some basic understanding of the history and mechanics of the world such that you can avoid some of the basic exposition.


I am a TYPE-MOON fan, and you have no idea how wrong you are in this one. The most famous work on it nowadays is Fate/Grand Order, a work that utilizes characters from all Fate series from before, during and after, that when it launched, it had 10 years of characters to use in various levels. So to even know such characters, you had to play the game, games that were released 10 years ago on PS2. So did you expect it to flop? No, it didn't, it managed to be the most played out Fate game of all time, with lots of new players that never played or knew about these characters from games that were released before they even were born.

But the thing about FGO is that they always expand their work, be it with original characters, or even returning old ones, and the setting of the story and world is miles ahead of evangelion in worldbuilding, they are since the end of the 90's expading the setting more and more, so much that even veterans sometimes doesn't understand concepts. To say what you said is to not think about the bigger picture in the future, when these works will get exponencially bigger and bigger with more works being added to it.

And for you to have just a glimpse of it: The game has 341 PLAYABLE CHARACTERS to this day. I am not even talking about the NPC's, mechanics, story telling, mechanics from the older series, characters from not even Fate series.

And 5 new character just got announced today, so imagine how much this idea of "having the basic knowledge" sounds insane when you are working with gigantic media, the idea of basic knowledge in Fate would be the lenght of full series if someone had to explain.

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Archer » Thu May 12, 2022 7:37 am

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m absolutely aware why creators/IP owners would want to keep their universe alive. It’s just something I want no part in. Nothing turns me off more than long-running “pass the torch” series that will only end when the money runs dry, be it Marvel comics, Doctor Who, or the endless parade of Bond movies. I have literally ZERO interest in an ever-expanding “bigger picture”, I just want good stand-alone stories that have a beginning, a middle and an end.

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Blockio » Thu May 12, 2022 7:54 am

View Original PostRegistration2 wrote:
View Original PostBlockio#935305 wrote:(Which is also why I consider Anima to be a terrible Eva spinoff, because it displays such an utter failure to understand and build on the things that made the original good; it is all aesthetic and flash, with no substance to back it up, but that's neither here nor there)

Now, I'm obviously not saying that Pacific Rim would be better as Eva instead of its own thing, I very much think it is more powerful as its own thing; however, for the context of making this point, it is just about the perfect example.


I really doesn't understand how you can claim that pacific rim could be an eva spinoff if you change the aesthethics of it to be more EVA like then you say that ANIMA is terrible because it fails to understand the understand the concept overall when he is one of the most important key people in this aspect and beyond even understanding the concept, goes beyond it, creating even more new concepts to add to the overall idea and strenghtning the visual aspect of it. And even more when he does in both ways: the scientific explanation of technologies (Allegorica system, how the entry plug works, how the blades function) and also the mysterious ways of other concepts like the Torwarts, Armaros, Ark and so on.

Here is the thing: the most important aspect of Evangelion is the visuals of it, the mecha designs, the character designs, the technology, the colors, the displays, all these visual information and aesthethics is the most Evangelion thing you can have. This is the soul of Evangelion and where it makes most of its money via pachinko, merchandising, collaborations and so on. The core is the visual aspect, the rest of it can be altered in many ways.

If you remove it all the visual aspects of it... I sure as hell know it won't be evangelion anymore, but I am not advocating for its removal, but pushing for more extension of it, be it reworkings or new ideas from these visual concepts.

You completely missed my point. Pandering to aesthetics like that is not what makes Eva Eva; at best, it's shallow lipservice to its legacy. I say Pacific Rim could be an Eva spinoff because it understands and builds on the same narrative themes and strengths, not because if you replace a few cg models they look similar. And that is precisely the reason why I say Anima is bad, because it completely lacks that understanding, and only throws more of the same aesthetic at it, pretending that that is enough to make it a worthy successor. Given the way you like to muse about Tomino's work, I had thought that you of all people would be able to look beyond visual fluff in determining what elements are actually the core elements of a franchise, but I suppose I was mistaken in that assessment.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Registration2 » Mon May 16, 2022 6:56 am

>Pacific Rim could be an Eva spinoff because it understands and builds on the same narrative themes and strengths

Comon mate, really? I like Pacific Rim to even explore the expanded universe, and talking this is really silly, do you think that humanity joining together against a superior enemy from elsewhere is a strenght and fits the narrative themes that Evangelion does? It is basic storytelling, from series that comes from the 70's and even earlier if you count Mitsuru Yokoyama manga works. And even then evangelion never plays it safe like that, by using secret organizations that would sabotage each other in its own favor.

you can't say that with a straight face, even more because one of the works that both are inspired by is Mazinger Z, that we could pick various moments (a recent one in Infinity movie for example how the photonic energy is shared amongst the whole world). It is something so basic and silly that trying to tie to evangelion when it is just normal writing it is just silly.

