Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:50 pm

I guess it's time for a rewatch if I'm to point at specific things (this movie is not yet in my bones the way Q, in particular is). I could say "by their fruits shall ye know them", but I think you deserve more than just pointing out that the result is some evidence for the process, at least if you've done something similar IRL. I'll try to do that in the next few days.

I thank you for your kind words about my story. I must admit that I still feel it is a realistic basis for an alternative path to the ending - but then I would, wouldn't I! Though of course it doesn't address the more arcane lore matters.
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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby Derantor » Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:07 pm

Yeah, I want to know how that journey took place; something happened, that much is clear, but I don't know what. I'll try to rewatch the movie(s) too. I'm sure there's a lot that I missed.

(I'm very much interested in all the nitty gritty character work stuff. Most of what I write and talk about in other places reg. Eva is bound up in that completely. Your story (for those reading along, it's "Afterwards", link in the fanfiction section in my linking) is very much what I would have expected to happen in Shin, at least in condensed form. It show's a good deal of life experience, which is exactly what Shinji would have needed.)
My writing on Ao3 and FFN

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby nerv bae » Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:42 am

View Original PostDerantor wrote:So, uh - has anybody gone through Shinji's scenes and tried to compile all the hints of what might be going through his head?

There's a starter list in the topic's original post:

View Original Postdzzthink wrote:I think there are some interesting scenes that might highlight what ultimately led to Shinji's change:

-There is a scene where Shinji is sitting in the farm fields and the smell of dirt reminds him of his conversation with Kaji when planting watermelons about the good in this world and how pain is natural.
- His previous conversation with Rei III that snapped him out of his initial despondence. The way she says 'because we like you' seems to reveal to Shinji the faith people place on him and how his negative perceptions were false.
-when fighting with Gendo in the Antiuniverse, there is a flashback of Kensuke, Toji, and Rei III, which leads to Shinji putting down his weapon and start talking to his father.
-Shinji's final conversation with Rei III, where she details her own personal growth and fondness for Shinji

I would add to this list:

-After Asuka and Mari leave Shinji in his quarters on the Wunder, he reaches for the absent DSS choker around his neck and experiences a memory of Kaworu's advice from Q:
Shin wrote:Kaworu: Shinji-kun, you should find peace of mind and a place to call your own.
Kaworu: The ties that bind will show you the way.
Kaworu: We'll meet again.

In Q, Kaworu gave this advice as he speared impacting Unit 13, immediately before his DSS choker exploded. It is a marker of Shinji's development in Shin that he can recall Kaworu's advice calmly, with a smile, given that the advice was originally delivered an instant before Kaworu's extraordinarily traumatic death. (Hadn't thought of this until now, but it strikes me as foreshadowing Shinji's later calm acceptance of Misato's similar self-sacrifice.)

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:27 pm

I honestly don't think we can define Shinji as a hero in the sense of the word, considering the fact that he is different from both the classic protagonists of the mecha genre and the concept of hero in general that we are used to normally find in anime protagonists.

We can say that he is a person who has become a heroic person because he managed to solve his problems and grow mentally enough to help even his father understand his mistakes and recognize his weaknesses. A normal anime hero would have defeated the villain and saved the world, but Shinji since different from the classic heroes has found himself in a situation where understanding the villain and talking to him was the only way to solve everything.

I think I can't call him a hero, but I can certainly say that he is a far more intelligent, selfless, mature and responsible person than the self of the previous films and his NGE counterpart. EOE Shinji has practically exploited the Third Impact for to try to kill himself for end his pain and at the same time get rid of the people who caused him pain, Asuka's refusal and his belief that no one loved and understood him pushed him to decide to make the world a sterile land where all people's souls and minds have been forcibly merged and locked inside the Black Moon, when 3.0+1.0 Shinji despite how much he had suffered and how much he felt guilty and unable to do anything he managed (even if thanks to the help of other characters) to found the strength for be able to face his father and then talk to him.

EOE Shinji wanted to be loved and helped, when 3.0+1.0 Shinji has given help to Gendo, Asuka, Kaworu and Rei without expecting anything in return.

