I definitely think there is some connection between her past, the photo, and her name Mary Iscariot. The theory that Mary Iscariot is someone who she used to be before she became Illustrious is quite interesting. I can't help but feel as though there was some backstory to Mari that was shown in the 3.33 preview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOrRhsPPeok that just never got developed. The scene might imply that she is a clone considering how the next shot after hers is Rei clones. She might have been the clone rather than Asuka during the initial storyboarding (afterall she seems like a better candidate for this type of storyline compared with Asuka tbh).

Another possibility is that this is all a reference to the manga. This is a clear indication considering the still black and white scenes quite literally mimic manga pages. Why she shows up in the past is still not clear, probably just Anno doing some bullshitting or him wanting to connect all the dots of the Eva metauniverse).

My conspiracy theory is that the original 3.0 which covers the timeskip would have focused on Mari and Asuka as the main characters, and would’ve delved significantly into their history instead of shoehorning everything into the last movie.

If memory serves me, the original draft for Q was said to not have Shinji in it at all, so probably, yeah

It also makes sense narratively-speaking to give them some character at this point in the story. Looking at it objectively, it’s honestly kinda insane that pretty much everything we know about them is revealed at the very end of the last movie with very little buildup. Imagine if in NGE Asuka’s entire backstory is explained during Instrumentality in End of Evangelion, lol. That’s literally what this is equivalent to.

I don’t think it’s too fanfiction-bullshitty to suggest that it may have played out similarly to Eps 20-24 of NGE, where Asuka can’t/isn’t allowed to pilot anymore and has to deal with the cool new girl taking her place. And I think Mari’s role may have been similar to Kaworu in Ep 24, only tailored to Asuka’s personality instead of Shinji. In terms of being someone who refuses to be pushed away by her, and gives her unconditional love/friendship regardless of how Asuka treats her.

That would pretty much give a 1:1 mapping of Rebuild movies to the structure of Evangelion, of which Eps 20-24 which are HIGHLY IMPORTANT IN THE ORIGINAL SERIES are conspicuously missing in the movies we actually got. With the “original” 3.0 the ending of the movie (Third Impact) basically being the end of Ep 25’ of EoE.

I guess the question is, with that original draft of 3.0, what would’ve happened in 3.0+1.0? Presumably, some version of the events of the actual 3.0 would still have happened, but 3.0+1.0 ALREADY is 2.5 hours long. Maybe the 2nd act would have been shortened significantly, and a compacted version of 3.0 tacked onto the front.

This is something I’m willing to give them a pass on though because it’s clear that choosing to completely re-do the concept of 3.0 derailed a lot of their original plans, and that 2.0 might have been written completely differently if they knew that going in. I seriously doubt they would have let Asuka and Mari be basically nothing characters in 2.0 if they knew up-front that 3.0 would have little room to dedicate to their screen time. We know of at least two Mari scenes that were cut due to runtime (IIRC, one where she has tea with Shinji on the rooftop and one where she’s in an elevator with Misato and Rei) so clearly they had more plans for her development that simply could not fit into the current structure.

Archer wrote:My conspiracy theory is that the original 3.0 which covers the timeskip would have focused on Mari and Asuka as the main characters, and would’ve delved significantly into their history instead of shoehorning everything into the last movie.

I suspect the focus would be on Kaworu and Kaji. When Anno mentioned the original draft for 3.0, he especifically mentioned Kaworu and Kaji becoming Commander and Vice-Commander of NERV.

I don't think Asuka will have a so relevant plot in the original draft for 3.0, since her Eva was totally destroyed and she was likely still recovering. I think the plans for Asuka was always to be more relevant in the fourth movie.

Mari could be more relevant in the original draft for 3.0, but we don't know the plans.

Archer wrote:I don’t think it’s too fanfiction-bullshitty to suggest that it may have played out similarly to Eps 20-24 of NGE, where Asuka can’t/isn’t allowed to pilot anymore and has to deal with the cool new girl taking her place. And I think Mari’s role may have been similar to Kaworu in Ep 24, only tailored to Asuka’s personality instead of Shinji. In terms of being someone who refuses to be pushed away by her, and gives her unconditional love/friendship regardless of how Asuka treats her.

Honestly, I feel you might be adding a lot of your personal wishes into this.

I don't think they have planned so much about the characters interactions in the original plans for 3.0. I guess there was a general outline of events, but many details were not planned at that point.

For example: Kaji's sacrifice to stop the Third Impact was a late idea. In the imageboards for Blu-ray of 3.333, we could see one the original plans was that Kaji was alive and living in NERV after the timeskip.


