Axx°N N. wrote:But the way you frame it as equally unengaged on Asuka's part is extremely interesting and not something I'd factored in, and just seems exactly what's on the tin.
Would you mind elaborating on this? I'm not sure that I understand. Do you mean "unengaged" as in "unaware of what's going on"?
I personally do not like to enter into meta-discussions, and I don't think that the ending of Shin is purely to be understood on a meta-level, either. That said, it is easy to contrast EoE and Shin and see how they play out differently. In EoE, Soryu was Shinji's harshest critic (never mind whether or not she was actually right - and everything she says about Shinji also applies to herself. Soryu is, afterall, the queen of hypocrisy and projection), and it was ultimately her who kinda-sorta forgave him. Or at the very least, expressed her understanding of him, even if he was still disgusting. In Shin, meanwhile, Shikinami does not get to speak. She is Shinji's harshest critic still, but he supposedly changes his ways and is not the person she criticised by the time the ending rolls around. Where Soryu got the last word in EoE, and took part in a non-verbal communication beforehand, a stupified Shikinami
only gets to ask "Baka Shinji?" That's it.
Both in NGE and NTE, Asuka is the character who is most deeply linked to Eva and piloting. Her whole existence revolves around it, contrary to Shinji, for whom Eva is just another thing he does to fulfill other peoples expectations. In a meta-sense, Asuka
is Evangelion. And that's probably why she doesn't get to speak or express her consent (if she does indeed consent) to Shinji/Anno saying goodbye to all of Eva. Because ultimately, it's not something mutual, and it can't be. It's an artist saying goodbye to his creation, and his creation can not answer back. Or rather, it is not allowed to. Everybody who tried to write a story knows that it'll take on a life of its own and will want to go in a direction you might not want it to. Shinji can not have his all-encompassing, uncontradicted goodbye scene if one of the characters refuses to let go of Eva. It would not really be the closure he wants if Asuka speaks up: "What are you, stupid? I already found my place! Eva is the only place I belong! Sure, KenKen is a nice guy, but haven't you seen how I smiled when he told me that Wunder is coming, which means I get to pilot again? Haven't you seen how I stared longingly into the sky, hoping for Wunder's return? Haven't you seen how happy I was when I was in that one place where I belonged? Why do I have to give that up? I don't care if you want to quit piloting, you can do that all you want! Say goodbye to Eva, but leave me alone!"
"even Shikinami has to be blunted, kept at arm's length and kept aside" puts it very well.
I often hear the argument that Asuka is only happy inside her Eva because she's traumatized and knows nothing else/can't imagine anything different. But that's not really true. She lived in Tokyo 3, she lived in the village with Kensuke - it was not to her liking. And even after the terrible trauma of Ha, being eaten alive inside an Eva, having to wear a sealing eye-patch and a choker, and possibly regaining her memories of the horrible things Gendo, SEELE and NERV did to her and her sisters - even after all that, she is still utterly happy when she is back in Unit 02 (look at the Wunder ignition scene in Q again). She has absolutely no reason to fake that happiness, or pretend to like something she actually wants to get rid of or despises, and Shikinami, contrary to Soryu, has long moved passed bullshitting herself. And this leads me to this point:
Konja7 wrote:I think Asuka is pretty clear about how much she hates her body with the "curse" of the Eva, while she forces Shinji to eat. The movie is pretty clear about Asuka being unhappy with her Eva "curse" body. And Shinji knows that.
Shinji returns Asuka to Earth close to Kensuke's house, because he know that's the place for Asuka. After all, Kensuke appears to console Asuka in her Instrumemtality.
I've understand you would prefer a more direct talk, but Shinji knows what Asuka really wants, because Asuka has already said or shown what she wants.
Contrary to Rei6, who really really wants to be a mother and a farmer, or Shinji, who really really wants to be a salaryman, Shikinami never actually expresses a wish for a normal life. She only expresses her dislike of things (with the exception of piloting Eva), but that does not actually allow us to deduce what she wants in itself. To give an example: if I tell you that I dislike Snoop Dog, you can not deduce which artists I actually like. (But feel free to try - would be interesting how close you get.) "Asuka wants to be normal" is probably what Shinji thinks, but as Anno puts it: what the characters say isn't necessarily right. "Shinji returns Asuka to Earth close to Kensuke's house, because he know that's the place for Asuka." - I have to ask now, how does he know? Because it
appears to console her? I mean, maybe, yeah, but ... that's the point. It's just guesswork on his part. By the same logic, he could conclude "Hey, piloting makes Asuka happy, so, I could send her back to Unit 02 with my godpowers and let her pilot forever!
" He does not, in fact, know anything about Asuka, because they never talk, and he never asks. It's highly presumptious on his part to assume that a broken down shack in the middle of nowhere where she gets to do housecleaning and play videogames all day, living with an Ersatz-father-figure while staying away from everybody else is the ideal place for Shikinami and the extent of her ambitions. That sounds rather horrible and dreary, in fact ... And that's before we consider that her hatred of a deficient Lilin body does not have to mean that she wants a fully functional Lilin body, instead of, lets say, the body she creates for herself during Code 999, but I'll gladly leave that can of worms closed for now.
Edit: We also had this situation before: Kaworu
really really really knew what Shinji
actually wanted, and he really really wanted to make him happy, too, without ever asking Shinji. Because he doesn't need to, right? It's plainly obvious what Shinji wants. We can always tell what's best for other people and can act on that knowledge without their consent. That never has any negative consequences whatsoever.
Sneaky second edit: And I also despise the notion that "Asuka on the beach" represents how Asuka sees herself, or represents her "idealized body" - sure, she imagines herself as a flustered, blushing, stupified sex-doll, drawn in a rape-fetish extra-glossy Doujin style, with her tits hanging out of her strategically ripped plugsuit -
sure. A plugsuit, I might remind everybody, which is made out of stretching material which should not rip simply because its inhabitant grows to adult size, which is still smaller than the suit in its deflated form.
That's Asuka's true self-image, because she has got nothing better to do than objectify herself so that Baka Shinji can ogle at her.
Soryu has a comment for that: "Absofuckinglutely disgusting."
Even sneakier third edit: and now that she has an adult body, what does Shinji think will happen next? That she returns to Kensuke and begins fucking her Ersatz-father-figure, because now she can? Gross, Shinji ...
I can't suspend my disbelief that the absence of Evangelion or its curse is as much of a tonic as the plot presents it as,
Exactly. Eva did not cause any of the problems the characters face - other people (or they themselves) did. It's like blaming the kitchen knife for the murder that was commited with it, and melting down all kitchen knifes, proclaiming to have made the world a better place. It's an infantile notion.