"Given the way you like to muse about Tomino's work, I had thought that you of all people would be able to look beyond visual fluff in determining what elements are actually the core elements of a franchise, but I suppose I was mistaken in that assessment."

And Gundam is the biggest example for why I am talking about this.

Gundam grew beyond Tomino's own scope. The element that unifies all those kinds of Gundam stories isn't something that was even atributed to Tomino himself, but Kunio's Okawara mechanical design. And there is no fucking way you can't refute this. The design of RX-78-2 Gundam and its elements are so strong that even today, 40 years later, you are going to see it being used. Not for lack of breaking it off from Zeta and ZZ days, see the proposed designs from back then and you are going to see artists trying to change what was Gundam back then, but they decided to go with the most relatable and kept going for 40 years.

So you have these visual elements that surpass what Tomino had in its work to be something that it was never intended to be. Or what do you think ties SD gundam Saddrac knight saga have to do with Mobile Suit Gundam (0079). Or what does Tomino have in common with the plot of Gundam Build Divers Re:Rise? Or comedy series based around it like Gundam-san which take the same characters and put it in comedy situations?

And not even using Gundam, lets use another Mecha series for example: Macross. The unifying elements aren't the Micrones, the Zentraedi, the Spacy. It is Music, love triangles and mecha/transforming planes, so you can use these elements and you are going to have a macross series, simple.

And Evangelion is the same way, Do I wish it was different and Eva had more Meat to tackle? Sure, but they didn't do the legwork that Gundam did for example for this to happen. So, if I want to read a story about a Gundam fighting samurai-like mecha and to be identifiable with Gundam it is because the visual aspect of it overtooks everything else: the character designs, the music, the anti-war themes, the war setting and so on.

Gundam is bigger than Tomino. Anno wants Evangelion to be bigger than him and khara, but I dunno if it is too late for that.

Neon Genesis Evangelion and Rebuild of Evangelion are a mecha anime series. I don't understand how people on this forum have a problem with it, with the idea that one of the biggest aspects of any mecha anime are the visuals, how the fights go, the weapons, the strategies, and in this aspect, Evangelion does a really good job at it, this is something that is really good. and if we go back to the early days of Evangelion, one of the biggest sponsors of Evangelion wasn't a toy brand, it was Sega/King Records, a music and video-game brand that took the risk in financing the project, allowing the designs to not be so toy easily made.

Would evangelion be the same if we changed all the mecha designs? Would it be as good as it is? Would it still be good if it was still named Alcion? We just can't know, but I am fucking sure that it helped a lot in the success it got.

And going back to the Tomino gundam argument: Tomino did write novels of MSG, Zeta, F91, Hathaway's Flash, Victory Gundam. Tomino at his fullest here. Do you think any of these novels are more popular than the same anime series? That he got the same attention and praise because of that? Would anno in his place receive the same praise if he went with the same strategy?

animation is a team work, every people involved has its strenghts and weakness, and the final product is the result of all these people involved, Sadamoto's designs are still awesome even outside Evangelion, Yamashita designs are still fucking inventive outside Evangelion, Anno's writing too. So by simplifying it a lot: If I say that 2/3s (Chara and mecha design) carried Evangelion so much, and still does to this day, much more than any other element. So I say that Evangelion's visuals are the most important aspect of the work.

And I could ask the CEO of Groundworks to tell me what fuels his company and khara: The license fee of the new Evangelion x battlegrounds mobile or the discussion if Quantum Rei exists or not and the implications of it. What do you think he is going to answer? We already have the answer, only a fool would say otherwise.

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Blockio » Mon May 16, 2022 6:37 pm

View Original PostRegistration2 wrote:>Pacific Rim could be an Eva spinoff because it understands and builds on the same narrative themes and strengths

Comon mate, really? I like Pacific Rim to even explore the expanded universe, and talking this is really silly, do you think that humanity joining together against a superior enemy from elsewhere is a strenght and fits the narrative themes that Evangelion does? It is basic storytelling, from series that comes from the 70's and even earlier if you count Mitsuru Yokoyama manga works. And even then evangelion never plays it safe like that, by using secret organizations that would sabotage each other in its own favor.

