gatotsu911 wrote:#4 includes some of the most cynical, soulless shit ever in the series, particularly the CG fight scenes and fanservice (of both the sexual and narrative variety) but also has some of the most striking bits of raw expression since EoE, and the last 20-25 minutes are basically golden even if almost nothing with Mari works quite as well as Anno seems to think it does.

He's talked up that whole "I want to inspire people to rush outside and do something" vibe for years; and it's pretty clear that he wanted Mari to be the vehicle for that.

And I agree, he had the outline, and I like that outline, but he didn't quite connect the dots in a way I found satisfying.

Like Star Wars Episode 7, what made the film for me was a few character moments that felt like satisfying continuation/conclusions to their arcs. That alone made it worthwhile checking in.

Honestly though, kind of hoping the talk about in-between stories will evolve into this getting the Gundam Unicorn treatment; a TV series adaptation that offers more detail... and less cringe-inducing CG.

After a lot of deliberation and fiddling, my article on 3+1 just went up!

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— twitter-user (@username) date

It’s a long one, but I really wanted to tackle as many angles as I could. If anyone takes the time to read it, I would be very grateful for any and all feedback!

Having seen all four movies, here’s my ranking of them, from “least best” (because one can never truly have a bad Evangelion work) to “best”.

1.0
I’m putting this one in the bottom spot because, while it isn’t terrible, it just has the least reason to exist of all the Rebuild movies. It’s a remake, with very little outward change from the original TV series. Now, obviously the Rebuild series still has to set up Shinji’s story, but one would think that, this being a remake, they would have changed a lot more. If you’ve already watched the first few episodes of the show, this movie won’t surprise you.

3.0
This one isn’t a rehash of the original the way the first movie was, but it does make a lot of decisions that seem questionable and don’t really serve the story well. Some of these become more understandable in light of the fourth movie, but others are just strange. It’s also, unfortunately, the movie that has the most of its runtime taken up by infodumps, thanks to Shinji being in a coma for 14 years. Mari, who was set up as a new main character in the second movie, doesn’t get to do much here

4.0
I wish I could say the finale was the best of the movies. I really do. Unfortunately, it isn’t. There are a lot of good things about it, but it falls short because of the ending. More specifically, Mari’s relationship with Shinji, which was never hinted at in such a way before, and pushes her into borderline Mary-Sue territory. Luckily, that’s the only thing I really don’t like about it, and for the most part it’s a solid conclusion to the movie. But as the best movie in the series, it narrowly loses out to. . .

2.0
This is, in my opinion, where all the best parts of the movies come together. We can tell that the story is beginning to diverge from the one we know in the TV series, but the characters and world are still recognizable enough that there’s no need for massive expositions. Mari is introduced, and is kept mysterious regarding her motives and true alliances. All we know is that she hails from Britain, is capable of activating an Evangelion’s “beast mode”, and works for an unknown third party. We’re kept in the dark about her, and so are the main characters. Shinji, Asuka, and Rei are also still their recognizable selves, but there are hints—especially in the latter two characters’ cases— that they are not the same ones we know.

gatotsu911 wrote:After a lot of deliberation and fiddling, my article on 3+1 just went up!

Just finished reading this and I'm super impressed. This is first proper review of 3+1 that I've really connected with, managing to put into words my own conflicted feelings on the film better than I ever could. So many great lines scattered throughout. It's the sort of analytical writing that personally inspires me to develop my own tastes further and get better at expressing my thoughts coherently.

gatotsu911 wrote:After a lot of deliberation and fiddling, my article on 3+1 just went up!

