Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:09 pm

Doan's Island is a such a goofy episode of the original Gundam that I'm honestly interested in what a film remake of it would even look like, especially with Yas behind it.

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:20 pm

I finally finished Standing Up To The Victory™, and what can I say; man, this show blows. With just a sliver of self-awareness, it could have been brilliant, a ruthless parody showing off everything that up until that point has been wrong with Gundam as a franchise. But lacking this sliver of self-awareness, it is unfortunately just that: Everything that is wrong with Gundam as a franchise. The show is drawn out for far longer than it should be, to the point where the breakneck pace and jarring leaps of the final few episodes are a welcome change from the endless procedures; the combat is repetitive, boring and often times just flat out stupid; the characters are across the board forgettable, with the only exceptions being unlikeable; a solid third of the show that had two of its biggest character deaths and the mid-season upgrade felt like a pointless detour to pad runtime; the show is heavyhanded and, quite frankly, pretentious out the ass with its philosophy, almost all of the female characters fall into the categories of misogynist strawman, mommy fetish or literal child (sometimes multiple at once!) and the character deaths are either unintentionally hilarious or have you going "oh get on with it already". I have never seen a show that felt this empty and directionless, one that you look back on and can't help to ask "well, what was the point of all of that?"

Tomino was right, Victory Gundam is terrible and you shouldn't watch it. Fuck this show and everything it stands for.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
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The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:57 am

You're free now, Blockio. You don't have to suffer anymore. :clap:

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Registration2 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:32 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I finally finished Standing Up To The Victory™, and what can I say; man, this show blows. With just a sliver of self-awareness, it could have been brilliant, a ruthless parody showing off everything that up until that point has been wrong with Gundam as a franchise. But lacking this sliver of self-awareness, it is unfortunately just that: Everything that is wrong with Gundam as a franchise. The show is drawn out for far longer than it should be, to the point where the breakneck pace and jarring leaps of the final few episodes are a welcome change from the endless procedures; the combat is repetitive, boring and often times just flat out stupid; the characters are across the board forgettable, with the only exceptions being unlikeable; a solid third of the show that had two of its biggest character deaths and the mid-season upgrade felt like a pointless detour to pad runtime; the show is heavyhanded and, quite frankly, pretentious out the ass with its philosophy, almost all of the female characters fall into the categories of misogynist strawman, mommy fetish or literal child (sometimes multiple at once!) and the character deaths are either unintentionally hilarious or have you going "oh get on with it already". I have never seen a show that felt this empty and directionless, one that you look back on and can't help to ask "well, what was the point of all of that?"

Tomino was right, Victory Gundam is terrible and you shouldn't watch it. Fuck this show and everything it stands for.


Looks like someone did not stand up to the Victory.

I agree that most gundam are too long for their own right and there are lot of padding, but to say that the fights in victory are repetitive in the gundam context is the most absurd shit you could say. The choreography of Victory for a TV is seriously impressive, and the lack of reused animation is really low, now compare it with Wing or SEED (the footage of buster gundam shooting the cannon in 3/4 screen directions haunts my mind and I did watch the HD Remaster).

I think Uso is an antithesis to Shinji, in a manner that he is everything that Shinji isn't. Even with parents as bizarre as his, which kinda did the same thing: to leave him up to his own means to pursue another objective in life. with the exception that Uso's parents trained him to care of himself. And in the end, when you see him in the cemetery to leave and take care of Karlmann with Shahkti like a man and a woman, to take care of the next generation. To not even say about the last scene with Katejina with Shahkti, when you realize that the glimmer in her eyes comes back as she cries.

To not even say about the episode 50 insert song and moment, the definitive theme of a generation sacrificing themselves for the next one to live, good fight old men, how Uso stand up to his father and made his own decision in how to stop the angel halo, trying to save the people there, the katejina complex about a little girl, and her ending up going back to Woowig after she thought that she found a place with Cronicle, oh man I fucking love Victory so much.

And to not even say that it was literally the only time I liked a Katoki Hajime original gundam design, nothing ever since I liked and to not even say his designs of other designers.

