The possible meta-commentary of Asuka's NTE backstory

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: The possible meta-commentary of Asuka's NTE backstory

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Postby Luigi shinji » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:21 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:If Asuka is toxic, then so is everyine in this story.


Toxic probably wasn't the write word for it, sorry for my english. But I think Asuka and Shinjis relationship didn't get well in the original show and Anno wanted to correct that

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Re: The possible meta-commentary of Asuka's NTE backstory

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:26 pm

View Original PostLuigi Shinji wrote:But I think Asuka and Shinjis relationship didn't get well in the original show and Anno wanted to correct that


Why would he? You're making it sound like it was unintentional.
That was very deliberate! Yes. They hate each other! Yes. Asuka bullies Shinji all the time. Yes, Shinji went WAY too far when he finaly lost his patience and did some things he could definitely be thrown in juvie for.
Asuka & Shinji are deliberately designed to push all of each other's buttons - being horny for each other is just one part of that that is subordinate to the whole.

There was, like, a whole theme going on about how people can hurt and bring out the worst in each other & make each other never want to talk to another human again. People are awful to each other sometimes, and yet we can't survive on our own. That's some of the inherent absurdity in the human condition.
That is a reality, ugly & regrettable as it may be, so we think about it, so we put it in art.
Our brains are in fact programmed to be obsessed & stimulated by bad wrong things we are afraid of - that's how we avoid danger by anticipating it.
Art seems like a pretty good outlet for negative feelings you don't want to act out in your real life (because that would be toxic, unfair, creepy, stupid, irrresponsible...)

Also, they are in a war. War makes people crazy. You should read some vietnam atrocity stories; Shinji completely snapping after Kaworu's death is very realistic.
Also, they're young and stupid. People don't automatically know how to be moral or have a good relationship; They need to be taught, and no one's teaching those two because they're all too busy making them fight monsters until they break from it. Which might also bee why they didn't have the chance to learn from experience or insight.

I don't think Anno was at all concerned with making the characters be models of perfect behavior.

This isn't aimed at small children who would just emulate everything they see, but an audience that would already have the faculties to tell that bad behavior is bad without needing to be told with a big red arrow. It was supposed to be a drama/tragedy that depicts human weakness and uglyness. The things that happen in it are bad! The characters are bad people!
The people who even explicitly try to be morally good can be counted on one hand (Misato, Kaji, Kaworu, Mari... and the Suzuhara siblings, but theyre minor characters with little influence) and most of them go about it in somewhat flawed ways, have big biases & don't really succeed. Most are neutral (concerned with their own goals/personal gains) or outright evil (pursuing harmful goals or pursuing their neutral goals at great cost to others).

If you're looking for inappropiate behavior, I'd look first at Misato constantly drinking in the presence of minors, not surveilling them properly, relying way too much on Shinji for support, not cleaning or cooking, missing Asuka's downward spiral until it's way too late...
But they're in such a crappy situation that it's either Misato or no one. No one would certainly be worse, that doesn't make Misato good, but that makes the choices & dynamics less simple. She didn't sign up because she'd think she'd be a good guardian, but because no one else gave a fuck.

Likewise, Shinji hardly acts like a responsible soldier, but can you blame him like you would an adult?
NERV shouldn't be making kids do it, but if they don't, the world ends.

Not everything is simple & easy in real life; Morality depends very much context.
It's easy to be a saint in paradise but these characters are all very far from ideal circumstances. They've had super bad lives and are fighting for survival every day.

Anno has this whole thing about not shielding the viewers (including the younger ones - certainly not six year olds, but definitely adolescents who can already use critical thinking & know what being horny is) from the uglyness of reality, because being sheltered does not prepare you - you also see this in Nadia where you have realitically brutal fascism, and the protags outright telling a little girl that she will never see her dead parents at all, none of that "always watching over you" nonsense. (which really impressed me when I saw it as an actual kid. Cause I knew people die. I thought, "Ah, this show is not bullshitting me. i am much more likely to take lessons from someone who does not bullshit.")

All the ugly hairy inappropriate stuff was very much put there deliberately.

Anno wasn't concerned with making the characters likeable; He was surprised anyone did, because they were all, in his own estimation, twisted. But ppl did like them because we all have weakness, & even if we don't act it out we can sympathize with it.
I don't think Asuka is popular because people think she's an example of perfect morals. They like her because her story makes them feel things, in part because of the extreme fucked up stuff that happens in it.

