we really need the original 3.0 movie that was shown in the preview in 2.0 because we need to know how the world was when unit 01 was stopped halfway to causing the end of the world because then the 3.0 movie ceases make sense completely because apparently an impact was predicted to occur then and that's why SEELE deployed unit 06 or SEELE activated unit 06 because NERV was basically reduced to a pilot in a half-repaired eva and an artificial pilot that it was equipped in the most unstable eva of all that has the ability to say "fuck you" to nerv if Shinji is not the Pilot.

and a question, kensuke tells Shinji that Kaji sacrificed himself to stop the near third impact. but do we know that Kaji sacrificed himself to stop the third impact that occurred at the hands of the 06 weeks/months later. So is it a designation problem or is it that something similar to the anime happened where the official story of what happened is completely different from what actually happened?

We know that Kaji sacrified himself to stop Third Impact, not the earlier Near Third Impact, because in 3+1's Third Impact flashback we see Kaji headed for a Wille VTOL after Mark 06 decapitates Lilith. Also, in the Prime English translation I think both Kensuke and Misato refer to the sacrifice happening during Third Impact, not Near third Impact.

The18°angel wrote:and a question, kensuke tells Shinji that Kaji sacrificed himself to stop the near third impact. but do we know that Kaji sacrificed himself to stop the third impact that occurred at the hands of the 06 weeks/months later. So is it a designation problem or is it that something similar to the anime happened where the official story of what happened is completely different from what actually happened?

I guess you have heard or read the Latin Spanish dub or sub where Kensuke says Kaji sacrificed to stop the Near Third Impact. This is a big mistake in that translation.

In the original (and English translation), Kensuke says Kaji sacrificed to stop the Third Impact.


PS: The other times that Kensuke mentioned the Near Third Impact in Latin Spanish dub or sub are correctly translated.

Kensuke knows the difference between the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact.


Kensuke speaks about the Near Third Impact:

Kensuke: Toji and the class rep getting married really took me off guard. Back in middle school, they were always at each other's throats. I guess Near Third Impact broke the ice, and all the resulting hardship brought them together. Ikari... Near Third wasn't all bad.

Kensuke: Thanks for joining me so early. My old man made it through Near Third Impact, so back then I never thought he'd just up and die in an accident. Given what happened... I should have talked to him. Grabbed a drink or something, listened to him grumbling.


Kensuke speaks about the Third Impact:

Kensuke: He died. Third Impact could only be stopped if someone was sacrificed. Kaji-san chose that fate for himself... and Misato-san let him do it. For a long time, Ikari, she's felt bad about making you shoulder so much responsibility. She thinks the burden should have been hers instead. That's why she didn't want you piloting an Eva again, right? Ikari, you're not the only one who's in pain. Misato-san's suffering, too.


PS: Translations by Reichu.

nerv bae wrote:This is tricky. Moon to Earth transit time on a 1-g brachistochrone is apparently only a few hours (much faster than the Apollo missions, which took a couple of days to cover the same distance), but whether you assume Mark 06 left the moon 1) when the 10th Angel was spotted or 2) later when the impending Impact was apparent, the timeline is still crazy-tight. The whole 10th Angel encounter takes only 20 minutes screen time which can't be more than an hour of real time experienced by the characters.

It's easier for me to just believe that Mark 06 was dispatched from the moon even before the appearance of the 10th Angel, according to some Dead Sea Scroll forecast, and with the Spear of Cassius in knowledge that an Impact would need stopping.

I think Seele would have dispatched the Mark.06 sooner or later, with the spear regardless (what would be the point of leaving it behind on the Moon?); whether to stop the 10th angel or Near Third Impact, they were eventually planning to do their own version of Third Impact anyway. The 10th angel's attack possibly forced (rushed?) their hand, or maybe the Mark.06 just so happened to be ready at that exact moment. Kaworu's line "It is time!" could be taken in many different ways; but his sortie ends up aligning perfectly with Mari's. I think perhaps this is just for a nice for drammatic effect...

DantesInferno wrote:Kaworu's line "It is time!" could be taken in many different ways; ...

Oh duh, we see during Kaworu's line that he's still on the moon after the appearance of the 10th Angel, so I was wrong to believe that Mark 06 was dispatched from the moon before that.


Normal rockets can't possibly get Kaworu to the Earth on the timeline we see, so Mark 06 (or its carried spear) can accelerate very, very hard! Spooky FAR-tech stuff.

Lacissal wrote:From what we know of the ADAMs in Rebuild, there's nothing to say that they're a Seed of Life, or that the concept of Seeds of Life analagous to the FAR sending out Seeds in NGE exists or Seeds with different fruits or a FAR setting rules about the Seeds merging. Lilith is the source of life on Earth and Humanity, but that could be more like plenty of stories in other media where humanity is more the creation of a demiurge than the FAR souls of NGE.