You're kinda missing the forest for the trees here, or perhaps doing the reverse and missing the trees for the forest, not quite sure which one. Sure, the brand of giant worldspanning organization is different between the two, but that's hardly the focus of the narrative: One of the most important core themes of both works, one that colors the entire arc of all main characters in either is the difficulties and successes of dealing with trauma and connecting with people, in the most literal way in PR's case with the direct neural link.

And yes, of course the visuals and sound design matter, and are absolutely the thing that establishes and reinforces brand recognizability: But it's not the essence of the stories told within a brand. To roll with the Gundam example, take a look at Build Fighters and Build Fighters Try. On a purely aesthetic level, following your argumentation, they stand on equal grounds as a work about model kit wargames.
However, one of them understands the fascination of model kits, what makes them fun, what drives the people making them to do so, and how that fascination manifests itself both while building, as well as in other aspects. This is what makes the show appealing, its characters fun and stakes believable: There is a real sense of urgency and achievement to it all because of how visibly invested the characters are in what they do, without needing to resort to Yugioh-levels of narrative gymnastics in hinging the fate of the world on a video game.
The other, Try, fails to recognize any of these. It chooses the path of visual fluff and brand recognition over that of engaging with the underlying essence of what made the first enjoyable, taking the route of the empirically quantifyable elements rather than the by its very nature more subjective aspect of writing. And the result is, to put it bluntly, a subpar product. It's a generic plot with only callbacks to earlier, for the most part vastly superior works, holding it up. While it certainly did benefit from being part of the franchise, Fighters can still stand on its own feet as an exploration of fan culture and what makes a franchise enjoyable to people really into it. Try doesn't have that exploration and lives only off of the brand name, without which it would remain as only a generic shounen tournament show, barely watched by anyone and all but forgotten about in very little time.

This is the core fault of your argument, misidentifying brand recognition for narrative themes. I'm of course not arguing that it's irrelevant to a show's success, simply that when writing a story, especially one that has footsteps to fill as big as Eva's, one needs to focus on the latter if the new work is to go down as anything but a cheap attampt to cash in on an existing success. I haven't seen it, but from what people tell me, the Eureka Seven franchise appears to be an apt case study in what happens if priorities are the other way around.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
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The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Registration2 » Tue May 17, 2022 4:18 am

I did watch BF and Try not long ago back to back so it is quite fresh on my mind. And let me tell you what you are missing about both series.

> they stand on equal grounds as a work about model kit wargames.

No, Try isn't on equal grounds to fighters because it tackles more elements related to the hobby than fighters, it goes beyond what fighters did with mostly combat + building + magic particles. It shows an element of the hobby in the characters of Minato and Yuuma: Building models just for the aesthetic of it rather than the idea of using it to combat, a particular element of the hobby that isn't much explored by previous series.

>without needing to resort to Yugioh-levels of narrative gymnastics in hinging the fate of the world
You can't say that with a straight face when the finale is literally lets save the "area" because models are causing damage, even if the level isn't "world danger", even this aspect brings the whole series down since it focus on the magic particles too much, even depriving the characters of the actual challenge in the fights with a villain using magic particles to intefere with the results.

>The other, Try, fails to recognize any of these. It chooses the path of visual fluff and brand recognition over that of engaging with the underlying essence of what made the first enjoyable, taking the route of the empirically quantifyable elements rather than the by its very nature more subjective aspect of writing.

You are joking, right? Lets use the PROTAGONIST of the series to prove how this is wrong. Sekai initially uses the gunpla fighting as a way of "substituting" his love for the martial arts since his new school wasn't having it. He is someone who is initially combat driven, in the same way that Reiji was in BF, but in the course of the series slowly changes into someone who not only still loves the combat aspect of it, but also learns aspects of the hobby to keep it up with the peers on his team (Someone who took building very seriously, and someone who likes gunpla battling). Sekai by these experiences eventually makes his own gunpla, something that wasn't feasible in the beginning of the series (and even contrast more with the Technical school lad, who decides to hire someone to build his gunpla instead of building himself).

>It's a generic plot with only callbacks to earlier, for the most part vastly superior works, holding it up.
Well, I love fan service, but lets be real, Both series did this, the difference is that the BF one was level surface anime only could recgonize, and the Try at least had fan service that went a little deeper into the hobby (Gundam Amazing Red Warrior which was originated from the Plamo Kiyoshiro manga, and even Superior Dragon from SD Gundam).