I just hope that Uso and all survivors would get a good life on Earth, since in the future for the colonies is hellish as heck as we can see in DUST

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:11 pm

Oh yes, the choreography is good, no doubt about that; the problem is that most of the fights simply don't matter. They are always just flying around a bit, some contrived complications for the LM, sometimes a Shrike Team member or some other disposable side character gets stuffed into the fridge and then they have either shot down enough faceless mooks or the enemy retreats. It doesn't change anything about the status quo, there is no gain from the fight being there; it just exists to pad runtime, and for three quarters of them the story would not change in the slightest had the fight not been there.
Even Seed and Wing that you mentioned, without a doubt two of the worst offenders at doing this in the entire franchise, still do better at it than Victory.
compare that to, say, Iron-Blooded Orphans where with the possible exception of one battle in S2, every single fight brings about a fundamental change for either one of the core characters or Tekkadan's position as a whole. The reason I say this is a fault of Victory is not because it is the only show that does this, but because it does it worse than almost any other, and because I hold shows to the best that they can do, not the worst that they can do, despite Victory giving plenty of examples for the latter
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Gus Hanson » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:04 pm

I read this through comments on the Cima death video on Youtube that supposedly she was the one who fired the poison gas on a colony during the One Year War but was betrayed in some way after by the Zeon which explains why even though she still works for them in 0083 she turns on them killing Delaz but this time around ends up getting killed by Kou from the Federation even though she supposedly made a deal with the Feds ensuring her safety post 0083. This would mean that she is a tragic character who ends up being betrayed by both sides of the war and eventually killed by the side she tried to end up with.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Registration2 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:07 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Oh yes, the choreography is good, no doubt about that; the problem is that most of the fights simply don't matter. They are always just flying around a bit, some contrived complications for the LM, sometimes a Shrike Team member or some other disposable side character gets stuffed into the fridge and then they have either shot down enough faceless mooks or the enemy retreats. It doesn't change anything about the status quo, there is no gain from the fight being there; it just exists to pad runtime, and for three quarters of them the story would not change in the slightest had the fight not been there.
Even Seed and Wing that you mentioned, without a doubt two of the worst offenders at doing this in the entire franchise, still do better at it than Victory.
compare that to, say, Iron-Blooded Orphans where with the possible exception of one battle in S2, every single fight brings about a fundamental change for either one of the core characters or Tekkadan's position as a whole. The reason I say this is a fault of Victory is not because it is the only show that does this, but because it does it worse than almost any other, and because I hold shows to the best that they can do, not the worst that they can do, despite Victory giving plenty of examples for the latter


"It doesn't change anything about the status quo, there is no gain from the fight being there; it just exists to pad runtime, and for three quarters of them the story would not change in the slightest had the fight not been there."

And this is the part where you start realizing how fucked up UC 0153 is. The cycle of violence is never ending, it is basically an war of attriction, with the Earth Federation scrambling to fight against a smaller group than Zeon was back then. The result of the previous wars (People in ZZ were fighting without any experience because most people were dead already, in F91, feddies were using still jegans against the Cosmo Babylonia, and now, Feddies are so fucked up that they can't retaliate against Zanscare Empire) This grinding war that left many victims and not really a big payoff, or did you not realize how in the end, there isn't a big victory or defeat for any side of the war? They just fuck off from there and that is it. Uso goes back to Kassarelia with his group and we see Katejina going back to Woowig of all places. The war was pointless at any point in victory, and this is the stage of how things went by almost two hundred years. In the end Uso just wanted to finish it and live their lives as they wanted.

And Victory is a seed of something that I only could visualize again in G-Reco (Still didn't watch King Gainer), there isn't a story told like a STORY with the usual character beats. G-Reco works like a documentary, not giving the usual exposition to any shit, breaking the dramalike aspects of it. The movie version goes back into the usual dramalike, giving exposition to things that were just mentioned in dialogue, context and actions in G-Reco. I see these kind of storytelling in the scene where Hangelg talks with Uso almost wishing for Shahkti to die, or the scene where Hangelg isn't even in the ship anymore, we don't know if he died or not, almost like his own legend of Jinn.

IBO and SEED are both drama orientated, it is in its genetics, it is almost like someone complaining that SEED is melodramatic, which was totally the intent and it never gives an inch of doubt of it. Now with Victory and G-Reco for example, it is mostly against that. Look at Cronicle, his death was an accident, his head slammed when he started to fall. G-Reco "main" antagonist died in an accident, without any final dialogue, final confrontation or anything, just a death that could happen any time any place.

I see Victory as the earliest example of this, you could even say that Zambot or Ideon did this too, but I feel these moments more clearly in Victory. Tomino is incredible divisive in his works, Victory is a case of like or hate, I don't see people being mid like Z or ZZ (me for example, thinks Z is okay and really likes ZZ).

