I agree with most of this. In NGE, each new Angel that appeared had a sense of dread, not knowing what special fuckery it could perform, and it always subverted expectations, almost every fight gave the feeling they just prevailed by the skin of their teeth and thus emphasizing how much is at stake, how much the pilots are being put through. That way it felt realistic, not "just" a monster of the week (even tho it pretty much was). This is what I dislike about NTE, the importance of the angels is dropped pretty quick, we don't even get to see the last couple of angels. In NGE you didn't have to doubt purpose or goals, it was pretty much clearcut, stop the angels, or else! In NTE, they throw new mecha's at the good guys like it's nothing. Cannon fodder to get rid of, so what was the use? "The commander is testing us", oh, thats it? Like the Paris encounter, story-wise nothing would be different if there wasn't a battle. It just seems like wasted resources on the "bad guys". And then the same with the final confrontation, the millions of mass eva's, what was their use, really? Everything went as Gendo wanted anyway, none of the mass eva's units, 9, 10, 11 and 12, nor the ships (they blast the hell out of the wunder without any notable effect), none of em, posed any kind of real threat. Even 13 wasn't a threat in the end. As Gendo so blatantly put it that the fight was futile, I already had concluded that myself without him mentioning that.

I would have much more preferred it if the focus was kept on the angels as a threat. And only for the final confrontation, like EoE, it becoming human vs human battle. That way the appearance of a shitload of enemy eva's would actually have impact. But at that point we have seen so many mass produced enemies getting swatted away already, so why are we supposed to care for these battles other than looking fancy?

I guess it lost its sense of mystery, in NGE/EOE you had no idea how it would play out. Neither did the characters, they were never really prepared for anything, just had to make the best of each situation. The few moments before the harpies fight, you see Asuka calculate her odds and you as viewer just know theres a hell of a fight on its way. And then she starts kicking ass, feel yourself really rooting for her, making her loss in the end that much devastating.
In NTE, they come fully prepared, they know what they need to do, pulling miracles out their asses (like producing a new spear) as if its nothing. They know who they are fighting and surprises are easily overcome. So when Asuka does get eaten by 13, I felt nothing, if she at least could have kicked some ass in her angel form to feel the stakes a bit, but no, it was "nom" and oh, there goes Asuka.

I still like the movies for their lore and worldbuilding. I understand it's not meant to imitate NGE/EoE, but it does feel more like a caricature of it.
I guess you worded exactly what i was feeling, Axx°N N, that it more feels like game cutscenes followed by some action gameplay played at the easiest setting.

Sometimes I feel like the only Eva fan who truly loved the Rebuild movies. I hear the criticisms and I get it and I respect them, but I can't deny as a die-hard Eva fan who collected the VHS tapes way back in '98 (doesn't make my opinion any more valid than yours, btw), a gigantic film nerd, and someone who just likes cool stuff, that I can't even express how happy I am with the Rebuilds and what a miracle I believe it is that we got them at all and they're as good as they are. I think they work wonderfully as a stand alone series (I watched 3.0 + 1.0 with one person who ONLY watched the Rebuilds and she loved them and even had an intense emotional reaction to it, just as I did) and as a companion to NGE (of which I am extremely familiar). It tells its own story AND builds on themes from NGE, with little redundancy; a thematic sequel. (Whether it's literally a sequel is it's own debate, but I believe it doesn't actually matter). I can't even fathom how hard that was for Anno to write while weaving all those elements together in an entertaining way.

Artistically, it's unbelievable how it weaves in blockbuster and intimate storytelling. What other series would sit comfortably alongside Star Wars and The Seventh Seal simultaneously? Or can occupy the same space as James Cameron AND Jean-Luc Godard? It's mind boggling what a colossal achievement the Rebuild series is on an artistic level. I concede that NGE was more ground breaking but damn, I find it hard to complain when the follow up is this incredible.

I don't think the Rebuilds are perfect (3.0 in particular has stuff I don't like but there's stuff I'd change in all of them) but there's so much more good in them than bad that I just don't see the point in harping on the bad. Critiquing them is fine, and I don't want to discount anyone's opinions on it, but I guess its strange to me to encounter so much negativity on the movies when I love them so much. Oh well, such is life. I can go into it point by point if anyone actually wants to talk about it (respectfully, of course) but these are my overall feelings.

mastafishere wrote:Sometimes I feel like the only Eva fan who truly loved the Rebuild movies.

There are at least two of us.

I'd say they're certainly polarizing, but it's not a rarity to find people who like it at all. Most people I'd say like it well enough, they just don't think it's better than NGE+EoE, that's not too common. This also applies to one's stance towards treating them as sequels or even linked at all...

