Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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oliverdsw
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Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

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Postby oliverdsw » Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:51 pm

Referring to the Rebuild version of course. I sometimes wonder why Gendo had to make things this complicated in the first place. Why couldn't he just go with the plan, since he and his wife would have been "reunited" as well - maybe not as humans, but as parts of a whole new lifeform ?

Apart from that, I still don't really get what exactly IS his goal in 3.0+1.0. He wants to reunite with his wife, but how exactly would this look like, for example, for the rest of humanity ? With the key he already is some kind of god, what comes after, making his wife a goddess and wipe out humanity along the way, just to be in an intimate togetherness for all eternity ? In the dialogue with Shinji however he actually says what he wants (for example no AT-Fields), and this too sounds very much like SEELE's original scenario, what leads me to my opening question. How does this connect ?

Seems like a rather simple question, maybe I just need to hear it once again, from another point of view. Thanks ^_^
Last edited by oliverdsw on Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:44 am

The important thing is that SEELE's Instrumentality in Rebuild is very different than the one in NGE: in the latter it was a merging of all of humanity into one single mega-consciousness (with them at the top of its hierarchy), but in the former it's about "purifying" humanity from their Fruit of Knowledge (aka their consciousness) so they could get a Fruit of Life (aka immortality), so for Gendo there wouldn't be a reunion with Yui, because both (and the rest of mankind) would be little more than unthinking immortal drones. Don't ask me why the progenitor race made such a convoluted ordeal for mankind to transform them into pseudo-Angels, the movie never explains it.

Now for Gendo, his version of Instrumentality in Rebuild is the same than in NGE (the mind-merging of humanity, but without a hierarchy), he says that it's because humanity can't coexist and it would erase all differences and conflicts and yada yada... but it's clear that his real objective is to be reunited with Yui. Now the big question is if this version of Instrumentality was also Yui's plan, because unlike in NGE (and the manga) we don't have any scene telling us that she initially only wanted to wreck SEELE's plan and that Gendo and Fuyutsuki later modified their plans to be reunited with her, the fact that Gendo mentions in 1.0 that Shinji's current path was planned since 14 years ago (aka his birth) could hint that in Rebuild she also wanted Instrumentality to happen. (but then that raise the question of why did Fuyutsuki betrayed Gendo at the last minute... :dizzy: )
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Re: Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

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Postby nerv bae » Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:53 am

Agreed; in other words in NTE Gendo wants EoE global tang but SEELE wants Infinities (not Failures of Infinity, but successful ones). Is that right?

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Re: Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

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Postby The18°angel » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:52 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote: the fact that Gendo mentions in 1.0 that Shinji's current path was planned since 14 years ago (aka his birth) could hint that in Rebuild she also wanted Instrumentality to happen. (but then that raise the question of why did Fuyutsuki betrayed Gendo at the last minute... :dizzy: )


It could be said that they rewrote 3.0 and 3.0 + 1.0 too many times and that several characters and important plot points that had been put in 1.0 and 2.0 were scrapped or changed after all the last version of 3.0 called 3.3333 had to reconnect the downed VTOL in the central dogma with a WILLE logo and Kaji plus mari and Asuka's plugsuit were also changed to match 3.0 + 1.0. Another possibility is that yui despite planning for the instrumentality on her own terms, she wanted to leave the final decision to Shinji maybe

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Re: Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

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Postby Konja7 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:17 pm

View Original PostThe18°angel wrote:It could be said that they rewrote 3.0 and 3.0 + 1.0 too many times and that several characters and important plot points that had been put in 1.0 and 2.0 were scrapped or changed after all the last version of 3.0 called 3.3333 had to reconnect the downed VTOL in the central dogma with a WILLE logo and Kaji plus mari and Asuka's plugsuit were also changed to match 3.0 + 1.0. Another possibility is that yui despite planning for the instrumentality on her own terms, she wanted to leave the final decision to Shinji maybe


The changes in 3.333 are mainly visuals, which exist to connect better with 3.0+1.0.

Although they add a WILLE logo in the VTOL in 3.333, I suspect Kaji being the pilot of the VTOL and his death were already part of the story in 3.0.

Image


PS: What are the differences between Mari and Asuka's plugsuits?