This is a great review. You voice the film's faults (as I see them) extremely accurately. I only wish I could share in your appreciation of the film otherwise. Ironically, the moment that did it for you I also heavily related to, the "because we like you" line. However, something being relatable emotionally for me can't make up for an execution devoid of pacing, stakes, and deeper explorations into that emotion. It's not new enough of a feeling or idea when compared to the wealth of literature and film that exists that doesn't spend most of its runtime on the things that didn't work that you specified. Faults you lay out, such as the contradictions of the messaging, consumerist appeal and sleaze of how it treats its characters, really does guarantee I feel nothing about them being cast into happy ends. When you describe certain scenes and images from the film, they're almost more vivid than they are in the actual film; I wish it had slowed down and resembled more of your recounting of it.

El Squibbonator wrote:...and pushes her into borderline Mary-Sue territory.

To be fair, she always was squarely in that territory, and puns on her name, "Mari-Sue," have been prominent since she was introduced. If anything, the ending makes total sense and is consistent with the elements of NTE as they've been set up; if anyone is disappointed, they really shouldn't be, because the writing was in the sky all along.

gatotsu911 wrote:After a lot of deliberation and fiddling, my article on 3+1 just went up!

Yup... Pretty much sums up what I thought about this movie. There are lines here and there I don't agree with, but overall it hits the nail on the head.

gatotsu911:Great write-up! Can't say I agreed with everything, but it was well written and you managed to communicate your feelings quite well.

I'd find it tough to "rank" them overall. Thrice Upon A Time strikes me as probably the best overall, going from a Return Of The Jedi-esque father-son confrontation to a Deathly Hallows Part 2-esque "all grown up" ending more cheerful than EoE's while tying up more loose ends than NGE's but 2.0 also stands out for its scene where Shinji brings about the apocalypse to bring Rei back (#LoveIsNotTourism) amidst unforgettable music and scenery. Either is more memorable than the other two, though.

On the whole, NTE seems a little underwhelming compared to NGE. That said, a confounding factor might be that I saw NGE first, which is also when I finally got to see the context for some of those interesting-even-out-of-context scenes I had already heard of, along with other interesting scenes I hadn't. Sometimes spoilers enhance a show instead of ruining it. That and by the time I got around to NTE I was... somewhat accustomed to NGE's blend of cuteness and shock value, so maybe it wasn't quite as unforgettable anymore.

So I rewatched Shin, taking the chance before Karen's Prime subscription expires next week, and I still think I was right in 2009 (and too generous in 2008)

* 1.01 -- too moody all round, the upgraded graphics in the NTE!Ramiel fight being the only worthwhile part (and even then it's missing cut 259 of the original). Rating dropped from the original 8/10 to 5/10 after some consideration (and a partial rewatch about a year back), reflecting how the project as a whole developed out of the late detour into fanfic territory.

* Ha, Q -- N/A

* Shin -- the Paris scene doesn't weather multiple viewings (from the various Avant iterations) very well and in the context of the rest of the film, it feels detached from anything that follows. Once the film moves to the Wunder, the gratuitous action scene drags on and on (checks player -- there's still an hour to go). The whole sequence from the Gendo confrontation, through Minus Space/instrumentality to the new world section felt best described in Anno's own words (from the extended "Challenge of Eva" documentary)



Indeed, the whole thing felt hollow; old Anno's preoccupations don't overlap with mine in the same way that the original did, and this iteration of the characters are alienating, leaving the movie with none of EoE's emotional weight. Rating say 5/10 to be generous.

Mr. Tines wrote:Indeed, the whole thing felt hollow; old Anno's preoccupations don't overlap with mine in the same way that the original did, and this iteration of the characters are alienating, leaving the movie with none of EoE's emotional weight. Rating say 5/10 to be generous.

I find myself agreeing mostly with this, though I would rate it much lower. My reaction to 3.0+1.0 / Shin was, unfortunately, almost the same reaction I had to Rise of Skywalker - just utter disbelief that this was how it was going to end. The biggest difference between the two is that I was groaning through RoS but laughing at 3.0+1.0 - I was frankly astounded that the mess of the plot somehow got approved for production.

