Lilith as the Second Angel

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby AsukaShikinami10 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:13 pm

I don't know why Lilith is still accounted as an Angel in NTE continuity and ADAMS are the ones accounted as being something else. They said we were supposed to get rid of all the Angels (and I think that statement also includes Lilith, as she is the second Angel). So I think this is a missed chance to change the status of Lilith into other divine being being different from the Angels. If Lilith is supposed to be mother of the mankind, shouldn't she be supposed to have the fruit of knowledge?

What's the point in making her an Angel again? I think it is a huge mistake making her the second Angel when Gendoh made it clear that humanity have to kill all the Angels in order to take their places as children of the Gods. Was Lilith aware of here fate in this continuity?

And what about the covenant Seele had with Lilith? What is it about and how does it comes to make sense given that Seele chose to anihilate all Angels? I still don't understand what was the covenant and how it could come into play if the 12th Angel wouldn't have had access to Mark.06 (was it part of Seele's plan all along?)

I think these movies had the potential to change Lilith's origin as an Angel and make her be something else, like in the case of the ADAMS. I think it doesn't make sense saying we have to slay all the Angels if Lilith is still one of them too. More so, the Lilin are not accounted as being the last Angel as in EoE (I know they're different continuities), but they are still descendants of Lilith.

ADAMS are still not counted as Angels, so what are they? What's their purpose? And why is there five of them? Do they ate any of the seed from the tree of life? re they another potential lifeform? Why aren't they accounted as Angels?



I still have a lot of questions about all of this in my mind but I'm not able to translate them into words yet.

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby DantesInferno » Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:58 am

I think it's very possible that Lilith was already "dead" in some sense at the beginning of the story. Seele talk about the resurrecting her, so perhaps it's about annihilating all the other angels as well, and then reviving Lilith alone.

I was under the assumption that said "Lilith resurrection" was perhaps what happened offscreen during Third Impact (only to have her killed once again! Beheaded, impaled, disemboweled and deflaked, just to be sure!).

But In 3.0+1.0, Fuyutsuki mentions the "artificial recreation of Lilith" when the first two ships spread their wings of light around the Black Moon, so perhaps they were referring to this rite all long.

It isn't clear either whether Lilith too was "left behind by someone not human" like the Adams, and if it ultimately has similar origins.

We know that one of the options left to humanity is to annihilate the angels, renounce the Fruit of Knowledge, acquire the Fruit of Life, and live forever as God's children (replacing the Angels). This pretty much assumes that angel equals Fruit of Life, so Lilith is clearly on a different league.

So yeah, we pretty much don't know anything yet :D

EDIT: Or maybe, maybe, Anno didn't have it all figured out just yet in 2006 when the first movie came out (some people will burn me at the stake for suggesting this!), so he went ahead and referred to Lilith as the 2nd angel, unchanged from the NGE setting.

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Raikyu » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:59 am

Recently, I've been thinking if the "artificial recreation of Lilith" is a not the original Lilith, but an EVA unit. Maybe unit-01 is a clone of Lilith in this continuity too.

I think that Lilith can still be an angel just like the Lilin are.

Edit: The other possibility is that Gendo used the Eva Imaginary to recreate Lilith (in GNR form). I think that Eva Imaginary can become anything, just like a chess pawn can turn into any other chess piece

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Anchorhead » Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:03 pm

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this exact mystery lately. I don't really have an answer, but some observations:

  • Though Lilith is the one that sticks out most obviously as an "abnormal" Angel, she's probably not the only one. Like in NGE, the First Angel is probably also a Weird One who's very different from 3-12. I think it's very likely that Kaworu as we see him on screen isn't the original form of the First Angel, and if he's not, that would mean we don't actually know *what* the First Angel is. But we do know that it would be older than Lilith, since it came before her.
  • Just my two cents, but I don't think Lilith is actually dead at the start of Rebuild, and I don't think she truly "dies" until Fourth Impact, if at all. Remember in 3.0, when Kaworu and Shinji are in Lilith's chamber? Kaworu is puzzled by something, and when he finally realizes what's going on (without bothering to actually explain, as is his way), that realization is immediately followed by a shot of Lilith's head, still leaking LCL. Kaworu has realized that one of his assumptions was wrong, and the meaningful shot is probably meant to reveal that Lilith is not, in fact, dead. Plus, her head is apparently still *spiritually* attached to her body, if not physically, because it explodes at the same time as her body does. If you put all this together, Lilith would seem to be no more dead post-3i than she is pre-3i. So SEELE's desired "resurrection" might not mean bringing her back from literal death, but restoring her to a former state of glory.
  • I'm not entirely sure that we've ruled out that "Angels" and "Adams" are overlapping categories. Angels as a category can apparently include some surprisingly non-Angely things, like Evas (Unit-03, possibly Eva-13) and (mostly-)humans (Asuka, Kaworu). Lilith's resemblance to the Adams and total non-resemblance to any other angels seems to me to indicate there's a relationship there. As DantesInferno pointed out, it may just be that "Angel" is a catch-all for any creature with the true Fruit of Life, which would include the Adams as a subgroup. If so, it would confirm my suspicion that Lilith originally had the FoL, but lost it (presumably, this is related to her chest scar -- she must have had a core, right?)

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby DantesInferno » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:40 am

View Original PostAnchorhead wrote:I've spent a lot of time thinking about this exact mystery lately. I don't really have an answer, but some observations:

  • Though Lilith is the one that sticks out most obviously as an "abnormal" Angel, she's probably not the only one. Like in NGE, the First Angel is probably also a Weird One who's very different from 3-12. I think it's very likely that Kaworu as we see him on screen isn't the original form of the First Angel, and if he's not, that would mean we don't actually know *what* the First Angel is. But we do know that it would be older than Lilith, since it came before her.


Kaworu as the First Angel must come before Lilith, so he must exist in some alternate form before emerging from the coffin. I think maybe Seele uses the coffins (the lids have the Seele logo) to "salvage" his soul into the lilim-like body we all know and love.

View Original PostAnchorhead wrote:
  • Just my two cents, but I don't think Lilith is actually dead at the start of Rebuild, and I don't think she truly "dies" until Fourth Impact, if at all. Remember in 3.0, when Kaworu and Shinji are in Lilith's chamber? Kaworu is puzzled by something, and when he finally realizes what's going on (without bothering to actually explain, as is his way), that realization is immediately followed by a shot of Lilith's head, still leaking LCL. Kaworu has realized that one of his assumptions was wrong, and the meaningful shot is probably meant to reveal that Lilith is not, in fact, dead. Plus, her head is apparently still *spiritually* attached to her body, if not physically, because it explodes at the same time as her body does. If you put all this together, Lilith would seem to be no more dead post-3i than she is pre-3i. So SEELE's desired "resurrection" might not mean bringing her back from literal death, but restoring her to a former state of glory.


This is very interesting. Yeah, Lilith's "death" is a complicated issue, to say the least. We never hear of here being actually "killed"; Kaworu refers to the body at Dogma using the word mukuro. According to Japanese Dictionary website Kotobank (link: https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/躯_%28むくろ%29/) the possible meanings are:

    1. Corpse. Remains. Alternatively, headless corpse.
    2. Fallen tree trunk
    3. Body. Especially, torso.

(all translations mine)

and he refers to it as "what used to be her". Now that you mention it, I think the cut to the head shot when Kaworu has his realization is quite meaningful.

Kaworu's confusion regarding the spears is interesting too: He literally says:

Both spears changed form, and now they match

(emphasis mine)

...which is not consistent with him expecting one of each type: he should have said that one of the spears (Cassius) changed form, and now they match (i.e., they're both Longinus). I think maybe he is not aware of the "javelin" (sharp stick) configuration of the Longinus spears, only the "Fork" (open) one, so at first he thinks they both belong to a third, unknown type of spear? You would think that such a knowledgeable character as Kaworu would know...