In a nutshell what I mean is that I don't think Shinji is a hero in the classic sense of the term, but if we compare him to NGE Shinji he has get a growth that has made him look quite heroic.

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby Leonaxzz » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm

Rebuild has many flaws, but I think one of the biggest problems is the narrative about grown up
Anno explicitly uses lots of characters (Gendo, Asuka, Mari, Kaworu) to declare to the audience that Shinji should and has grown up, but the plot description is far from convincing.
After Shinji admitted to Asuka that he was "unwilling to take responsibility" because he neither saved her nor killed her in the Bardiel incident, Asuka commented that he "has grown a little bit"

Let's see what's wrong with it:
In the original NGE, Shinji did cause Toji's tragedy because of his inaction (Manga's narrative is more clear at this point: Kaji pointed out that Shinji should at least try to do something to save Toji at the time)
Shinji realized this and understood that he should bear the "responsibility", so he stepped forward during the ensuing Zeruel invasion. This is a complete and continuous narrative development.
However, Shinji did the same in the Rebuild. He also stood up to fight his enemies and save his companions. Even Misato approved and encouraged his actions. In the end, he was blamed by everyone (including Asuka) 14 years later only because: he screwed up

And when we look back at Asuka’s argument, it’s even more ironic: He was blamed for failing to save her in the Bardiel incident, but he then still to be blamed for rescuing Rei in the Zeruel incident (If I remember correctly, Asuka has never positively commented on Shinji’s behavior)
Especially considering that the new settings in Rebuild make Asuka look so similar to Rei: Rei is a clone, and so is Asuka;
Rei was eaten by Angel, and Asuka was parasitized by Angel;
Rei was used as a tool to trigger N3I, and Asuka was also used as a tool to trigger 4I in the end
If Asuka and Misato are to blame Shinji for triggering Impact, how can she be sure that Shinji will not destroy the world for saving her during the Bardiel incident? (According to Gendo’s omniscient "everything is under his plan")
So what do you expect Shinji to do? Take another option: kill her? Just like Gendo uses the Dummy System to directly kill the pilot? Abandon the pilot's life like a tool, like Ritsuko sacrificed Shinji's life (whom was slapped by Misato) in NGE's Leliel incident?
"There's no way to save Rei and she is just a tool. Just letting her die will be a mature behavior." Is that what Misato wanted to tell?

Regarding the topic of "selfishness", I can understand Shinji's problem and growth in NGE
The reason why he pilots EVA is not only to protect the world, but also to get recognition and praise from others. Just like Asuka, he mistakenly believes that EVA is used to make himself happy.
In NGE, piloting EVA has never been considered a bad thing (from Misato's perspective). All Shinji needs to do is to pilot or not to. He follows Misato's instructions, pilots EVA, goes fight, and wins. That's it, and the decision that caused him to pilot EVA or not has always depended on Shinji's own inner conflict.
Since the Zeruel incident, he has piloted the EVA according to Misato's instructions and protected everyone, but he has not been happy because of it. Shinji piloted EVA again and again, but then Kaji died, his classmates left, Misato and Asuka became indifferent, Rei died and became strangers, and even Kaworu died for him.
Shinji could no longer get happiness and satisfaction through piloting EVA, so he depressed, began to escape and refuses to pilot, leaving others in danger, which can be said to be "selfish" from an objective point of view, although I can sympathize with him, and I will not blame him for it.

However, Shinji in Rebuild do wants to help and solve the problem. He cares about Asuka's situation. He asks if he can do something. He asks if Rei is well. He is also worried about the safety of his classmates.
It has been shown in the plot that Shinji actively wants to restore the situation, even if his intention may be to make him feel comfortable or less guilty, but I will never say that this behavior is meant to be "selfish"
(Surely, Shinji said to himself that he didn't care what would happen to the world when he was saving Rei, but this is another meta narrative, because at that moment Shinji had absolutely no reason to know that he might destroy the world.)
Shinji wanted to restore the situation, but somehow he screwed it up, he depressed, then got up, tried to restore the everything again, but somehow screwed it up again...
Then the conclusion just becomes: anyway, Shinji did something stupid (maybe he was too impulsive, maybe he asked too much), he messed up, so he was deemed selfish and immature.