Then again, it's worth pointing out that this varies based on what kind of fan you are. Those of us that post on EGF are more hardcore fans, then there are more casual ones that you'd find on social media, and randos that'll only watch the movie because it is/was new, they'll all have different tendencies. Even so, NGE still eclipses NTE discussion. They're not bad at all, but I personally feel they don't really stand on their own. I remember Tines once said that if his first exposure to Eva was through Sadamoto's manga, he wouldn't really have gotten into Eva at all. I tend to think the same. It's not bad, it's just not that good. And over the last months I've gravitated to think of NTE a lot like I do with the manga - it has some cool ideas and questionable execution. It's another Eva continuity that's just kinda there at the end of the day. It's not as captivating or groundbreaking as NGE was. People wonder if Anno lost his edge, I don't really think so, he's still immensely talented, but perhaps there is an argument to be made regarding how much he was into it or if his mindset wasn't right for it anymore. I'm personally still very interested in the movie's and the quadrilogy's production history, which we'll still have much to dig into as the 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 CRCs release.

Interestingly enough, I still rarely see "NTE only" fans. If anything, people that start with NTE only get more interested in watching NGE when they realize NTE is not just a remaster of NGE. Then again, this was how things were in the pre-Shin era when all you were left with was 3.0's inconclusive and frustrating ending. Perhaps Shin would make people not as thirsty for more Eva, but I'm not quite sure, you'd expect that from EoE all the way back in '97 and that never happened. I even know of some veteran members that did drop Eva for a year or two after EoE and eventually returned, hehe. I never found a single "manga only" fan, for that matter, so maybe neither NTE nor the manga keep most people from getting into NGE itself.

nerv bae wrote:

mastafishere#932986 wrote:Sometimes I feel like the only Eva fan who truly loved the Rebuild movies.

There are at least two of us.

Make that 3.33.

WunderBah wrote:

nerv bae#932987 wrote:There are at least two of us.

Make that 3.33.

Now, we are 3.0+1.0

How unfortunate that we can (not) go past 4.

Zoop wrote:I understand it's not meant to imitate NGE/EoE, but it does feel more like a caricature of it.

Pretty funny that you say that, because I had similar thoughts last night.

Up front, let me state that I do think that NTE has artistic validity, and that the lore/mysticism it brings to the table is much more intricate and well crafted than NGE. It seems like more attention was payed to the mysticism than to the "story". I don't buy any arguments that NTE was made only to make money. Of course, making money was part of the reason why it was made, but that goes for any piece of commercial art; artists need to live, too. If money-making was the sole purpose, there were better ways to go about it. In general, I don't buy any arguments which state that "NTE was only meant to be X, nothing else" - those didn't work for NGE, and they don't work for NTE. So no, NTE isn't only a weird meta-comment by Anno on how he met his wife, or something. That's just silly reductionism.

That said, I had to think about the Anime Expo animation, specifically the "NOT and ANTI" bit. Because the more I think about it, Shin is the Anti-EoE. The next part will be heavy on broad-strokes arguments and meta-heavy statements, contrary to what I usually do, so keep that in mind: I'm describing my gut feelings, not making especially watertight or objective arguments, and I don't claim to have it figured all out, either.

So, what do I mean by Anti-EoE? EoE, as a follow up to EoTV, operated along similar lines to the first ending we got to NGE. Ignoring the narrative for a moment, it boiled down to "Characters are confronted with questions and "truths" about themselves, and in the end, realized something about themselves on their own." To give an example: Shinji asks "Is it okay to be me?", and is only answered by silence: he has to find the answer himself. And he does find it, in the end: he chooses to live on, and wants to at least try to figure out if it is indeed okay for him to be here. By extension, the same question is of course posed to the audience: "What do you want to do?", and no answer is provided. EoE, heavy on misunderstanding and conflict, ends on a conciliatory note: despite massive differences, an understanding is reached between Shinji and Asuka, who are, by extension, audience insert, so, the Self, and the outside world: the Other. Starting off lying side by side, they end up facing each other. They look eye to eye, quite literally. They recognize each other with a great deal of intimacy - doesn't get much more intimate than strangling somebody, looking into their eyes and crying on their chest. The scene is a condensed restatement of the Hedgehog's Dilemma: we want to be close to one another, but it hurts, or has the potential to hurt, but without that, there's no potential for anything good, either.