View Original PostAnchorhead wrote:
  • I'm not entirely sure that we've ruled out that "Angels" and "Adams" are overlapping categories. Angels as a category can apparently include some surprisingly non-Angely things, like Evas (Unit-03, possibly Eva-13) and (mostly-)humans (Asuka, Kaworu). Lilith's resemblance to the Adams and total non-resemblance to any other angels seems to me to indicate there's a relationship there. As DantesInferno pointed out, it may just be that "Angel" is a catch-all for any creature with the true Fruit of Life, which would include the Adams as a subgroup. If so, it would confirm my suspicion that Lilith originally had the FoL, but lost it (presumably, this is related to her chest scar -- she must have had a core, right?)
[/list]


I still think Eva-03 was simply infected with the 9th angel, whose actual nature is the blue goo around the entry plug. So Evas and angels (3-12) are entirely separate entities, the former related to the Adams in some way, the latter not. The same for Asuka (although some people are working on the theory that she was the 9th angel all along - not sure how that fits with there being multiple clones of her)... and Kaworu, I think in a similar way as NGE, he's still 100% angel, 100% Fruit of Like-based life form, that just so happens to resemble the lilim for some reason (In NGE it was the final evolutionary step in adapting to life on Earth, in NTE...?). I mean, a human wouldn't burst into LCL when decapitated...

Interesting idea that Lilith might have lost the Fruit of Life at some point. This falls in line with Eve (and Adam) in genesis, which are expelled from the Garden of Eden after having eaten the Fruit of Knowledge (= the original sin), lest they also eat the Fruit of Life and become equal to God or something along those lines. The idea of "purification" is pervasive, in the red earth and the sea, most strongly at Antarctica, where the L-field does not let in any FoK-based life (i.e., tainted with the Original Sin). Fuyutsuki mentions this "free from the original Sin" idea from the space shuttle, and Takao? again when pointing out that they're
able to navigate through it thanks to Kahn's data and the anti-L system (likely the Wunder has active pillars operating inside it, or equivalent tech).

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Konja7 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:56 am

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:Kaworu's confusion regarding the spears is interesting too: He literally says:

Both spears changed form, and now they match

(emphasis mine)

...which is not consistent with him expecting one of each type: he should have said that one of the spears (Cassius) changed form, and now they match (i.e., they're both Longinus). I think maybe he is not aware of the "javelin" (sharp stick) configuration of the Longinus spears, only the "Fork" (open) one, so at first he thinks they both belong to a third, unknown type of spear? You would think that such a knowledgeable character as Kaworu would know...

Yeah. It's a pretty curious phrase.

In 3.0, Kaworu expected that the Spear of Longinus and the Spear of Cassius would be stabbed in Lilith. So, only one of them (Cassius) was changed.

Maybe the "Both spears changed form" is just a way to speak from Kaworu, but the really important is "and now they match".



View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:and Kaworu, I think in a similar way as NGE, he's still 100% angel, 100% Fruit of Like-based life form, that just so happens to resemble the lilim for some reason (In NGE it was the final evolutionary step in adapting to life on Earth, in NTE...?). I mean, a human wouldn't burst into LCL when decapitated...

Are we sure that Kaworu burst into LCL?

We see that Rei Q burst into LCL, but I always assumed the liquid that appeared when Kaworu's head exploded was blood.

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Zoop » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:54 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original PostDantesInferno#931349 wrote:We see that Rei Q burst into LCL, but I always assumed the liquid that appeared when Kaworu's head exploded was blood.


Agreed, pretty sure there's brain chunks (making it that more traumatizing to Shinji)
Also, Kaworu is supposed to be still in the Eva, head destroyed, but still there (theres this quote of his fingers still twitching on the controls).
I dont think that could be the case if he lost his at-field, ego destroyed, thus reduced to lcl.

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Konja7 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:10 am

View Original PostZoop wrote:Agreed, pretty sure there's brain chunks (making it that more traumatizing to Shinji)
Also, Kaworu is supposed to be still in the Eva, head destroyed, but still there (theres this quote of his fingers still twitching on the controls).
I dont think that could be the case if he lost his at-field, ego destroyed, thus reduced to lcl.