But judging whether he messed up things depends on whether he has enough lore of the whole world, not on himself facing inner conflicts, self-examination and growth. I think this is the problem. Blame the cause on the external environment makes the whole topic out of focus.
At the end of 3.0+1.0, Shinji finally "grew up", but what is the difference? I can't tell
Shinji is willing to take responsibility, willing to restore the world, and also willing to solve problems for others, but isn't this what he has already done in the last two films?
Shinji wanted to save Rei, wanted to restore the 3I aftermath, but he messed up, so why was he sure that he won't mess up again this time? (As well as Misato, how can she so sure that Shinji won't be cheated by Gendo just like what he did in 3.0 or like Asuka was eaten by EVA-13?)

And in the end, Shinji overcomes the loss? Accept the reality and pain?
You Can (Not) Redo?
What are the "consequences" of 3.0 that cannot be solved in 3.0+1.0 in the end?
Misato’s coldness? Eventually reconciled without difficulty, not even through conversation needed.
Can't save Rei? Oh yes, we are sure that Rei finally got a second life
Kaworu died? he was resurrected as well
The destruction from N3I? Shinji used his godlike power to restore the entire earth
Yes, Shinji said that he would not turn back time or something, but since he didn't want to stay in 3rd village anyway, which has nothing to do with him anymore.

Finally, I don’t know if Anno recalls Shinji was just a 14-year-old boy?
He is still only 14 years old until the end, so please make him act like 14
Shinji from manga for example, he takes the responsibility as a pilot, so he pilots EVA, fights MP-EVAs and saves Asuka, and finally he tells Rei(Lilith) that he refuses Instrumentality.
I think understanding what you should do right now and doing what you can do is what is called grown up, but don't need to be a savior to prove it.

But Shinji in 3.0+1.0 peeked into Asuka’s memory, solved her inner trauma from childhood like a professional therapist, then ordered Rei and Kaworu how to live, like a life mentor, and created a new world as a god, while he couldn't even take care of himself a few weeks ago.
To me, this is as ridiculous as asking 15-year-old Amuro to let all Newtype understand each other and solve the contradiction between earth and the colony.

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:02 pm

View Original PostLeonaxzz wrote:Anno explicitly uses lots of characters (Gendo, Asuka, Mari, Kaworu) to declare to the audience that Shinji should and has grown up, but the plot description is far from convincing.

I find this extremely accurate. Everything else too, great post.

The evidence of the growing up process by dzzthink and nerv bae are accurate too. The problem for me, though, especially using the Kaworu apparition as evidence, is that I don't find that indicative of the actual cogs that turn in Shinji's head. I find it indicative of what the director wants the audience to think, a nudge and a shorthand. There have been multiple posts pegging NTE's treatment of Shinji's development as subtle, but on the contrary I struggle to find anything in his journey that isn't either extremely expository or a montage or long stretch of brooding/stoic silence we're supposed to take for granted involved him having a brain that can think outside of said 14-second bursts of exposition.
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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby Settie » Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:04 pm

View Original PostLeonaxzz wrote:
Finally, I don’t know if Anno recalls Shinji was just a 14-year-old boy?
He is still only 14 years old until the end, so please make him act like 14


I think understanding what you should do right now and doing what you can do is what is called grown up, but don't need to be a savior to prove it.

But Shinji in 3.0+1.0 peeked into Asuka’s memory, solved her inner trauma from childhood like a professional therapist, then ordered Rei and Kaworu how to live, like a life mentor, and created a new world as a god, while he couldn't even take care of himself a few weeks ago.
To me, this is as ridiculous as asking 15-year-old Amuro to let all Newtype understand each other and solve the contradiction between earth and the colony.


The bolded is exactly one of my main issues i had with trice and the NTE in general. The story is weirdly focused on Shinji making amends for things that were not only out of his control, but instigated by others that had more knowledge and did it regardless of the consequences. I mean the whole wishing eva away alongside the damage it caused to the world is ridiculous because the initial premise of Shinji destroying the world is equally ridiculous. There's just no coming back from something like that. Then you remember that Gendo, the one entirely responsible for the whole mess, not only gets away scott free, he actually gets rewarded for it in the end.