I'm not so sure about this, I believe in 1.0 or 2.0 Misato dragged Shinji to Central Dogma where she statet that Angels must not reach/merge with Lilith.

ElMariachi wrote:Not helping NTE's case is that at several points through the movies the characters introduce and/or bring attention on certain elements, informing us viewers that they are vital for the accomplishment of an Impact and thus will be important later, and then have the last movie contradicting it ...

You nailed it. This is why I stopped digging, there's just too many contradictions.

Axx°N N. wrote:

ElMariachi#932212 wrote:With the repetition of third-, near third-, final-, another impact, etc., the calculus has become exponential and it becomes more of a challenge to suspend disbelief and go with the flow, even if it all levels out into the same dramatic demand ...

Maybe Anno did this on purpose to kinda double down on the meta-message of the movie, by making fun of it and taking it to an extreme? I mean "another Impact", really?

Cola-09 wrote:Maybe Anno did this on purpose to kinda double down on the meta-message of the movie, by making fun of it and taking it to an extreme? I mean "another Impact", really?

That's quite possible, and it seems to be a popular interpretation. I've seen many people lament on the music in the ship battle sequence, that it takes you out of the scene / is out of place, and if it is some kind of brechtian device, it would be neatly explained with a simple "it's supposed to do that." The problem there, though--not that I'm trying to kneecap NTE's message and its effectiveness specifically, this is more in the abstract--is that you could attach a meaningful intention to screaming in someone's ear, but it's still unpleasant and it still is, on some level, just a physical assault. If certain scenes are constructed (for the sake of a message) to actively not engage you on a certain level, what other level it's supposed to be engaging you on should hugely justify it. I'm not convinced NTE really does have a grand meta-message though, or that if it does it's not the skeleton key. I think things like the ship battle are actually trying to recapture a more simple kind of light entertainment fun that Eva traditionally has swirled away from and into a mental breakdown at this point in the narrative. I think there's less Brecht going on, more the anime industry version of New Sincerity, which in this case involves goofier action and more freewheeling fanservice.

Axx°N N. wrote:That's quite possible, and it seems to be a popular interpretation. I've seen many people lament on the music in the ship battle sequence, that it takes you out of the scene / is out of place, and if it is some kind of brechtian device, it would be neatly explained with a simple "it's supposed to do that." The problem there, though--not that I'm trying to kneecap NTE's message and its effectiveness specifically, this is more in the abstract--is that you could attach a meaningful intention to screaming in someone's ear, but it's still unpleasant and it still is, on some level, just a physical assault. If certain scenes are constructed (for the sake of a message) to actively not engage you on a certain level, what other level it's supposed to be engaging you on should hugely justify it. I'm not convinced NTE really does have a grand meta-message though, or that if it does it's not the skeleton key. I think things like the ship battle are actually trying to recapture a more simple kind of light entertainment fun that Eva traditionally has swirled away from and into a mental breakdown at this point in the narrative. I think there's less Brecht going on, more the anime industry version of New Sincerity, which in this case involves goofier action and more freewheeling fanservice.

Honestly, considering that Anno seems very interested in the technical aspect, I think the ship battle may be something that he really wanted to show. That's why the movie dedicate so much time to the ship battle.

On the other hand, the aspects that Anno is not so interested in explaining or showing happen very quickly. For example: We have a pretty quick explanation of the lore by Gendo.

Axx°N N. wrote:

Cola-09#935043 wrote:Maybe Anno did this on purpose to kinda double down on the meta-message of the movie, by making fun of it and taking it to an extreme? I mean "another Impact", really?

That's quite possible, and it seems to be a popular interpretation. I've seen many people lament on the music in the ship battle sequence, that it takes you out of the scene / is out of place, and if it is some kind of brechtian device, it would be neatly explained with a simple "it's supposed to do that." The problem there, though--not that I'm trying to kneecap NTE's message and its effectiveness specifically, this is more in the abstract--is that you could attach a meaningful intention to screaming in someone's ear, but it's still unpleasant and it still is, on some level, just a physical assault. If certain scenes are constructed (for the sake of a message) to actively not engage you on a certain level, what other level it's supposed to be engaging you on should hugely justify it. I'm not convinced NTE really does have a grand meta-message though, or that if it does it's not the skeleton key. I think things like the ship battle are actually trying to recapture a more simple kind of light entertainment fun that Eva traditionally has swirled away from and into a mental breakdown at this point in the narrative. I think there's less Brecht going on, more the anime industry version of New Sincerity, which in this case involves goofier action and more freewheeling fanservice.