Shin, meanwhile, feels like an ironic counterpoint to that. To stay with the beach scene for a bit: the characters start off facing each other. Then they make it clear that they're not really interested in communicating with each other: only one of them talks, while the other turns away and curls up in a defensive gesture. The distance grows. Instead of confronting each other, they shut each other out and say goodbye. Even Mari, while facing Asuka, is portrayed upside down: there's a disconnect between the two. And then the distance grows even more, because Asuka is ejected and removed from the scene. Next time we see her, she's staring at her phone, and Shinji is looking at Rei and Kaworu talking from a distance.

But even before that, there's a fundamental difference to how conflict is handled in Shin. Contrary to being asked questions, and having to find the answers themselves, the characters are simply told what to do. "Are you feeling lonely? Go to KenKen! Don't know what to do with your life, now that you can't singlemindedly focus on one person? Plow the feels with Katsuragi! Want to stay in this dreamworld? No, go outside, find some place to live." Shinji is the Saviour handing out advice: he doesn't have to learn anything; he already did "in the real world." He doesn't wish for anything, either: he's more concerned with "helping" the others. He resolves other character's conflicts form them. So while EoE was saying "You have to think for yourself!", Shin seems to be saying: "Don't worry about it, somebody else will solve your problems for you." That even goes for Shinji himself: "You need to sacrifice something to achieve your goals? Nah, Mother will take on your burden for you! Don't know how to get out of Negative Space? Don't worry, Mari will come and get you, wherever you are. Just sit on the beach and wait, and the problem will solve itself."

The most comedic part of the movie has to be the resolution of the conflict between Wille and Shinji: Wille was shown to have a consistent and deep-seated grudge against Shinji. One and a half movies were spent on detailing just how deep the mistrust runs; great emphasis is put on the gravity of Shinji's mistakes, and the stakes are incredibly high. The conflict is built up more and more, the tangled web of conflicting emotions gets almost overwhelming, and then - it simply evaporates. "I take responsibility for Shinji's actions", Misato says, and just like that, Wille do a complete 180 in their attitude. Sakura breaks down in a histrionic fit, while Shinji looks at her with enlightened detachment: "You are a destroyer and a benefactor!", she screams under tears, stricken by religious rapture when faced with the enlightened Shinji H. Christ, while the camera gives us a lingering shot of her ass bouncing off the floor as she sinks down onto a metaphorical Shinji-dildo. The only thing missing from the scene is the Benny Hill Theme playing on full blast.

For the rest of the movie, Wille behaves like your typical Anime crew: "We'll give it our all, for Ikari's sake!" "That's the problem with young men", Maya says while smiling, overwhelmed by the cooperation and friendship of her crew, a 180 from her previous position. Instead of conflict, there's suddenly only harmony, and instead of shared responsibility, responsibility gets handed up the ladder, until everything rests on one individual who will solve everything: the Wille crew entrusts Misato with handling things from here on out, and Misato in turn hands over the reins to Shinji. "We're out of ideas kid, you take it from here! We believe in you! You're the main protagonist, after all!"

In general, the movie seems to be asking: "Problems? Which problems?" Gendo spells it out: "Violence won't resolve our conflict" - the fights are completely pointless, and they feel like it, too. Ironically he says so while he's fighting Shinji. And like all the other fights, it's a completely one-sided affair: 13 just curbstomps 01. Neo-Nerv has millions of Evas at their disposal. Do they do anything? Nope. Asuka goes all out, recklessly powering up like never seen before - does it have any effect? Nope. Wille faces the insurmountable problem of having no way to influence what happens in Negative Space: they don't know how to get there, they have no resources left. Except that it turns out to not have been a problem at all: Mari can play Taxi service. Misato asks Ritsuko to do the impossible, and she does. Nothing is impossible if you believe in Human Will, and the power of faith.

That's how all conflicts are resolved in the latter half of the movie: Gendo spent half his life pursuing a single goal, sacrificing everything to get there; he sacrificed the whole world, in fact. He trampled on countless lifes without any remorse; just minutes ago he ritualistically sacrificed Asuka. He's invulnerable: he made himself a literal God. He's a twenty-six-dimensional chess player, every single situation in the movie is a Xanathos Gambit serving his goals; there's litereally no way left to beat him. Until, of course, he's confronted with the Divine Saviour's presence: he pops his ATF, and realizes "Oh, wow, I was wrong all along! Huh, guess that's that, then, thanks Shinji!" He's handed his S-DAT, and steps off the train, like the little boy he is, and that's that. Well, that was kinda easy. Who would've thunk that all it took was a bit of talking? Shame nobody thought of that in the 28 previous years, would have saved everybody a lot of trouble. And he's rewarded, in the end: he gets to reunite with Yui, and she accepts him without any questions asked, now that he was nice to Shinji. There are no negative consequences for his utterly monstrous behaviour at all: it's implied that Yui and him commit lover's suicide and go to heaven afterwards.