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Zusuchan » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:22 am

Watched the first four and a half? five? episodes of IBO. Can't really say I was impressed-none of it was bad by any stretch, but I just couldn't find any way to really interest myself in it, I guess. It feels, from what I've seen, like one of those works which are set in such a setting that they basically have to include and at least superficially discuss dark themes (in this instance war, slavery, colonialism, child soldiers etc.), but a lot of this "discussion" and "thematic content" only comes by because the setting logically dictates a few things' existence and being shown, not so much because the makers are actually interested in heady discussions and examinations. IBO certainly comes across like that to me-there's room for interesting things to happen, but the whole anime still comes across quite normal, generic, expected, the sort of thing you'd normally find while skipping through an anime channel. Maybe it's just my own aesthetic prejudices, but I'd like an anime about heady stuff to not be so consistently...average? I guess maybe it's not trying to be about heady stuff, but war movies/TV shows/books that aren't really interested in war and things related to it come across as "meh" and sort of dishonest to me anyway, especially when they try to be actioners. I did only watch a little bit, but I'm not really impressed or interested at all in the moment.

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:47 pm

Yeah, IBO (or rather, just Gundam in general) is really not for everyone. IBO is arguably one of the best in handling its darkness, so Gundam might just not be the vibe for you.

Entirely unrelated; Gundam Breaker Battlogue is going pretty neat so far, I quite enjoyed the two eps that are currently out
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II B/

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Postby Alaska Slim » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:15 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:Watched the first four and a half? five? episodes of IBO.


You have to watch a little further to realize this show is about following

SPOILER: Show
The villains. Or at best, not the ones who are the least wrong, and thus are destined to lose.


It's kind of like if we were following Jerid Messa in Zeta Gundam; making him and those around him the central characters. He's someone who was definitely wronged by the other side, and he (or at least the TITANS in general) get a few victories. Ultimately though, you know he won't be vindicated, and you see those crestfallen moments for him play out from his perspective.

IBO put things on a victorious ramp the first season, only to rob catharsis in the 2nd, and it does it intentionally. It's meant to give the people on the other side of the typical Gundam narrative the spotlight.

Sort of like Yatterman Nights does for the trope of the idiot trio (think Team Rocket). Only that show was way more fun.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:25 am

Blockio:I did enjoy the 0079 movies more, so it's entirely possible IBO isn't my thing, but other Gundam works might be. Besides, if anything, my central complaint with IBO's darkness would be that it's not taken all that seriously for my liking, not that it's there. (Unless you meant that it's one of the better ones in terms of being consistently dark or treats its darkness in a multifaceted, realistic way or something else entirely.)

Alaska Slim:
SPOILER: Show
I'm not really sure how Tekkadan could be argued to be the "worst" side, considering how they're at least a bit more fucked up by their circumstances than Gjallarhorn seems to be and aren't considerably criminal colonialists actively working against Mars's independence. But I did watch relatively little, so there might be more than meets the eye. I'm not that interested in watching IBO at the moment anyway-I think I'd rather watch Zeta.

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:53 am

Ah, right, you did mention watching them a bit ago, I forgot. Usually IBO is by far the best gundam show to grab people's attention and pull them in if they have had no points of contact, so if someone finds it boring, that usually translates fairly directly into not liking anything else from the franchise, either.
Depending on what exactly you liked about 0079, After War Gundam X, 08th MS Team or Turn A might be more your speed.
Zeta is generally regarded as being one of the best; haven't seen it myself yet, but if his other shows are anything to go by, your enjoyment will depend a lot on your enjoyment of Tomino's style and your tolerance for the weird hangups he has.
I usually also recommend Build Fighters, Divers ReRise and G Gundam as good starting points, but those are inherently somewhat less serious by their respective premises (despite the latter two still having a fairly notable bodycount), so they probably won't really do it for you

SPOILER: Show
Tekkadan are definitely not The Bad Guys in any traditional sense; in S2 they side with the wrong faction and pay dearly for it, but even while being a morally grey mercenary group, they are fairly consistently the least horrible in any given conflict, and with the notable exception of dealing with their old superiors at the start of S1, they and the Turbines are the only side whose track record on human rights violations isn't measured in the dozens
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:48 am

Yeah, I'll think I'll watch Zeta next-it'll probably also be a lot more Tomino than the MSG movies, so I guess we'll see just how much his style works for me. Based on 0079, I'll probably like Char, the visual aesthetics and, if it's retained from Zeta's prequel, the genuine feeling of watching a war anime, but any more than that remains in the air.

SPOILER: Show
Based on the little I saw "morally grey mercenary group" does make sense.