Hm, I gotta admit that the abrupt introduction of Mari as well as her behavior always made me feel like she doesn't belong to the EVA universe. The final film made it pretty clear that she had a good understanding of how things work. She even dampens the drama by taking certain situations very lightly and in a jokey way, as if we as the viewers shouldn't get too invested (or the story is so ridiculous that it's not worth explaining?). Then she had some deal with Fuyutsuki, he refers to her as Judas, she destroys the remaining vessels and drags Shinji into a live worthy reality where he can take responsibility.

Or, everything makes a ton of sense and I'm just too stupid to figure it out, haha.

Axx°N N. wrote:That's quite possible, and it seems to be a popular interpretation. I've seen many people lament on the music in the ship battle sequence, that it takes you out of the scene / is out of place, and if it is some kind of brechtian device, it would be neatly explained with a simple "it's supposed to do that." The problem there, though--not that I'm trying to kneecap NTE's message and its effectiveness specifically, this is more in the abstract--is that you could attach a meaningful intention to screaming in someone's ear, but it's still unpleasant and it still is, on some level, just a physical assault. If certain scenes are constructed (for the sake of a message) to actively not engage you on a certain level, what other level it's supposed to be engaging you on should hugely justify it. I'm not convinced NTE really does have a grand meta-message though, or that if it does it's not the skeleton key. I think things like the ship battle are actually trying to recapture a more simple kind of light entertainment fun that Eva traditionally has swirled away from and into a mental breakdown at this point in the narrative. I think there's less Brecht going on, more the anime industry version of New Sincerity, which in this case involves goofier action and more freewheeling fanservice.

The thing you have to keep in mind with a lot of Shin (or Eva in general!) is the cultural context Anno is drawing from, a lot of which is fairly well-known to Japanese viewers but has not made it overseas. The ship battle sequence in particular isn't intended to take you out of the scene, it's a very deliberate callback to old scifi anime of the 80s and before, where it was the norm that big battle sequences like that were accompanied by what we would today consider to be silly sounding music. The claim that it is meant to make you think less about the contents of a scene rides entirely on an unfamiliarity with the history of the genre; this is not meant as a slight, noone can be expected to know the ins and outs of every genre of fiction across the globe, but it is an important to keep in mind when discussing the intent of scenes. Any viewing experience is fundamentally shaped by the familiarities with tropes and artistic expressions of the viewer, so any talk about the intended effect of a scene by necessity needs to consider the (pop-)cultural context that the creator and primary target audience (which in the case of Eva, the English-speaking community very much is not) come from.

Blockio wrote:The thing you have to keep in mind with a lot of Shin (or Eva in general!) is the cultural context Anno is drawing from, a lot of which is fairly well-known to Japanese viewers but has not made it overseas. The ship battle sequence in particular isn't intended to take you out of the scene, it's a very deliberate callback to old scifi anime of the 80s and before, where it was the norm that big battle sequences like that were accompanied by what we would today consider to be silly sounding music. The claim that it is meant to make you think less about the contents of a scene rides entirely on an unfamiliarity with the history of the genre; this is not meant as a slight, noone can be expected to know the ins and outs of every genre of fiction across the globe, but it is an important to keep in mind when discussing the intent of scenes. Any viewing experience is fundamentally shaped by the familiarities with tropes and artistic expressions of the viewer, so any talk about the intended effect of a scene by necessity needs to consider the (pop-)cultural context that the creator and primary target audience (which in the case of Eva, the English-speaking community very much is not) come from.

All true. I should have been more specific with "recapturing entertainment fun" as I was referring to exactly that. Thanks for embellishing, and to further the point (you may be aware already) the song during the ship battle scene ("激突!轟天対大魔艦") is actually straight from this 70s tokusatsu film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_in_Space

Ya'll are talking about this song from this ship battle sequence? That song owns.

nerv bae wrote:Ya'll are talking about this song from this ship battle sequence?

Yes, and you can hear the original version in a trailer linked in the post where this was initially discovered (along with some translation and sleuthing fun): post/922009/The-Music-of-3010/#922009

Axx°N N. wrote:All true. I should have been more specific with "recapturing entertainment fun" as I was referring to exactly that. Thanks for embellishing, and to further the point (you may be aware already) the song during the ship battle scene ("激突!轟天対大魔艦") is actually straight from this 70s tokusatsu film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_in_Space

Gotcha. And yeah, I was aware of the fact that it was from an older thing, but I wasn't 100% sure anymore, which one it was ^^
Also we should probably get this back on topic a bit more, fun as that tangent was

Okay, so today I rewatched EoE after a long time and to be honest I was quite baffled how much of the supposedly 'random' stuff that happens in NTE actually relates to the lore of EoE. For a long time I thought that they have revamped how impacts work in NTE.