PS: Thanks to these imageboards, we could know they had already decided 3.0 would be after the timeskip for 2011.

Maybe this already has been covered, but does Mari's name offer any insight into her nature? The other "-nami" named characters are clones. Thus, Ayanami is a clone in both NGE and NTE; NGE's original Asuka Soryu becomes NTE's clone Asuka Shikinami. Does "Makinami" suggest that she is the clone of a previous Mari?

If so, who cloned her and for what purpose?

Yup, a lot of ink has been spilled over the significance of "Makinami." The first speculation I can find in these search results going back to 2009 that Makinami identifies a clone series is from 2012, way before the Shikinamis were confirmed as clones in 2021!

Most of the Mari-as-clone theories revolve around her original cloning herself as part of a private, secret scheme, unlike the Ayanamis and Shikinamis which were institutional projects.

Archer wrote:Anyways, how about an alternative hypothesis: Mary was absorbed into the core some time after the photo was taken, and was in fact only recovered as Mari very recently - possibly FROM the skeletonized Angel at Bethany Base. I think I actually like this explanation the best, as it no longer requires you to come up with a justification for what the hell she was doing during the last 20-odd years. You’d think that having a pilot candidate who’s forever young, has no debilitating mental health issues, is intimately familiar with the ins and outs of how and Evangelion works, and is actually pretty gung-ho about getting in the robot would be a valuable asset they would’ve made use of sooner.

Fun to think about. I think there are eight cores under human control at the beginning of NTE:

1) Unit 0 (Tokyo-3)
2) Unit 1 (Tokyo-3)
3) Unit 2 (Europe)
4) Unit 3 (USA)
5) Unit 4 (USA)
6) Unit 5 (North pole)
7) Mark 6 (Literally the moon)
8) 3rd Angel (North pole)

I don't think Mari could have been absorbed in any of the cores I've struck through, because her extraction would interfere with other plot elements too much. Maybe she was extracted from Unit 4 just prior to its explosive demise

Unit 2 is a possibility. She does seem weirdly familiar with it for no adequately explained reason, and given that she’s supposedly (half) Br*tish it’s possible she would have spent some of her time at Euro NERV. Maybe it was “her” Eva (like Unit 1 was Yui’s) when it was being developed. Maybe she got sucked in trying to go beast mode, lol.

I still think the Third Angel makes the most sense. Given the fact that it’s clearly been extensively modified and experimented on, we can assume that it’s not some new project and certainly predates the events of the movies. Oh yeah, and it also has what appears to be an entry plug stuck inside its neck, which supports the idea that they might have tried to sync with it - maybe it was the original “test platform” for the entry plug system before the Evangelions were built.

There was a great Japanese specula video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIqXW878ZdY

From memory, it's mainly based on the various details from the flashbacks seen during Gendo's instrumentality, but some of the main points:

- Gendo and Mari original were lab mates in college, working on cloning/genetics
- Yui worked in Fuyutsuki's lab, and they specialied in brain science
- Mari had a admiration/envy relationship towards Yui
- She made a clone of herself. Unlike the original, the clone would have large breasts like those of Yui (the original Mari can be seen quite flat chested in the flashbacks), as a maniufestation of her envy. The clone also has the original's memories.
- The Mari original kept working for Nerv (off screen), and likely perished in the Eva-04 accident (hence the scene of Mari looking sad towards the solar towers in 2.0, immediately after the incident). Possibly the other remaining Asuka clone died there too, adding to the sadness.
- Fuyutsuki's disdainful remarks towards the advanced Ayanami series perhaps stem from him being a neuroscientist, and having witnesses essentially the creation of mindless human clones (i.e., deprived of the Fruit of Knowledge and hence "pure").

...and lots of other details. Highly recommended for those who understand Japanese.

- She made a clone of herself. Unlike the original, the clone would have large breasts like those of Yui (the original Mari can be seen quite flat chested in the flashbacks), as a maniufestation of her envy. The clone also has the original's memories.

Hahah what the fuck

That theorist focusing on the important details I see

nerv bae wrote:Right, I think that list of three alternatives is the current consensus:

1) She's Mari.
2) She's Mari's biological mother*.
3) She's Mari's original (from whom Mari was cloned).

I also agree with option 3.

I used to think there was an actual Eva curse that kept her from aging ever since a contact experiment in college, but now I'm sure the "curse" is just something the pilots got told to explain why they don't age.
They don't age because they're manufactured.

I'd rule out #2 because I think the concept of pilots being put into Evas that had absorbed the souls of their mothers was scrapped entirely for this universe, leaving Yui as the only exception.

They don't age because they're manufactured.