The movie keeps preaching about "growing up" but it never really says what exactly that means. Am i suppose to think everything is honky dory when Shinji goes from 14 to 28 in an instant and that everything is ok from then on, not addressing Shinji ping-ponging from one extreme emotional state to another when things out of his control happen? Cause i'm pretty sure the real world has those too.

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby Konja7 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:30 pm

View Original PostSettie wrote:Finally, I don’t know if Anno recalls Shinji was just a 14-year-old boy?


Honestly, I feel Anno doesn't really consider or care that Shinji is a 14 years old.

Even when the story wants to defend or console Shinji for the N3I, his young age isn't used as a reason why he shouldn't be blamed.

For example: When Misato said she should be the one to be blamed for N3I and its consequences, she only mentioned that Shinji was his subordinate. However, Shinji's age isn't even hinted.

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby Natalie the Cat » Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:12 pm

Given some of the things he's said in interviews, I imagine Anno would disdain using youth as an excuse. He has a negative view of retreating into youth to escape the world. That would put him in a bit of a pickle if he wrote a story where his self-insert got off the hook for being young.

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:34 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Honestly, I feel Anno doesn't really consider or care that Shinji is a 14 years old.

This.
If anything it symbolizes the character's lack of maturity, but outside of that I wouldn't take it too literally. Even in NGE you'd think these teens would get some sort of emotional/psychological support keeping in mind what they go through, but going for realism in that department was never the point.
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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby sithsauron » Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:45 pm

I think for Shinji's maturation... over the course of the village portion of 3.0+1.0... Shinji actually gives zero shits about anything at this point.

The village he is in, he fully expects it to blow any moment now, because that is usually what happens in his world. Even New Rei popping, while traumatizing, he expects shit like this to happen to him at a moments notice.

Shinji learns to not trust anything and give zero shits about what will happen next. He doesn't even have mental room to be selfish because the next bad thing to happen will come along a destroy that too. So a complete loss of confidence in any path and the destruction any sort of internal philosophy about happiness/sadness becomes his springboard for maturity. He can only exist in the moment at this point. Any type of internalization or mental dialogue has burned to ground with prejudice and will not grow back in his mind.

Its sort of a 'cancer is the cure' type of emotional development.

It's very Eastern-ish too, Buddha's-enlightenment style. Buddha only achieved enlightenment when he gave up on trying to achieve enlightenment. Shinji only achieved maturity when he gave up on caring about or counting on anything at all.

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:46 am

Don't remember the exact post, but someone questioned Shinhi being traumatized by Kaworu's death yet motivated by ReiQ's.
I think the key difference is Kaworu was his fault (even if indirectly). While Rei's was a wrong by his father he maybe felt he could atone for.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby Konja7 » Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:29 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:Don't remember the exact post, but someone questioned Shinhi being traumatized by Kaworu's death yet motivated by ReiQ's.
I think the key difference is Kaworu was his fault (even if indirectly). While Rei's was a wrong by his father he maybe felt he could atone for.

I don't think this is so much related to Shinji being guilty or nor.

The point is that Shinji had been slowly recovering from the trauma for Kaworu's death (which led him to a near-catatonic state). When Shinji faced a similar situation with Rei Q's death, he was able to handle this in a different way.

That doesn't mean Shinji wasn't affected by Rei Q's death. It's implied that Shinji cried a lot for Rei Q's death (his eyes when he meets Asuka and Kensuke show that).

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Postby dzzthink » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:00 pm

It was indirect in that perhaps he shouldn't have gone forward with his plans of trying to save the world, whilst Kaworu was wearing the DSS choker. It was not known what would happen but there was still an endangerment of the choker going off following an awakening, which perhaps Shinji should have acknowledged beforehand since Kaworu is quite literally sacrificing his own wellbeing to help Shinji. This is a direct contrast to the responsibility Shinji imposes on himself in the Final movie where he puts on the choker voluntarily to do battle with his father, with the possibility of his death. This is all rather unintentional but it does go along the whole theme of the series of 'why does Shinji pilot the Eva?' Is it better for him to rightfully give-up against struggles or accept his obligations knowing that there is a risk he might die. Its sort of a Catch-22 moment, where there is no right answer - any rational person would be 'willing to live forever, or die in the attempt'. But the story is set up in the deep analysis of Shinji configuring his purpose and perhaps growing in maturity when faced with difficult situations. As acknowledged in the previous comments, this perhaps was not handled as perfectly by Anno as intended, and I am not sure if this is all a life lesson Anno learnt himself during the production of the final movie.