For example in EoE Seele refers to the 'almost broken ego of the pilot' (when Shinji almost went insane after he saw what happened to Asuka) basically implying that Shinji awakened the EVA-01. This is also nicely illustrated in almost the same scene as we see Eva-01 grow wings and become red-eyed. So in EoE they never really use the word 'awakening' but kinda imply it.

In another scene we briefly see the mass production EVAs impale themselves (or to be more accurate their cores) as some sort of sacrifice. This would nicely correlate to the theory that NTE introduced a new requirement - to kill an angel or absorb its core.

So is the NTE lore really 'new', or has Anno just fleshed out the mechanics in the new movies? Thoughts?

There's definitely some meta-level overlap in between the continuities, but there is also a fair amount of differences in how the specifics work. I'm pushing 16 hours of awake time right now, so I don't trust myself to go into any specifics right now, but there are a fair amount of things that look similar at a glance, but the internal mechanics work quite differently

After giving much thought I wonder if it's like this:

Third Impact is divided in three phases. The first two are what mankind refers as Near Third Impact and the third is referred just as Third Impact. Kaworu refers to the whole thing as Third Impact.
Phase 1: Awakening of Unit 01 and stopping with the Spear of Cassius.
Phase 2: Undisclosed event that happens some time later of Unit 01 continuing the Impact with Shinji piloting either consciously(and having his memory erased) or unconsciously.
Phase 3: Mark.06 fuses with Lilith.

The idea for phase 2 came to me from the Japan Animator Expo short "Until you come to me" specifically this part:


I'm not sure which phase Kaji stopped or in the case of two if he even stopped it at all but if he did then that might explain why Misato seems resentful towards Shinji(edit: Never mind Kaji dying alone will make Misato resent Shinji regardless if he succeeded or not). If phase 2 happened then there's a chance that event was recorded live internationally which would explain why everyone blames Shinji since they saw it with their own eyes(err.. well through a camera). After the events of phase 2 is when presumably Unit 01 limbs are cut and sent to space.

Finally the weird thing is and this might be a coincidence all the uploads of "Until you come to me" have been taken down from Youtube.

Konja7 wrote:However, I suspect the corification of the land could be a late consequence of the N3I

I'm not really sure of that. The corification of the land was most likely caused by NTE 's version of Instrumentality, which, according to Kaworu, happened. Not only was the land corificated, but the Infinities were created. We have visual evidence that all of that happened after the actual 3I, as shown by this short. We don't know much about Shinji's role in the 3I, but he is connected to it somehow. He was at the epicenter of the event and he rejected Instrumentality, as said by Gendo himself in Shin during their debate.
Ultimately, whether he was to blame or not doesn't change the fact that he was at the epicenter of it all. People are bound to dislike him because of this, especially since he is Gendo's son. I don't know why this is such a mystery to some.

AlphaZero wrote:Third Impact is divided in three phases. The first two are what mankind refers as Near Third Impact and the third is referred just as Third Impact

I don't know. When Gendo is describing the various impacts they don't use any N3I footage to represent the 3I. But they use footage from Q to represent the 4I, meaning it's the same event we saw in Shin. In other words, the Additional Impact is a continuation of the 4I in Shin, while the N3I and the 3I seem to be different things all together...

BernardoCairo wrote:I don't know. When Gendo is describing the various impacts they don't use any N3I footage to represent the 3I. But they use footage from Q to represent the 4I, meaning it's the same event we saw in Shin. In other words, the Additional Impact is a continuation of the 4I in Shin, while the N3I and the 3I seem to be different things all together...

Respectfully, it's not necessary to show Ha's Near Third Impact if anything it supports it's the same event since Gendo knows which event goes with which Impact(I mean he knows more than Kaworu by that point). The only thing that could be at odds with this is that they show Lilith's Rei-like giant head about to blow up(which corresponds with Fourth Impact)during Gendo's dialogue about Third Impact but that could be the movie just showing the result of the post fusion of Mark.06 with her. If that sounds confusing think it like this:
Lilith's Rei-like head & Red planet(in the order the movie shows it) -> Results of 3I
That particular scene seconds before the head inflates and blows up -> Beginning of 4I being used to highlight what was the result of 3I
I'm clearing this up because Gendo is talking about 3I yet they show an event from 4I which would confuse anyone.

The Impact in Q is the Fourth Impact just the beginning ceremony as Kaworu said. I don't think Additional Impact has anything to do with Fourth Impact it's just that it happens to be caused right after it. Alternatively, Additional Impact could've happened after Third Impact if everything went exactly how he wanted in other words if he had full control or maybe he needed to do it(as a failsafe) so he had control using Unit 13 instead of Shinji using Unit 01(as epicenter for the outcome of the Impact because by using Unit 01, inhabited by the soul of Shinji's mother would've given him the final decision as opposed to Unit 13 giving it to Gendo since he used Nebuchadnezzar's key).