The pattern continues with Asuka: we already spent two movies exploring the struggles she faces, and Shin treats us to a flashback making her already sad story even sadder and darker, adding even more hardship to the considerable amount we already saw her go through: turns out that her whole life was one big ball of misery. She's had to fight a Battle Royale against her sisters; she wasn't treated like a human being from the start. It's just like Soryu, but turned up to 11 on steroids. Shikinami's life is literal hell: she's lonely and traumatized and broken. The solution? Single pat on the head.

Kaworu spent his whole existence trying to fix things, and his past mistakes; he wrote Shinji's name in the book of life, beside his own, binding them together for all of eternity by fate. He's ancient, and has experienced countless iterations of the same thing happening over and over again. Until Kaji asks: "Hm, why not, uh, do like ... anything else?" And Kaworu's all like: "Huh, yeah, right! Thank's man!"

Rei spent the last 14 years trapped inside Unit 01: her goal was to make it so that Shinji doesn't have to pilot. That's a considerable commitment. Until Shinji comes along and says "I'd like to pilot, please." And she just lets him. Is she angry or disappointed that she wasted her time? Nope. Her resolution: "Hey, Rei, why don't you, like, not make your life revolve around me and Eva?" "Oh, I see - thank's, Ikari-kun, I'll just do that instead!" And in the blink of an eye, her long hair disappears and she's back to her normal bob-cut, visually underlying how her conflict is resolved in an instant.

Mari of course had no conflict to resolve to being with, and we're told that Shinji already solved his conflict, long before the ending and off-screen.

So what about Misato? She had to sacrifice her life to make the ending possible, right? Well, yes, but that's no problem: she'll be brought back to life, just like everybody else. And contrary to EoE, where she'd have to find her lost sense of self and decide on her own to return, there's no indication that she'll have to do anything of the sort. Her sacrifice cost her nothing, in the end. In addition, she will return to a world that's fixed. Because as it turns out, the problem wasn't the human heart after all: it was Eva. And with the removal of Eva, there'll be no more hardship in the future. Where EoE said "As long as you have the will to live, everywhere can be paradise", Shin says: "As long as there's no Eva, you will find happiness!" So, if you're facing hardship in your life, the solution is simple: don't look towards yourself. Identify something external to blame all your problems on, and wish it out of existence. And if that doesn't work, sit on a beach for a while, and a magic dream girl might just come and get you. And if there's no magic dream girl (or boy) waiting for you, then there'll be a Saviour who'll fix the world on your behalf. Like Superman, or Iron Man, or Elon Musk. All you have to do is believe in them. Trust me: they know what's best for you, better than you do. There's absolutely no need to find your own answers, or do anything by yourself. Just relax, and go back to sleep.

EoE said: "Life is an incredibly complex problem, and there are no easy solutions. You will have to take responsibility for your own happiness, and you will have to live with the consequences of your actions."

Shin says: "There are no complex problems, only easy solutions. Other people will take care of your happiness for you, and your actions won't have any negative consequences."

Or does it? Rethorical question is rethorical, so my answer is obviously "no" - I think we're dealing with a work which is steeped in irony. So much so that the actual story suffers for it, because it's far too easy to simply take everything at face value, which makes the characters look flat and nonsensical, and the plot like an incoherent mess without any stakes, rhyme or reason. Which is why there are so many people claiming that NTE only makes sense as some weird Meta-Narrative, and that most of it is simply devoid of any meaning at all. Don't get me wrong: the plot is nonsensical at times, and character interactions are severly lacking when compared to NGE. Most of the characters feel like worse versions of their NGE counterparts (in the sense that they are worse people), which is, ironically, a consequence of Mari's inclusion, but I digress. NTE!Gendo will continue to feel like a parody of NGE!Gendo; over the top action scenes will continue to feel over the top. And nothing will ever make CGI-GNR not look hilariously bad and out of place. None of that will fundamentally change, even if you take the lore and myth and its cyclical nature seriously, which I consider to be a serious flaw of NTE. NGE's story worked much better taken at face value, and it's a shame that Anno couldn't repeat that with NTE, or recreate the raw impact it had.

