(We had an aside this week in the Q manga topic linked above; now I'm back in this topic.)
Some responses
on Derantor's interpretation of visual evidence:
Derantor wrote:Shinji can not have his all-encompassing, uncontradicted goodbye scene if one of the characters refuses to let go of Eva. It would not really be the closure he wants if Asuka speaks up: "What are you, stupid? I already found my place! Eva is the only place I belong! Sure, KenKen is a nice guy, but haven't you seen how I smiled when he told me that Wunder is coming, which means I get to pilot again? Haven't you seen how I stared longingly into the sky, hoping for Wunder's return? Haven't you seen how happy I was when I was in that one place where I belonged? Why do I have to give that up? I don't care if you want to quit piloting, you can do that all you want! Say goodbye to Eva, but leave me alone!"
Derantor wrote:And even if she is: why put on an act when nobody is watching, for example during the Wunder launch? Why is she shown smiling when Kensuke and her talk about the Wunder picking her up, instead of being unhappy about being forced to do something she hates once more? Why is she shown staring longingly into the sky, waiting for Wunder, when piloting and Eva and not being able to lead a normal life is the source of her unhappiness, ... [I continue this quote a few sections below]
I don't accept that Asuka is staring longingly at the sky waiting for Wunder in this frame, which I think must be the one referenced:
The village has a handful of watchtowers, including this one with dishes over Kenken's home. In my understanding watchtowers are places to look out for threats, and showing Asuka on a watchtower is more consistent with her self-ascribed role of village protector than it is with watching hopefully for Wunder (which radios ahead anyway, so its appearance shouldn't come as a surprise to be watched out for). And if the Wunder is such a joy to Asuka, why show her frowning upon its actual arrival?
Kenken pans his video camera from the Wunder in the sky, to the civilians disembarking on the ground, to Asuka taking in the whole scene while looking utterly sullen. An instant later she will realize she is being filmed and get irritated, but in this frame we have an honest visual depiction of how she feels upon Wunder's arrival. This is not consistent with a yearning to get back aboard and into the pilot's seat.
Earlier, we do see Asuka's smile after Kenken reports that Wunder has radioed ahead its arrival:
But, significantly, we don't see this smile right after that precise line of dialog. We see it a few lines later:
Shin wrote:Kensuke: Sounds like the Wunder will swing by for a pickup tomorrow.
Kensuke: We've discussed the return route.
Kensuke: I agreed to document the village for Misato-san.
Kensuke: There are photos of the crew's families, too.
Kensuke: Also, here's a letter from Toji for his sister.
Kensuke: "Hope things go well", or along those lines.
Asuka: You got it.
<- SMILE!
What's happening here? Does Asuka smile at Kenken's Wunder announcement? No, she smiles later, after her father figure gives her some happy chores to help the villagers. This isn't a pilot itching to get back in the entry plug, but a daughter pleased to be of use to her community. But not, as you assert, a community that accepts her ... despite her wish to be human.
On what Asuka wants:Focusing in on Person A versus Person B now:
nerv bae wrote:Let's see, next, leaving aside again whether Asuka is speaking in a childlike state or impulsively, I reach your Person A and B construct where you make the following assertion:
Derantor wrote:Both people want a place where they can belong. But: Person A wants a place which caters to the majority, while Person B wants a place which is accepting of minorities. Or in other words: Person A wants to fit in, while Person B wants to be themselves.
The point is: just because Asuka says "I want a place to belong", we don't know whether she wishes to be like everybody else or wishes to be able to be herself. "She is directly appealing to Shinji, God of instrumentality, to give her a normal life" does not logically follow from "I want a place to belong".