And even if you ignore all these aspect I said before, Try is still better than BF on a conceptual level: The designs in Try are better, the fights are better, and the overall plot is better (Or are you going to say that Sei and Reiji went from no ones to figthing the world championship? Try had the regionals and the scaling of adversaries, and even further ones with showing how the potential of overseas adversaries (the crossbone kid from BF), and with the advent of SHOWING THE FUCKING FIGHTS! I remember very well that any fight that wasn't Reiji or Sei and if I remember correctly one by Meijin and Fellini wasn't shows. How many times we saw aila "fight" with gunplas already being destroyed? And of course: the magic particles bullshit that was bogging BF so much is almost absent in try, (even the assimilation isn't very intrusive even if you don't like it, and it is almost realistic just by seeing pro gamers in tournments)

The execution of Try is superior to Fighters. Why? Because BF was almost like a prototype of what they could do. Both series are tournments types of story (with BF being bogged down by fucking particles and interferences), Try plays it straight with more remarkable results in its execution.

Even in the mechanical designs( that in BF case are quite simple and boring), and the fights I can see the superiority of it (The best fight in fighter was against Renato Team in ep 19), go to the official website and try to remember the scenes these gunpla were in it:
http://gundam-bf.net/2013/mechanics/
http://gundam-bf.net/try/mechanics/

For me BF is vastily inferior, and sloppy, even with a PROTAGONIST gunpla like MK-II, do you remember which was the context of the usage of it? its creation? The only case I can think in case of Try are the Zakus and even then they serve a good example in showing how power scales differently in the nationals unlike what they did before.

>This is the core fault of your argument, misidentifying brand recognition for narrative themes.
And this is what I said posts ago: Evangelion failed to further develop this potential decades ago. We had countless of works that regardless of its quality, went by "brand Recognition" so far, it worked on different levels depending of the approach. Evangelion didn't do what Gundam did decades before, like Macross did it and other decades old series, hell, even Mazinger Z managed to do it, and all these series relied on the visual aspect of it (kinda obvious, since those are mostly visual works).

When I say this is the way to go, it is because it worked so far for Evangelion, and it is what other series did too. If you think the narrative aspect of it will carry evangelion further, sorry but it surely won't. Lets use another Tomino example: Space Runaway Ideon or even Dunbine. Both works in different levels didn't manage to surpass generations like Gundam did, both are very cool and narrative driven stories, but it didn't manage to have a cultural impact that the previous series did. And Gundam even shows even more that I am right in this assessment since it was the plastic models that Bandai started releasing in 1980, when the story wasn't even available on TV anymore, that sparkled a renaissance and the Gundam movies were produced and TV reruns got started. And in Evangelion case, look at Eva-info website, what do you see there? Products and more products being released because they relie on the visual aspect of the series. Not the narrative aspect.

In this regard, I was proven in the past, since all the Evangelion related stories and media that exists since 25 years ago are mostly founded in the visual aspect of it (Shinji Ikari Raising Project manga for example, it is a basic harem romcom with Evangelion skin), the "present" (all these collabs) and it is going to be in the future too (probably).

What I really don't get it, is why do you have this almost inoccent take? is it because you love Evangelion so much that you are blinded to how khara and groundworks treat evangelion and even other companies treats their own works? (outside example: The Halo TV series, using the visual aspect to tell a story that isn't related at all to the previous media or LOTR amazon TV series).

Brand recognition as you said carried lots of franchises all over decades, even when narrative media wasn't even existent (Doctor Who and Star Strek for example). Do you think Evangelion is any different than those countless examples or do you wish it was? Because I am quite certain that it isn't, the past, the present and the future (according to anno's desire and khara's) are going to be green and purple, white and yellow, with a nerv emblem here and a character using brands clothes there, holding an UCC coffee too, until a new project comes along. Just like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmDL8OQuA-g

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby Blockio » Tue May 17, 2022 1:42 pm

Given the way you consistently misconstruct my arguments about overarching themes by pretending that a single, however insignificant counterexample completely invalidates the existence of larger trends, I think we are done here.

I'd also like to point out that had you talked down to any non-staffer in this fashion, you would have been hit with disciplinary action a number of posts ago.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Sooner or later could be realized some anime's series that will be severals Evangelion's reboot?

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Postby nerv bae » Tue May 17, 2022 3:53 pm

In my opinion, "Evangelion" is a tight integration of characters, setting, theme, and so on. The original TV series plus EoE is Evangelion, as are the Rebuilds. Both valid, well-integrated Evangelions. I imagine that removal of any of these integrated elements would leave us with something else. Maybe something good! But only questionably Evangelion.

I'm excited at the potential for timeskip additions in the Rebuild continuity/loop. Hell, in a few years I'd be excited to see a re-Rebuild. My body is ready; let's take the whole ride again. There're enough levers to pull and knobs to turn inside the integration of elements that a third pass could be original and even excellent.


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