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:00 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Usually IBO is by far the best gundam show to grab people's attention and pull them in
Funnily enough, it's the only Gundam of those I've tried that I've dropped -- it just didn't spark interest.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:14 pm

It's arguably the most divisive Gundam show, people tend to either love it or don't care for it at all, with very little in between
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:35 pm

I guess I'm one of the few in between on IBO. Its fine but I feel like its a decent one season arc kind of forced across two seasons.

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby hui43210 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:47 am

I'm one of the ones that love IBO, it brought a lot new to the table and was refreshing after the slog that was R in G.

Zeta on the other hand is the most overrated Gundam I think. It's a classic for sure, but I also don't understand why it's so highly regarded. Kamile is annoying, half the show feels like it's just him and Fa bickering, and Tomino gets hung up on his usual bizarre fixations way more than 0079. I much prefer double Zeta where Tomino doesn't even try to be serious.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Alaska Slim » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:26 am

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:Blockio:I did enjoy the 0079 movies more, so it's entirely possible IBO isn't my thing, but other Gundam works might be. Besides, if anything, my central complaint with IBO's darkness would be that it's not taken all that seriously for my liking, not that it's there. (Unless you meant that it's one of the better ones in terms of being consistently dark or treats its darkness in a multifaceted, realistic way or something else entirely.)

Alaska Slim:
SPOILER: Show
I'm not really sure how Tekkadan could be argued to be the "worst" side, considering how they're at least a bit more fucked up by their circumstances than Gjallarhorn seems to be and aren't considerably criminal colonialists actively working against Mars's independence. But I did watch relatively little, so there might be more than meets the eye. I'm not that interested in watching IBO at the moment anyway-I think I'd rather watch Zeta.


SPOILER: Show
There's a decent arc for Mika where he becomes more detached from his dream of running a farm and instead gives himself more fully into simply being an extension of the Gundam. Hungry for combat, unable to feel empathy for his enemy. He becomes this as he feels it's what Orga is asking of him.

Orga in turn is chased into making bad, hasty decisions by Mikazuki's gaze. The worst starting with getting "vengeance" for Biscuit (the moral conscience of the group) who had insisted they go back home. How Orga chased after vengeance was through expanding the war into untouched areas, creating more collateral damage.

Later, Orga decided Tekkadan's effort was to become "Kings of Mars". This was no longer about defense, or defending the weak, or asserting their right to exist, but simply putting more rewards on their plate. To that end, they aligned themselves with someone they knew, certainly by the end, was planning to be a mass murderer.

Like Jared, they weren't villains per se, but they sided with the wrong people, and took up toxic motivations.


If you're interested, here's a good treatment of this explanation.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:47 am

I personally disagree regarding some of their intentions, but it's certainly a valid reading. I'll take your word that the Boofire video is to that tune as well, I don't particularily like the guy and ever since he told people to brigade other channels' comment sections about watching AWGX, I refuse to watch any of his stuff on principle; a video that I think does a really good job at highlighting some of the character intricacies is this one. Haven't watched it in a hot minute, if memory serves me it goes a bit further than I would towards the logical extremes of some of it, but all in all a very good take, definitely a lot more nuanced than the "lol Mika is just a mindless brute" that gets parroted a lot unfortunately.
SPOILER: Show
for better or worse, Mika is the driving force behind and central pillar of Tekkadan, and while he has more or less outsourced large-scale decisionmaking to Orga (who is arguably the better man for the job, despite his poor decisions in S2, apart from Biscuit he very much was still the most farsighted in the entire squad), what's notable is thre times when Mika for a moment takes back that decision and takes leadership himself; once in the train after Biscuit dies, pushing Orga to give orders again - definitely one of the scenes that shows the most how toxic their relationship actually was, in both directions; once when he outright goes against Orga's orders to not fight Hashmal, and the last time after his death, stepping up to keep the rest of Tekkadan in line and not have them run off to get themselves killed. These handful of moments and the few times he lets down his guard to show affection or comfort someone are what make him such a fascinating character to me. Jaded as all hell, emotionally repressed and with a massive disregard for his own wellbeing, but behind all of that a caring self-appointed big brother and possibly one of the most headstrong protagonists in the franchise
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Zusuchan » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:50 pm

Alaska Slim: I haven't seen most of IBO, so I'm not really going to take part in this conversation anymore, as I feel I just lack the necessary knowledge to make any good and qualified calls. I don't really know in detail what Tekkadan gets up to, so I can't really, in my view, make judgment calls based on what other people say.


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