Okay, I will admit this in light of your construct. Shinji cannot resolve the ambiguity in Asuka's request unless he knows whether she's Person A or B. Shinji makes a Person A choice on Asuka's behalf while you present decent evidence that, actually, Asuka is Person B which in the context of NTE means she's an Eva (not a popular theory, as I understand it) or she's actually the ninth angel (not written up in your reply, but I think a relatively popular theory) or she is otherwise superhuman / superlilin (which is arguably true about all the pilots: witness Asuka's super-punch, Rei6's telepathy, Shinji's glowing eyes and harness ripping, etc.; all apparently caused by excessive plug depth). Sure, any of these Persons B might not be well served by Shinji's Person A go-to-Kenken choice, but I just don't think it's a total slam dunk: instead, if I sat here for a few hours I think I could write up a counterargument that no, in fact, Asuka is Person A based different evidence, or different interpretations of the evidence you've presented (for example, I don't agree with your interpretation of Asuka's smile when Kenken tells her the Wunder is en route). At this moment, I'm thinking that even if Asuka is downgraded in NTE and doesn't play a big part, there is still a lot of room on each side of the Person A and B topic to make good arguments.
Per the above quote, in the section above I've been grinding away at different interpretations of some of your evidence, and now I'm going to present some different evidence, both efforts in service of my thesis that Asuka is actually Person A. Not sure if this is quite congruent with your majority / minority formulation, but I'm going to work towards Person A being a normal human in a world without Eva, and Person B being 1) an normal human piloting Eva, 2) a curse-of-Eva'd person piloting Eva, 3) an Adams soul, capable of radiant gianting, in any kind of person in a world with Eva, 4) a ninth Angel, any combination of 1 through 4, or any additional pre-Impact iteration of Asuka that can no longer exist in Shinji's chosen world without Eva. Again, I'm not aligning these categories with majority / minority concepts but maybe they'll work here; if they don't please give me a do-over.
All of your visual evidence that Asuka is happy piloting is valid, but she begins to grow past identifying only as a pilot in Ha. Here's Misato and Asuka's gondola phone call per the
EG translation, with my transcription of some of the Prime subtitles added in brackets:
Ha wrote:Misato A direct line? It must be Asuka.
Misato: What's wrong, Asuka? We have the test soon.
Asuka: I just wanted the two of us to chat, Misato.
Misato: Well, I never thanked you for before so, thank you.
Asuka: Thanking me is fine.
Asuka: It's my duty to help protect the ignorant masses since I'm an elite pilot.
Asuka: At first I didn't want to go to that dinner...
Asuka: Being with other people is fun, but it wears me out.
Asuka: I don't like to see other people happy but I like piloting Eva.
Asuka: I've always liked being alone, and I never needed close friends.
Asuka:
Since the beginning, I've never had someone take care of me properly. [And nobody's ever seen me for who I really am.]
Asuka: At first, I felt that being the top pilot at Nerv meant I could go to that dinner. [As long as I get top scores, I should be fine at NERV.]
Asuka:
But now, I realize it's good to be around other people. [But you know, I'm learning that being with others isn't so bad.]Asuka: Although it seems like I can't fit in. [It must sound strange coming from me.]
Misato: That's not true. [Not at all.]
Misato: You're a nice person, Asuka. [You're a sweet kid, Asuka.]
Asuka: I think this is the first time I've felt comfortable talking with you, Misato. [You're the first person that I've ever talked to like this.]
Asuka:
I had no idea it could feel so good to get this off my chest. [I feel better somehow. Talking to people feels good, doesn't it? I never knew.]Misato: This world is full of interesting things you need to learn.
Misato: You should have fun.
Asuka: Yeah. You're right. Thanks, Misato. [Sure, I will. Thank you, Misato.]
It's crazy to me how different the translations are, but fortunately I can make this point with only the second and third bolded full-lines, across both translations, that agree with each other: Asuka has learned in Ha, after 100% of her "I just want to pilot" lines, that she realizes it's good to have a community with other people and that talking with other people is beneficial. These two bolded full-lines contrast with her initial lines in this phone call in which see says she likes piloting. She is saying that her desire for human community is a new feature in her life in addition to piloting. Her desire for human community is essentially the very last last thing she gets to express in the Rebuilds before the timeskip.