I don't know. I really wanted to like the Rebuild continuity. But in the end, with literally every single wrinkle in the plot apparently part of Gendo's unending Xanatos / 4-D chess master / nigh-omniscient prescience web of traps, to the bizarre way in which spears can be manufactured at will in the space of seconds, to the seemingly throwaway moment of giving Mari the last name of Iscariot to impart upon her more characterization than she had up to that point...all of it just felt like no one had any real idea of where this plot was going or how it was meant to end, so they just ended it with everything.

3.0+1.0
2.22
3.33
1.11

Arisugawa wrote:I was frankly astounded that the mess of the plot somehow got approved for production.

Watching either cut of the associated documentary (the shorter one was on Japanese TV, or the two-parter on Amazon Prime from which the image & subtitles that I posted was taken) will tell you all you need to know about the approval process.

There comes a point where someone is in a position of too much clout to submit to an editor. You don't have to run your own publisher to get to that point, but doing so sure helps. While NGE was Anno doing art therapy, it was also done with a restraining team (see, for example the massive changes from episode 24 drafts to the actual thing); by the time of Shin, it was Anno extemporising getting Evangelion out of his system, and communicating by dropping hints in the general direction of the production team, and then playing "warm or cold" with their guesses.

Is the documentary worth the watch?

Arisugawa wrote:Is the documentary worth the watch?

I found them interesting enough that I watched both.

Arisugawa wrote:But in the end, with literally every single wrinkle in the plot apparently part of Gendo's unending Xanatos / 4-D chess master / nigh-omniscient prescience web of traps...

Now that it's been a while, I think this is cementing itself as my least favorite thing about the Rebuilds. I have my issues with nearly everything, but for instance, Shinji's character struggles are, at least in isolated moments, totally fine in dramatic terms. But there's a complete vacuum of interest for me whenever Gendo is on-screen. Nothing is intriguing about what he's doing, he guarantees there's no stakes, and the sudden injection of a redemption/self-sacrifice/tragic backstory only serves to make it worse, even though dramatically it seems pretty clear it was intended as a rectifying thing or even the dramatic crux of the whole shebang. It's a big ask that anything counteracting his 7D chess could even begin to feel earned or believable given the enormity of what he did, not just in terms of being in-universe crimes against humanity, but just in terms of making up for how much he railroaded the plot into such a brick wall. If Gendo really is more like Anno's self-insert this time around, a hand-wave and a hug doesn't excuse hundreds of minutes of keikaku that just isn't compelling or meaningful. Previously I wouldn't have said the lack of a good villain even matters in terms of what Evangelion is going for, but because Gendo and his role as enemy was so foregrounded this time around, the fact he's just a bad villain in villain character terms is really a fatal flaw.

Regarding stakes, thats exactly my gripe with the Rebuilds.

I still love the lore, the world building and want to find out whatever was going on with all the impact mechanics and all. But story-wise? A big meh from me.

1.11: We've seen most of it already, packaged a bit fancier, the only real appeal compared to NGE is exactly the differences, what is different, and why is it relevant. Otherwise pretty solid movie, but a been-there-done-that
2.22: Stuff goes off the rails, definitely more appealing to me. Shinji awakening his eva and going "give me back Ayanami" gave me the chills, seeing the world go to shit right there made me go "holy shit" in an EoE kind of way.
3.33: Too much new stuff, I get it's a timeskip, but to me, it's all just a mess, Shinji messing shit up and 13 awakening, a bit too predictable, but in the end, nothing really actually happened. All the new stuff introduced more seems like filler than actually relevant.
3.0+1.0: Great to see the old classmates survived, time in the village is probably the best about this, even tho my interest lies more in the mechanics and battles, so for me thats not a good thing. I was hoping for an EoE-like conclusion, not neccesarily having to end badly, but there were no stakes! EoE Asuka's battle vs the mass productions was to me the most gruelling yet awesome fight. In this movie, all of it is just canon-fodder. There was no real danger, even when 13 awakened again, he went away to do the instrumentality thing. Even the other Ships, Wunder being under fire as much as it was, and, well, nothing really happened. No stakes, no thrills, no excitement, just fancy graphics. I was just waiting for the moment where it would all turn to shit, because, everything was going way too well. Ok, Asuka got absorbed, ok, Misato got shot and sacrificed herself ... but that's about it. The conclusion left me feeling empty. Like eating mcdonalds when really hungry, but then being hungry again after an hour because it wasn't really filling. But at least you ate.