This is clearly untrue, we see a baby Asuka :P

Archer wrote:

They don't age because they're manufactured.

This is clearly untrue, we see a baby Asuka :P

Ah. I assumed that segment was representing her inner child as opposed to an actual memory.

I think it’s both. Like, obviously an adult Kensuke wasn’t there IRL, but I assumed the event itself was at least based on a real memory of hers (despite the logistics not really making all that much sense). The way it’s lit and shot reminds me of the “real memory” Instrumentality scenes from EoE (e.g. kitchen scene) rather than the highly symbolic/metaphorical ones (e.g. Shinji in the sandbox).

I'm for the clone theory (with or without memory transfer - Mari could just simply have known & been raised by her donor. But we know memory transfer tech exists because of Rei.) for 3 reasons:

- In 2.0 Mari complains that the green suit no longer fits properly, says she is piloting for the first time (in a situation where she is essentially talking to herself not acting for anybody's benefit), and that she "doesn't like relying on adults" - & this is not a throwaway line but a focussed-on exposition moment.

- The woman in the photo seems too tall, taller than Yui even. There's no precedent for aging backwards.

- Both Asuka's dialogue with Rei Q & what she says to Shinji about "still being a pseudo lillin" implies that all the pilots are somehow artificial. Nor is it probably a coincidence that Mari has a last name resembling the other 2 clone series.

Kendrix wrote:But we know memory transfer tech exists because of Rei.)

Memory transfer sort of worked from clone to clone, but Rei doesn't appear to have memories from Yui or Lilith.

Archer wrote:The way it’s lit and shot reminds me of the “real memory” Instrumentality scenes from EoE (e.g. kitchen scene) rather than the highly symbolic/metaphorical ones (e.g. Shinji in the sandbox).

I think it's the other way round. I always saw the sandbox scene as a distortion of a real memory (how he remembers it, but not how it happened).
I don't think the kitchen scene was based on anything that happened. Maybe a bit farfetched, but I think that kitchen scene was something or someone influencing his decision to end the world.

Hi, about the clone theory, I think to give memories or a little bit of memories back to the clone, the real person needs to be alive or on some place to be able to take those memories. Rei on Rebuild 3 (I name the rebuilds by 1, 2, 3 and 4 hehe) doesn't have any kind of memories because they can't find the Rei II, also, the washes on the LCL isn't mandatory to create a clone from zero, it can be used too to take the soul of the person.

I doesn't have too much knowledge about all the theory's because I don't wanted to see any video or forum (Till now I opened reddit and saw evageeks). But I think that some things of the rebuild have some kind of relation with the NGE series.

Also the theory that he maybe got into an Eva or something on the USA base, have a lot of sense for me, initially when I was watching the rebuild 2 I thought "Mari comes from USA, I'm sure".

Thanks for reading hehe

Well if you say things like these are shared between rebuild and nge then the part about the host needing to be alive to make a new clone with memories is incorrect. They made rei3 after rei2 completely vaporized.

I think ReiQ (thats what we call her in the third rebuild movie) doesn't have any memories because they don't need her to.
It's clear ReiQ is much more programmed and obedient.
Maybe they no longer have the capability to do so, lot's of facilities have been destroyed after all. But point is that it doesn't really matter for Gendo's goals at the end.

Storywise, I think they deliberately aren't using techs like these everywhere where you would expect them to (you would expect it on ReiQ) simply to keep stuff like that mysterious and vague, keep us guessing

But in the end, afaik, we only know they can alter/wipe memories because Fuyutsuki explicitly mentioned it, other than that, i dont think we got any hard clues or evidence.

Zoop wrote:Well if you say things like these are shared between rebuild and nge then the part about the host needing to be alive to make a new clone with memories is incorrect. They made rei3 after rei2 completely vaporized.

I think ReiQ (thats what we call her in the third rebuild movie) doesn't have any memories because they don't need her to.
It's clear ReiQ is much more programmed and obedient.
Maybe they no longer have the capability to do so, lot's of facilities have been destroyed after all. But point is that it doesn't really matter for Gendo's goals at the end.

Storywise, I think they deliberately aren't using techs like these everywhere where you would expect them to (you would expect it on ReiQ) simply to keep stuff like that mysterious and vague, keep us guessing

But in the end, afaik, we only know they can alter/wipe memories because Fuyutsuki explicitly mentioned it, other than that, i dont think we got any hard clues or evidence.

Ohhhhhh epic, thanks for the explication, I'll see the rebuilds to understand better somethings. Thanks you very much

Zoop wrote:They made rei3 after rei2 completely vaporized.

Merely carbonised.