As an aside, my first bolded half-line in the EG translation points plainly for her desire for a parental figure; Misato isn't able to fulfill this but later Kenken is.
You ask well, if she wants human community so much, why does she reject it in the village?
Derantor wrote:[continuing this quote from the first section] ... and a normal life is right around the corner in the village? The village is shown to completely accept Rei; Mari is viewing her as a human, too. So if she's lonely, and if she's just a human, why reject those offers? It really does not make sense: Asuka is normal, wants to be normal, and is given the opportunity to be normal, but rejects that opportunity because ... ? Because she wants to ... punish herself? Hates herself? Likes to make things extra hard for herself? That requires a lot of mental gymnastics ...
The village is shown to completely accept Rei only after initial doubt:
These aren't trusting people. They know that people with baggage shouldn't be loose in the village. Who has baggage?
Asuka has baggage. Something happened in the timeskip that makes her jumpy in the village, and ready for trouble. The village has antagonists -- she doesn't have offers or opportunities to be normal there; only Kenken (and Mari, to a lesser extent) provide these. When Kenken is giving her a place to belong, like no one else on earth will do, what does she think about late at night when normal people would be sleeping? Is she imagining getting onto the Wunder, or piloting, or self-deification? No:
She just wants to sleep. Like a normal person.
On the comparison of Kaworu/Shinji to Shinji/Shikinami:
Derantor wrote:... We see that using the spears to change the world requires an Impact in Shin. That's the whole point of Gendo starting one, and Shinji taking over. Use spear to change the world = Impact. That's not a theory, that's just what happens.
You are right, it is Shinji's decision to not inquire further, which just goes to show that he isn't of sound mind at that point, because I definitely would want to know how taking some spears can make everything right again. I mean, he's a traumatized minor acting on incomplete information - he goes through a mental breakdown in the very same movie ... The point about Kaworu being wrong about Shinji's happiness is that it is in principle wrong to assume you understand other peoples' happiness, and that it's dangerous to confuse your own happiness with that of others.
And of course Shinji wanted to escape his guilt, but that does not mean he wanted to achieve it the way Kaworu pushed him to do it - do you see his face when he realizes that they just started an Impact? He clearly did NOT want any of that to happen, but Kaworu clearly
did - the problem is not the Impact, it's that the spears are wrong. And Impact was always Kaworu's goal, he simply did not tell Shinji about that, even though he should have. He abused his power and knowledge to push Shinji into a direction
he wanted, knowing full well that Shinji was in a desolate mental state - that's abusive behaviour.
It was wrong with Kaworu and Shinji, and it's still wrong with Asuka and Shinji later on. The ironic part of all this is of course that Shinji later on does exactly what Kaworu had planned in the first place, once he got the correct spear.
In the spoiler above I've bolded a comparison that I object to. Yes, Kaworu did abuse "his power and knowledge to push Shinji into a direction
he wanted, knowing full well that Shinji was in a desolate mental state - that's abusive behaviour." I agree with this 100%. But even if we equate Shinji's Q desolate mental state (resulting from the timeskip, the blame for Third Impact, and his apparent failure to save Rei) to Asuka's Shin mental state in instrumentality (an equivalence I'm iffy on, whether she's in knowing conversation wish Shinji, or dreaming per your two-stages interpretation), Kaworu's abuse of Shinji is intentional in a way that Shinji's potential mis-treatment of Asuka is not. If at worst Kaworu acts intentionally and gets a bad result, at worst Shinji is merely negligent (regarding Asuka's consent) and still gets the right result: her conversion to a normal human.
Alright! That's as much as I can cobble together this week. I have more to think about and write up regarding mindreading, comparisons with EoE, whether consent is the highest moral concept at work in Shin's instrumentality, etc. But I figure I should press submit again now before this post gets too insanely long.