I should mention Yamashita said Kaworu's body (without a soul) was reconstructed.

https://twitter.com/ikuto_yamashita/sta ... 6170343426

This is a translation by Nuclear Lunchbox:

"We only said so much at the discussion today. In Shin Evangelion, this is what's actually inside the reactivated Unit 13's entry plug. Inside the LCL, the remains of what used to be him are floating about. Even with his soul gone, his body was reconstructed to allow Unit 13 to move, and his fingers sometimes flutter on the control keys."


To be clear, I don't think Kaworu burst into LCL in 3.0. I just need to mention we can't use Yamashita's words to deny that.

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:49 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:https://twitter.com/ikuto_yamashita/sta ... 6170343426

This is a translation by Nuclear Lunchbox:

"We only said so much at the discussion today. In Shin Evangelion, this is what's actually inside the reactivated Unit 13's entry plug. Inside the LCL, the remains of what used to be him are floating about. Even with his soul gone, his body was reconstructed to allow Unit 13 to move, and his fingers sometimes flutter on the control keys."



That right there is pretty freaking creepy.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
~('.'~) (~'.')~ Dancin Kirby

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Postby DantesInferno » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:44 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Are we sure that Kaworu burst into LCL?


I meant the red, blood-like type of LCL that all angels burst into when the core is destroyed, not the orange, EoE-style LCL (a.k.a. "Tang") that Rei and (later) Fuyutsuki burst into.

I think the red stuff too is referred to as LCL in the NTE continuity...? (not sure what would be the in-universe explanation behind the discrepancy in color and consistency)

In any case, a human wouldn't explode into a gigantic pool of blood (and basically nothing else? no arms, legs?) like that. To me, it's looks like all or most of what made him was turned into red liquid.

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:58 am

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:In any case, a human wouldn't explode into a gigantic pool of blood (and basically nothing else? no arms, legs?) like that. To me, it's looks like all or most of what made him was turned into red liquid.

IIRC, we don't see if Kaworu's body explode into a gigantic pool of blood. We see that Kaworu's head explode by DSS Choker, but we don't see what happened exactly happened with his body, right?

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Gendo's Glasses » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:00 am

In the original series, Lilith's title as the 'second Angel' arises from the fact that Angel is a label applied by SEELE/NERV to, essentially, what is easily shorthanded as a form of alien life. But as we know, Angels are descended from Adam, so, Lilith cannot be an Angel. Therefore, the whole naming and counting system in NGE is unreliable. This is backed up the video game stuff that says Lilith and Adam are seeds or whatever.

I'm not sure how that holds up in NTE given the revelation of the Scrolls that seem to provide a conclusive account of the Angels, Evangelions and so on on a level that we don't really get in the original series. But even then, if the vast winged being at the bottom is Lillith, then it's likely she's something else, too. As noted, there's also the 'covenant with Lilith' which seems to rely on the destruction of all Angels. I'd argue this precludes Lillith being an Angel as well. So, it could be that NERV considers Lilith an Angel even though she technically isn't. Given that Angels don't appear to be descended from Adams, I'd say it's a similar case of an label applied with imperfect knowledge -- which is complicated by the aforementioned ancient scrolls, or is it?

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Postby DantesInferno » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:03 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original PostDantesInferno#931414 wrote:In any case, a human wouldn't explode into a gigantic pool of blood (and basically nothing else? no arms, legs?) like that. To me, it's looks like all or most of what made him was turned into red liquid.

IIRC, we don't see if Kaworu's body explode into a gigantic pool of blood. We see that Kaworu's head explode by DSS Choker, but we don't see what happened exactly happened with his body, right?


Perhaps the word "pool" wasn't appropriate (because we never see the liquid "settle"), but what I meant is that the quantity that splashes into the entry plug wall was too much for something other than typical angel "image collapse"...

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Postby nerv bae » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:20 am

View Original PostGendo's Glasses wrote:In the original series, Lilith's title as the 'second Angel' arises from the fact that Angel is a label applied by SEELE/NERV to, essentially, what is easily shorthanded as a form of alien life. But as we know, Angels are descended from Adam, so, Lilith cannot be an Angel. Therefore, the whole naming and counting system in NGE is unreliable. This is backed up the video game stuff that says Lilith and Adam are seeds or whatever.