Kaworu's reappearance as a hallucination serve as an interesting example of what Shinji is going through and can be interpreted in different ways. Has he actually become delusional and is now willing to commit dangerous actions in order to 'see him again', or is he thankful and reflective of the friendship, wisdom and sacrifice Kaworu provided. I think it is the latter, as it correlates with the death of Rei Q, a person who he only met for a short time but he nevertheless was able to derive some sense of support and faith from. In the end, Rei Q and Kaworu, as mystical characters who show up at the EoE to help guide Shinji's decisions, also serve some kind of divine intervention to direct Shinji in the right direction (although I would prefer Rei II). Watching Rebuild has greatly impacted my understanding of not giving up and trying hard at something because others believe in you, and that God is always there guiding our lives, which is why I am grateful for the message even if the delivery is rather convoluted.

"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me...Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus" Philippians 3:12-13

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Re: Shinji's personal development in Rebuild: zero to hero?

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Postby Leonaxzz » Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:24 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original PostSettie#933153 wrote:Finally, I don’t know if Anno recalls Shinji was just a 14-year-old boy?


Honestly, I feel Anno doesn't really consider or care that Shinji is a 14 years old.

Even when the story wants to defend or console Shinji for the N3I, his young age isn't used as a reason why he shouldn't be blamed.

For example: When Misato said she should be the one to be blamed for N3I and its consequences, she only mentioned that Shinji was his subordinate. However, Shinji's age isn't even hinted.


I would like to clarify it further, in fact, this has nothing to do with age.
Let's say piloting EVA to save humans is also not the duty of a 14-year-old kid, right? But we audiences will not blame it because we clearly see how Shinji had been trained and battled throughout the entire story, we can accept that Shinji piloting EVA and successfully defeating Angels is narratively logical.

So I'm not discussing what he should do but what he can do.

You do what you are capable of and do it well.
You don't need to and have no ability to accomplish what is out of your control.
If you want to do something beyond your own ability, make sure you already have enough learning and training for that.

However, have we ever seen Shinji been trained as a psychotherapist in the story?
Has Shinji ever truly understood the nature, mental state and background of Asuka? Has he learned about the lores of EVA, the Angels, and Impacts to prevent him from repeating the same mistakes again?
Moreover, has Nerv ever taught him how to play an omnipotent god? Or even to recreate the world and take charge of Instrumentality?
Yet Shinji not only completely took over this whole mission in the end, but also achieved it perfectly. Where did all this "advance" come from? There is a lack of clear and convincing presentation in the plot.
Toji became a doctor and Kensuke became a reliable adult because there are 14 years for them to grow up (and of course, these growing processes were also completely skipped from the screen in a lazy way, which we can only saw the final result).
But Shinji has experienced less than almost everyone in the story and he has always been treated and trained as an EVA pilot by Misato throughout the story, no other skills.
In Shin, we only saw how he got out of the pain and regained his strength (however, the plot was not handled well, I think i will discuss it more if I have time.)
So how can it convince us of Shinji's transition from zero to hero?

These parts have never been depicted well, but Anno tries to pretend that Shinji has already gained what can be interpretated as "growth", therefore I see it as out of character, or some kind of Deus ex machina.
Surely I am not saying that Shinji cannot do anything, for example, "reconciling" with Misato and confronting Gendo are definetely what he can do (but I think it lacks of foreshadowing and handled badly as well)
However, It's unreasonable that he can heal Asuka(who is twice as old as him and "takes care" of him like his mother)'s trauma and guide her how to live while Shinji's experience from the beginning to the end of the entire Rebuild story is less than a year.

Again, you don’t need to show your protagonist’s growth by making him a savior, especially when all of this comes out of nowhere.


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