That said, I think that a closer exploration of NTE and it's themes is still worthwhile. Just like NGE before it, NTE is, in part, also commenting on the society and media landscape surrounding its creation. It is, in fact, a product of it, like any work of art. Japanese society is facing serious problems, like declining birthrates, extremely low workplace satisfaction and high levels of burnout, exhaustion, loneliness and suicide - and yet, Shin Eva seems to embrace the status Quo in the end, in favour of the alternative model of the Third Village, when Shinji becomes a salaryman (or something similar). There's still a severe lack of awareness and understanding of mental illness in Japan - so of course, all the traumatized, broken characters of NTE have all their problem solved by the most simple, bog standard solutions. "Doctor, I'm severely depressed. I don't think I can go on, and I don't know any way out." "Hm ... I think you should try to be more happy." "Oh - thank you, doctor! I feel much better now!" Humanity as a whole is facing severe ecological and economical hardships in the near future, and yet, Shin ends on a view of the industrial town of Ube, which is supposedly the "Neon Genesis", the better, fixed worled.

And what's dominating pop-culture right now? Isekai shows and Superhero movies. So of course we get Isekai Superhero Protagonist Shinji saving the world from Evil Supervillain Gendo. But the question is: is that trope played straight, or are we dealing with a subversion? Is Anno perhaps making an ironic comment on how silly it is to believe in saviour figures, or place our trust in exceptional individuals who will solve our problems for us? How dangerous it is to fall for a personality cult? How childish it is to believe that you can simply wish your problems away, and rewrite the world to one of your liking? Is the fact that Shinji goes from immature, good for nothing brat to enlightened and flawless saviour in the span of a few minutes probably meant to point out how ridiculous the notion of perfect, flawless saviours existing in the first place is? Is his questionable behaviour regarding Asuka maybe meant to lampshade the fact that he is, in fact, not perfectly wise or utterly selfless and good and infallible? You know, like any human being? Is his infantilization of Asuka, and his choice to play the role of a parental figure, maybe meant to comment on how parenthood always involves making decision on your children's behalf, and how easy it is to get things wrong? Something which we saw with all the parental figures in Eva so far?

Or in short: is Anno maybe holding up a mirror to current society by showing it exactly what it wants to see?

Whatever the case, I'm certain that what's going on beneath the surface (the lore and mysticism) is a lot more coherent and well thought out than it appears to be, and understanding it helps a great deal with informing our understanding of the characters, and why they behave the way they do. Contrary to the popular belief that the lore and the plot is mere window-dressing, I'm pretty convinced that it's the other way around and that Anno was trying to create something which is much more profound than a mere comment on currently relevant issues or his personal goodbye message to Eva. It certainly seems like he spent his effort mostly on the lore, not the story. NGE tried to explore the existential core of the human interactions, and it succeeded masterfully in the Beach Scene of EoE. NTE similarly seems to try and express some fundamental truth about the human condition, and if there's one serious flaw with it, it's that Anno makes things in the background more hidden than they need to be, and didn't manage to tell as compelling a "foreground" story as he did with NGE.

^ My cynicism makes me lean towards it being played straight and the lore and worldbuilding being window dressing. 1996 Anno was in a different world than 2020 Anno, i mean the final shot of TuaT being an idealized version of Annos hometown doesn't leave a whole lot of room for interpretation. Shin Godzilla also wasn't exactly subtle in what it was trying to say either, and that was also an Anno baby.

Edit:The way i see these two different works sharing the same name is In essence, NGE+EOE was Anno saying find your (the audience) truth and NTE was anno saying my (his own) truth.

mastafishere wrote:Or can occupy the same space as James Cameron AND Jean-Luc Godard?

Not to undercut you or undermine your view, but I just want to offer my alternate POV.

A good art film knows how to take its time (see: Tarkovsky) and a good mainstream film also has a sense of pacing and narrative economy (see: John Carpenter), and I just don't see anything of intellectual or entertainment value in NTE that wasn't done with more gravitas and patience in the original. That's the start and stop of it for me.

To be cynical, I don't have in my head the free association to consider it on the tier of either art or entertainment, but more of profit motive. It doesn't exist in some kind of passion play vacuum; in absence of the monumental financial success of the brand, does anyone think Anno would have naturally worked on more Eva? When I think of Alien, I think of an original film. When I think of Aliens, I think of a sequel that doesn't need to exist but justifies its existence. When I think of Alien 3 & 4, that's kind of the feeling NTE gives me.

I don't hate all of NTE. I like many of the designs, there's genuine talent involved on the animation side, and in its best moments it does have handle on tone and pathos (for me, almost entirely relegated to 1.0 and 3.0). But mostly, the only thing I get out of it that comes close to being compelled or induced to deeper thought is trying to express what ways it didn't work for me and to figure out why, which is the exact antithesis to what my relationship was with the original. For instance, only in writing this comment have I thought of it in this way: the original, a confirmed and documented mess behind the scenes, somehow managed to hit it out of the park. Perhaps exemplifying the "lightning in a bottle" idiom, NTE, a confirmed and documented mess behind the scenes, somehow manages to drop the ball even though it was on the tee.