So my rating:
2.22
1.11
3.0+1.0
3.33

In short.

2.22
3.33
3.0+1.0
1.11

In long.

I chose 2.22 as my favorite because it was my first viewing of anything Eva related, and for me it holds up. 2.22 had the best fight scenes, some of my favorite character interactions, and was where it started diverging from NGE. After this movie I went back and saw the original series + EOE. (Bought it from some Forum members). And have been hooked ever since. 10/10

Evangelion 3.33 is my second favorite, the music is what sets it apart for me, as well as having some of the best action and wtf scenes in all of Evangelion. I had so much hype heading into the final movie. I feel if I had consumed the original series first, I may not have liked the route these new movies were taking. 9/10

Eva 3.0+1.0. This one is still a bit to early to place but for the sake of the thread I put it here at 3rd. As of now I’ve only seen this movie once, and while I was ok with the ending.I liked how it felt liked EOE in some parts to make it feel like a final movie but I thought it could’ve done more to make it feel important. As someone said before me, it felt like there were no stakes. The amount of fan service also took me out of the film, I usually don’t mind it in anime but this made the story feel even less serious. 8.5/10

1.11 has to go last for me, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad movie. I would give it a solid 8/10. I enjoy all of Shinji and Reis interactions, and the more serious feel to it. I also find the pace a bit to slow, and can be a bit of a drag when rewatching it.

Well everyone as of now, these are my rankings. I definitely need to go back and rewatch everything Eva related and see if any of my opinions change.

man, the first half of 3.0+1.0 in the village was excellent, setting and human side

the last half, with the exception of seeing the Mark 7s for the first time, kinda sucked

My NTE character tier list.


Pretty different from my good and old NGE one, huh?

1: OK there's too many shots just straight-up lifted from the original, what's the point? Least it improved and expanded on Operation Yashima. Just seems kinda boring but there's hints this isn't just a remake so let's hope this goes places.
2: Shit yeah things are heating up and getting interested. (Coincidentally I should probably pick up an HD TV to get the most out of this).
3: Holy hell this sucks. The new setting is hard to get into, every new character seem paper-thin and the 3D CGI action is flat, stiff and incomprehensible. Kudos for trying something new I guess but swing and a miss.
3+1: Oh I guess they finished it. Got the holidays off so might as well have a look. And coming off of #3 they did some things right, whole arc with New Rei was interesting. Shinji becomes weirdly wise and competent all of a sudden and sorts everything and everyone out. That didn't feel earned. Action scenes are still boring and ugly 3D clusterfucks - I thought these people liked animation, how could they ok this shit? Anyway, barring some of the plotpoints and characters they do manage to keep a throughline and wrap things up in way. And unlike EoE it only takes one watch. But unlike EoE I doubt any of this'll stick with me. I mean we're all getting older and it's fascinating to watch someone pour their heart out when they're younger, troubled and more vulnerable, then juxtaposing that with the same dude a quarter-century later but with way more pull, money and in a better frame of mind. Not gonna brush this off entirely but I suspect everyone would have benefitted if we'd left well enough alone after 1997. All this is gonna be hard to ignore whenever I decide to rewatch the original again. For better or worse since it was really only Rebuild movies 2 & 4 that grabbed me, 1 & 3 I'd rather not sit through again. And as an animation buff all the action absolutely pales in comparison to the original productions. Also Mari sucks, they forgot to turn her into a character.

Just got around to watching it yesterday - Good on y'all for keeping this place going and merry christmas everyone.