Art is entertainment - it has to be interesting, stimulating & move your emotions. It can have a moral message (people get very emotional about morals after all!) but it doesn't have to. And there's two ways to have a moral message: Show a character doing it right, or show them doing it wrong and then show the bad consequences. The actions of Shinji & Asuka definitely have their bad consequences shown. They lose everything, hit rock bottom, and the world almost ends.

The reason they didn't rehash the exact same thing for the Rebuilds probably has more to do with the fact that the original series has already been made. Because it doesn't need to be corrected: It's perfectly fine. So instead of a shiny HD correction, they did a new story branch.

If we look at Rebuild alone the romance/lust there is like very much a minor thing that doesn't get that much screentime (it's significance is rly more in Asuka briefly getting a normal-ish teen experience & then losing it again or just general showing a bit of normalcy before things go off the rails), nor is an adult military leader physically kicking, insulting or brutally force feeding a random child soldier exactly appropriate behavior.

It is, however, realistic war zone/ unhinged veteran behavior. Yeah she's shown to have twisted good intentions somewhere but that doesn't make it right, it just makes it complicated, as stuff involving people in extreme circumstances often is. Can we blame her as much as someone not living in a post apocalyptic wasteland? Probably not.
She comes off very brutal in Q and then TuaT shows us just how bad her life is & how much she suffered & lost, and Shinji failing to make a decision was "technically" the start of it. It's telling that she would have preferred if he'd commited to killing her to being left just barely alive but horribly transformed, neither saved nor put out of her misery.
She's not being perfectly reasonable, but who would be? Realistically, most wouldn't.

ppl like Mari who have no fear, don't grow bitter & make the most of situations do absolutely exist, but they're rare. (Most of those, again like Mari, might be tactless, thrill-seeking types and offputting in that way) Most of us, if you threw us in a war, would be more Shinji, Asuka, Misato or Rei (who, since I haven't mentioned her flaws in this post before, is indoctrinated into doing the bad guys' bidding & a true believer at the start even though she kind of inwardly knows better, cause it gives her otherwise lacking life a sense of purpose, usefulness and indirect connection - people who look down on her cause they think themselves immune to propaganda are funny to me - our brains are basically sophisticated versions of statistical learning alghorithms and like the neural set that shows you ads theyre only as reliable as the data they have been trained on).
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Re: The possible meta-commentary of Asuka's NTE backstory

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:27 am

View Original PostLuigi Shinji wrote:But I think Asuka and Shinjis relationship didn't get well in the original show and Anno wanted to correct that

So that’s probably why he decided to have Shinji paired up with Mari instead of Asuka, with both of them running off and leaving her behind.
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Re: The possible meta-commentary of Asuka's NTE backstory

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:15 am

As with EoE before it, I often feel compelled to remind everyone that "standing next to each other in the last scene" is not, in fact, equivalent to last being seen furiously making out in a maternity wedding dress

Especially since we've got various staff members stating that the scene wasn't necessarily meant as romantic, and in particular coming out very explicitly against the inane Mari = Moyoco theory which is just a sophisticated equivalent of teenage girls hating the hot lead singer's girlfriend
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Re: The possible meta-commentary of Asuka's NTE backstory

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Postby Luigi shinji » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:20 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Why would he? You're making it sound like it was unintentional.

It was intentional for sure, sorry if I was ambiguous (again my english is not the best).

What I wanted to say is that I think some people took the wrong message from the original show. From what I see it's a common statement that EVA is critical to otaku culture and the message of the show was to stop running away from reality.
Now I don't know that really the case and that was Anno's intention, but if it was than it was failure. I'm not an expert on the topic but from what I heared the otaku/hikikomori situation just got worst ever since the 90's.
I don't want to say Anno has to do anything with this becouse I really don't think that's the case.

However I think a lot young otaku could saw Shinjis desparet need for Asuka as legitimately romantic rathern then being what it was (to my interpretation atleast): an example of a relationship go wrong.

But I don't think I'm capable to understand Evangelion as deeply as other people on this forum like you so I'm not sure, I just think becouse of this Anno could of felt that he need to do something with Eva again, becouse he got into a "Death of the Author" situation.

(Again sorry if I'm too confusing)

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So that’s probably why he decided to have Shinji paired up with Mari instead of Asuka, with both of them running off and leaving her behind.


Well thats how I saw it

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