Even in terms of analysis & discussion, NGE & EoE felt like you could sincerely and genuinely fold in thoughts about the world and the human condition, from mysticism to politics, and enliven some kind of appreciation. It felt kaleidoscopic and extensive. But the rhetoric around NTE seems entirely solipsistic, cut-off, impersonal. So many things feel totally obsolete, unimportant, misguided if one even thinks to bring them up. Which is no wonder, because NTE feels like a no man's land where the meaning and message and conclusions can only be relevant when applied to Anno, as if the films exist and operate only as a justification for his making the films. Many positive takes I see hinge on the idea that because characters got wholesome ends, it's reason enough to take NTE as final and authoritative, which is, as a conceit, extra-narrative, completey outside the actual in-narrative story. So the story is actually "Anno revises things to give the characters better coutcomes," Shinji et al having turned paradoxically somewhat irrelevant. Discussion can really only boil down to an Agree, Disagree on the film's outcome, because it shuts out much and invites little else, or tinkering around with the vague lore mechanics, which are themselves also completely insular, and at no point seem to have any effect in elevating or devaluing the storytelling and directorial decisions as storytelling and directorial decisions.

As an Eva fan, it's still interesting to explore NTE. It's just that I find it impossible to do so without it becoming storytelling critique and trying to express my bafflement or non-reaction.

Axx°N N. wrote:Even in terms of analysis & discussion, NGE & EoE felt like you could sincerely and genuinely fold in thoughts about the world and the human condition, from mysticism to politics, and enliven some kind of appreciation. It felt kaleidoscopic and extensive. But the rhetoric around NTE seems entirely solipsistic, cut-off, impersonal.

I appreciate your response, as it was well-argued and respectful. I hate to be all film snob about this so I'm just going to say that, as films, I think they are brilliantly paced and have plenty of gravitas. That's a big part of my "best of both worlds" thesis from my initial post but you obviously disagree. Instead, I'm going to differ to what Todd said at the end of Bojack Horseman, "Isn't the point of art less about what people put into it and more about what people get out of it." I can't pretend that I haven't gotten a lot out of NTE, especially the last one though all 3.0 + 1.0 are incredibly insightful to me, so on that basis alone I can't agree with you. You're talking about the online conversation surrounding this movie and I'm talking about my personal experience, of which I was profoundly affected. I can go on and on about how beautiful I think their message is and how artfully it was done but ultimately it's a deeply personal experience and maybe I'll just leave it at that.

As I said in my initial post, seeing the the discourse surrounding NTE makes me feel like the only Eva fan who actually loved these movies! I really wish y'all loved them and appreciated them as much as I do but that's okay.

Axx°N N. wrote: I just don't see anything of intellectual or entertainment value in NTE that wasn't done with more gravitas and patience in the original. That's the start and stop of it for me.

The way this is worded comes across to me like you're saying NTE is wholly redundant of NGE and I just don't feel that's the case. While there's thematic and structural similarities, I think the two works have different things to say and go about them in different ways. NTE, and its ending especially, hit me hard every step of the way. To me, the comparison to NGE doesn't sit right because they're accomplishing different things and both do them masterfully. I love NGE with all my heart but I wonder how much of it would resonate to me now, 24 years after I first watched it. I'd probably still appreciate all its artistry but maybe it wouldn't affect me as much? Who knows. In short, both NGE and NTE were exactly what I needed at the time of my life when I found them.

I hope I'm reciprocating the same respect you showed me. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm trying to show you respect with meaningful engagement. I'm not trying to argue with you or change your mind or anything like that!

Derantor wrote:

Zoop#932978 wrote:I understand it's not meant to imitate NGE/EoE, but it does feel more like a caricature of it.

Pretty funny that you say that, because I had similar thoughts last night.

You know an interesting concept that was cut from The of Evangelion is there was a scene that showed a world without evas and where Shinji did not exist. and the eva characters weren't really happy. Asuka had a relationship with touji that was basically Misato / Kaji 2.0 (in Misato's words they fucked like rabbits after every fight). Misato was single and her parents wanted to pressure her into an arranged marriage and those were the examples we had of the characters' lives, eva was certainly an important part of why they suffered in NGE but it was not the only and simple origin of everything that it was wrong with the world and that it was only causing the characters to suffer.

mastafishere wrote:I'm trying to show you respect with meaningful engagement. I'm not trying to argue with you or change your mind or anything like that!