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Re: Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

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Postby The18°angel » Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:40 pm

the change in color of the plug suits, Asuka had white details in her plug suit in 3.0 same with mari in the dogma central battle

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Re: Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

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Postby DantesInferno » Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:39 pm

I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I think the whole god-slaying business that Gendo and Seele discuss might be refering to Eva-01.

We know since 2.0 that Seele consider the Mark.06 to be the "true evangelion", in Fuyutsuki's words "no longer (build) a false god, but a true one this time". Gendo apparently outdoes them and causes the awakening of Eva-01 before Mark.06 can even get to Earth, much to Seele's disappointment (as per Kaji). This awakening involves absorbing the 10th angel's core and with it, the Fruit of Life. In Ritsuko's own words, Eva-01 has become an almost god-like entity.

The idea is that Eva-01 is god-like by virtue of having obtained both fruits: Knowledge from Yui, Life from the 10th.

The god-slaying that Seele and Gendo talk about involves getting rid of the undesired, god-like Eva-01, which is an obstacle to Seele's instrumentality.

Gendo's plan for the god-slaying is to recover Yui from Eva-01 and reunite with her (by means of his own instrumentality). This is also necessary so that he can integrate the whole humanity (Yui included) into one consciousness, without conflict or envy or hate etc. This is in line with his exposition to Misato and Ritsuko on the Wunder about killing god, spinning god and humanity, etc.

Gendo promises Seele that he will carry it out, but he is only half-lying: he will carry out the god slaying (he satys as much to Misato and Ritsuko during the next movie), but in his own way to push his agenda forward (not Seele's).

We also know that up until 3.0, Seele had "given up" on the god-slaying. It is possible that Eva-01 is indestructible by conventional means (much like Eva-13?), so they did the best next thing and shot it into deep space inside the Tesseract, guarded by the Mark.04b for good measure. But something went wrong, and it ended up in lower Earth orbit instead (there is a problem with this theory: the Mark.04a's that guard the Tesseract from orbit precede the 'embedded' 4b in naming. If the original plan wasn't to keep Eva-01 in orbit, they must have been deployed after the launch failed, to at least keep the close Eva-01 well guarded. This problem evaporates if the Mark.04 designations are done by Wille, not NERV, and in 'order of appearance').

This whole undoing Eva-01's deification by removing Yui from it is consistent with Shinji's line near the end:

I finally understand what dad's 'god slaying' meant... Dad just wanted to send mom off!


It is quite interesting that Shinji says this, since up until now he has never heard about the 'god slaying' in universe (perhaps once at most during his talk with Gendo during instrumentality? I can't remember); it is the audience who has heard the cryptic phrase multiple times and should be naturally puzzled by it, and equally satisfied by finally undersdtanding it.

Shinji is a stand-in (avatar) for the audience here.
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An alternate possibility is that the god-slaying refers to the necessary elimination of the 12th angel, which had been trapped inside Mark.06, in turn 'frozen' together with Lilith by the spears. Seele had 'given it up' simply because before the retrieval of Shinji, they just didn't have the means (i.e., sufficient pilots) of pulling both spears and accessing the 12th deep within. I'm not so sure about this one though... Angels are 'close' to god, but not quite the same thing either.

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Re: Why can't Gendo just stick to SEELE's scenario ?

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Postby Zoop » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:48 am

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:An alternate possibility is that the god-slaying refers to the necessary elimination of the 12th angel, which had been trapped inside Mark.06, in turn 'frozen' together with Lilith by the spears. Seele had 'given it up' simply because before the retrieval of Shinji, they just didn't have the means (i.e., sufficient pilots) of pulling both spears and accessing the 12th deep within. I'm not so sure about this one though... Angels are 'close' to god, but not quite the same thing either.


In regard to this last tidbit, I dont know how this works in Japanese as it seems that "godslaying" can mean quite a few things. But would this make more sense if with the godslaying it is meant to eliminate all angels, and not just specically the 12th. As in "slaying of the entire pantheon"-kind of thing, the 12th and kaworu were there last ones left, and they did get eliminated. Asuka's angels in her eye ruins this, tho, but maybe SEELE wasn't aware of that? (and in the end, also got eliminated).
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But anyway, I like the first possibility more, that all this was talk about 01, also explaining the reason they shot it into space.


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