I'm not sure how that holds up in NTE given the revelation of the Scrolls that seem to provide a conclusive account of the Angels, Evangelions and so on on a level that we don't really get in the original series. But even then, if the vast winged being at the bottom is Lillith, then it's likely she's something else, too. As noted, there's also the 'covenant with Lilith' which seems to rely on the destruction of all Angels. I'd argue this precludes Lillith being an Angel as well. So, it could be that NERV considers Lilith an Angel even though she technically isn't. Given that Angels don't appear to be descended from Adams, I'd say it's a similar case of an label applied with imperfect knowledge -- which is complicated by the aforementioned ancient scrolls, or is it?

It would be a nice parallelism if Lilith is fundamentally misunderstood in both NGE (as Adam) and NTE (as an angel).

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Adam » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:52 am

View Original PostGendo's Glasses wrote:In the original series, Lilith's title as the 'second Angel' arises from the fact that Angel is a label applied by SEELE/NERV to, essentially, what is easily shorthanded as a form of alien life. But as we know, Angels are descended from Adam, so, Lilith cannot be an Angel. Therefore, the whole naming and counting system in NGE is unreliable. This is backed up the video game stuff that says Lilith and Adam are seeds or whatever.

I'm not sure how that holds up in NTE given the revelation of the Scrolls that seem to provide a conclusive account of the Angels, Evangelions and so on on a level that we don't really get in the original series. But even then, if the vast winged being at the bottom is Lillith, then it's likely she's something else, too. As noted, there's also the 'covenant with Lilith' which seems to rely on the destruction of all Angels. I'd argue this precludes Lillith being an Angel as well. So, it could be that NERV considers Lilith an Angel even though she technically isn't. Given that Angels don't appear to be descended from Adams, I'd say it's a similar case of an label applied with imperfect knowledge -- which is complicated by the aforementioned ancient scrolls, or is it?


From End of Eva:

Misato: "Shinji-kun, we humans were born from the one called Lilith -- a source of life, just like Adam. We are the 18th Angel."

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Gendo's Glasses » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:16 am

View Original PostAdam wrote:
From End of Eva:

Misato: "Shinji-kun, we humans were born from the one called Lilith -- a source of life, just like Adam. We are the 18th Angel."


I thank you for the textual citation supporting my post but I'm not sure it's necessary? Lillith is designated as an Angel by NERV, but she is in actuality a Seed of Life equivalent to Adam with her own evolutionary path, hence Lilin. Misato's "18th Angel" comment has always been given undue significance by the fandom and should best be understood by the simple fact that NERV is currently being assaulted by humans who are set on causing Third Impact -- it's metaphor. Or, if not metaphor, an unwieldy attempt to communicate that Angels and Lilin are both forms of life spawned by a Seed and therefore 'more similar than you think.' Otherwise, you'd think people would remember that Adam-life possesses the Fruit of Life while Lillith-life possesses the Fruit of Knowledge!

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Re: Lilith as the Second Angel

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Postby Adam » Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:39 am

View Original PostGendo's Glasses wrote:
I thank you for the textual citation supporting my post but I'm not sure it's necessary? Lillith is designated as an Angel by NERV, but she is in actuality a Seed of Life equivalent to Adam with her own evolutionary path, hence Lilin. Misato's "18th Angel" comment has always been given undue significance by the fandom and should best be understood by the simple fact that NERV is currently being assaulted by humans who are set on causing Third Impact -- it's metaphor. Or, if not metaphor, an unwieldy attempt to communicate that Angels and Lilin are both forms of life spawned by a Seed and therefore 'more similar than you think.' Otherwise, you'd think people would remember that Adam-life possesses the Fruit of Life while Lillith-life possesses the Fruit of Knowledge!

Blood patterns are different, so why would Lilith and man be counted as angels? Perhaps since Adam landed on Earth first, so everything which came after him had to follow suit. But probably they (or Anno in particular) didn't pay too much attention to this and this was all decided in a whim anyway back then :emogendo:

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Postby DantesInferno » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:13 am

Let's all stop to ponder at the irony that user "Adam", currently at 100 posts, has forum rank of "Lilith" :D

(and I have rank "Tunniel", with an avatar that depicts some dude rising from the underground...)


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