The diplomacy is appreciated! Your post was well-stated, so naturally it felt like it was helping me clarify my own thoughts.

I think the redundancy I feel is somewhat specific. I agree that NTE has its own tone and message and in that way it's categorically not redundant--but while the original feels like it really develops its themes and executes them, I feel as if NTE rushes through them or goes through the motions with them. So, while I think there are some outright redundancies, there's also things like Gendo getting far more of a redemption and actually engaging with Shinji, which is clearly new--but because I feel like those scenes are overly expository, more telling than showing, and that the characterization feels off, I feel as if the difference doesn't come out coherent. Or to put it another way, that the concept on paper is a major difference from NGE and something I can theoretically see working out in practice, but in the final product prevented it from living up to its intention.

It's funny though, lately I've settled into the opinion that my problem with NTE can best be expressed through waxing on about its pacing (or from my POV, its lack thereof), so it's interesting you disagree on something I feel is more objective than subjective. I suppose that our interactions with the material are personal even down to technicalities. It makes me wonder if something extremely specific like narrative slowness is in the end also determined by the reader's psychological reaction to everything else. I guess that's proven anyway when two people watch a film with more glacial than usual pacing and one finds it boring and the other finds it compelling--a difference I've been on either end of at different points.

mastafishere wrote:That's a big part of my "best of both worlds" thesis from my initial post but you obviously disagree. Instead, I'm going to differ to what Todd said at the end of Bojack Horseman, "Isn't the point of art less about what people put into it and more about what people get out of it." I can't pretend that I haven't gotten a lot out of NTE, especially the last one though all 3.0 + 1.0 are incredibly insightful to me, so on that basis alone I can't agree with you.

Axx°N N. wrote:I feel like those scenes are overly expository, more telling than showing, and that the characterization feels off, I feel as if the difference doesn't come out coherent. Or to put it another way, that the concept on paper is a major difference from NGE and something I can theoretically see working out in practice, but in the final product prevented it from living up to its intention.

It's funny though, lately I've settled into the opinion that my problem with NTE can best be expressed through waxing on about its pacing (or from my POV, its lack thereof), so it's interesting you disagree on something I feel is more objective than subjective.

I think that watching Eva really does require both objective and subjective levels of appreciation. I really connected with the meaning of the Rebuild ending, which has really impacted my perceptions even to this day. However, I felt like I could see Anno's sleight of hand in how these ideas were presented, even to the point where I thought Gendo was pretty much babbling Anno's personal feelings at the ending. The end of Evangelion was more symbolic and I got that intangible feeling of resolution and emotional connection without needing so much exposition.

"Artistic validity", lmao, wonder what I was on when I came up with that. For the me right now, seems like a stupid thing to ask about.

Anyway, my final say on NTE (which I guess should go here?) is that it's neither as bad as its detractors insist nor as good as its supporters think. A lot of Anno's talent comes across well (mostly his visual eye and talent with atmosphere and tone, which are as strong and magnificent as ever) and there's a few ingenious creative decisions (the whiplash from Ha to Q, the village sequence in Shin, the basic message of Shin's final scenes and especially the ending, the relationship between Kaworu and Shinji) along with some stretches that are up there with the very best of NGE and EoE (the village scene, most of the final 25 minutes of Shin and especially the middle part of Q are wonderful). It's also an incredibly conclusive ending for better or worse. It really does tie most everything about Eva, its nature and impact up and it's hard to see where anyone would go from here. That said, there's also problems-it's a messy series, in retrospect it's clear it doesn't fully know what it wants to be, the fanservice and too-long-by-half CGI action scenes (not the one at the end of Q, I like that for its almost deliberate chaotic meaninglessness) become more and more irritating as time goes on and I'd even argue they cheapen the series as a whole because they're basically against its main thesis of "growing up, moving on, not being escapist", there's some other weird decisions (Shinji became better far too quickly and there's no clear discernment when he goes from a character to a piece on the chessboard; he comes across as making decisions for others simply imagining they'd be alright with it, which they are, but that's not the point; Misato seems to almost excuse Shinji's wrongdoings which goes against a lot of the other ideas expressed in the series; there's a bit too emphasis on lore and even though I think mostly the lore's ultimate lack of a point is the point, there's still a bit too much of it).

Overall, it's a fine supplement to the original and in a way I'm glad it exists. It is, however, also undeniably flawed in a lot of ways.

Zusuchan wrote:"Artistic validity", lmao, wonder what I was on when I came up with that.

First time someone made me laugh so hard in these boards in a long time XD

Zusuchan wrote:Anyway, my final say on NTE (which I guess should go here?) is that it's neither as bad as its detractors insist nor as good as its supporters think.

This pretty much synthesizes my thoughts on it as well. It isn't necessarily horrible, but it isn't great either. It is what it is. It's flawed, but it's what Anno and his crew wanted to do. It's the reflection of what they became after finishing EOE and moving on with their lives. At least they were not forcing themselves to create something as if they were the same people who crafted NGE in the 90s. I mean, they kind of tried in the first movie, but that was set up.
These movies lack in most of what I loved about EVA and the best parts of them, in my opinion, are the ones which tie back to the original series, thematically or visually. The fun for me comes from the subversions introduced in each film. Other than that, they exist and I'm fine with that.

Ok then, it’s official. There are only four people here who actually like NTE out of everyone else. Artistic validity comes from people who are willing to see and appreciate the artistic value of which there are so few. So by logic,there is little to no artistic validity of NTE and it is therefore conceptually bad. Spread the word

Axx°N N. wrote:
there's also things like Gendo getting far more of a redemption and actually engaging with Shinji, which is clearly new

To me, the "redemption" of Gendo in NTE is a far worse depiction, just like Anno's prejudiced sympathy for this character, so that it becomes the creator's self-satisfaction.
The reason? is Rei.

I remember Gendo and Yui once said: If their baby is a boy, then his name will be Shinji; if is a girl, then her name would be Rei.
Gendo created Rei with Yui’s genes and named her after their daughter.
In my opinion, to Gendo, Rei should be no different from Shinji: they are both Gendo(and Yui)’s children ( yet who were all used by Gendo as a tool to achieve his goal).

However, 3.0+1.0 only focuses on the relationship between Shinji and Gendo, but doesn’t even care about Rei.
You can see how Gendo tried so hard to find Yui's ghost from Rei's body but failed, and in the end, Gendo discarded Rei like rubbish.
Then we see he treated Shinji completely differently, apologized to his son, and finally he got the reward he desired: Yui.
And what about Rei? No apology, not even a word.

So how can they convince me that Gendo is sincerely repenting for what he has done?
His apology to Shinji is likely because that he saw his young "self" from his son, and more importantly, because he could see Yui in Shinji, not in Rei.
So that makes me seriously doubt whether Gendo really feels sorry or guilt for his "son". Alter all, almost his entire "confessing" scene is just talking his personal issues, did he really care his son(or daughter)?
In the end, Gendo still only has Yui in his mind, whoever can help him see Yui again, he will definetely do as he said , or treat him well.

In NGE, at least Gendo was finally betrayed by Rei for his selfishness, and received retribution.
However, he did much more "things" to Rei in NTE, and ironically he could get what is called "redemption".

Leonaxzz wrote:However, he did much more "things" to Rei in NTE, and ironically he could get what is called "redemption".

Should be noted that Gendo's treatment of Rei II in NTE cuts out a lot of his worst moments, so in a way he has less to atone for. In NTE he was actually going to entertain her dinner party idea (treating her like a person... even if slightly.)

In NGE he ejects Unit 00's arm with no nerve disconnect in the fight with Bardiel which causes what appears to be incapacitating pain. This is the only time Rei's wellbeing is his direct responsibility.

Judging by the decor of Fyutsuki's office, sometime after Rei II his emotional attachment to further clones seems to have waned. Fyutsuki speculates that Gendo intended for Rei Q to Tang, but I don't think we get a confirmation.

If anyone comes out looking bad, Fyutsuki went from a kindly man who stood with his team to the bitter end and mourned Rei II... in NTE he's mass manufacturing evil evas and appears to be able to deploy angels.

Did I miss a scene where Gendo is a jerk to Rei in NTE?

Looks like those where Just angel shaped Evas --Ed

Leonaxzz wrote:To me, the "redemption" of Gendo in NTE is a far worse depiction, just like Anno's prejudiced sympathy for this character, so that it becomes the creator's self-satisfaction.

I don't disagree. Many things in NTE feel like they're memory-holed, or that the calculus just ignores certain factors. NTE feels like it's striving to get to an agreeable conclusion, and at certain moments it has all the appearances of a persuasive argument, but it can only get there by turning a blind eye and casting characters aside and hoping you don't notice. That's how it feels to me, anyway, and your post is spot-on in regards to Rei. I've said it many times regarding Gendo in NTE: yes, he didn't have a heart to heart and a hug with Shinji in the old material, but the omission of that was much more interesting to me than its inclusion. Everything about where Gendo ends up in EoE feels organic and justified. Not so with NTE.

Edit: Typo