Why do you think Asuka caressed Shinji before saying "How disgusting"? To me these two things seem to clearly contradict each other so I wanted to hear what are your thoughts and possible interpretations. I've looked on the internet for possible explanations but it appears that people are only able to explain Asuka's actions separately without taking into account that they happen one after another.

The "caressing while being strangled" is actually based on an irl event Anno heard from a friend, and is supposed to parallel what we saw Yui do earlier. For Asuka's perspective, I can only assume she's doing the thing Anno heard someone do for real, but also it represents a simple action of reaching out to comfort instead of hurt, which is something both Asuka and Shinji have had trouble with the entire series.

I'm going to ignore the "How disgusting" line because that's not really what's being said. "Kimochi warui" very inelegantly and literally means "Feels bad." When you have anime girls sunbathing or bathing and saying how nice it is, they're saying "kimochi" which is just "Feels (Nice)." "Kimochi warui" is primarily used in situations where you might literally be feeling physically unwell (like in NGE itself in #1 when Shinji swallows LCL the first time) or if you find a situation or location or person('s actions) creepy. In my limited experience, if someone feels genuinely fearful or unsettled, they tend to use different phrasing; while "kimochi warui" tends to be somewhat more light-hearted. With more recent viewings of EoE, along with Yuko's delivery, I tend to interpret it as and almost borderline comical understatement for the sobbing boy on top of her, the instrumentality process, her death, the events of the last 90 minutes, and the series as a whole.

In short, the caress represents a babystep towards connection, not an outpouring of love; and "kimochi warui" is just a blunt statement, not an expression of hatred or disgust. They're lightly contradictory because Asuka's still Asuka and she's gonna bite, but they're not exactly diametrically opposed things.

Szmitten wrote:
In short, the caress represents a babystep towards connection, not an outpouring of love; and "kimochi warui" is just a blunt statement, not an expression of hatred or disgust. They're lightly contradictory because Asuka's still Asuka and she's gonna bite, but they're not exactly diametrically opposed things.

Interesting, so what you're saying is that Asuka is still somewhat of a tsundere/tough girl type (which explains the "kimochi warui") but she mellowed out a bit towards Shinji (which explains her caress) am I correct?
Anyhow, thank you for your interpretation, I wasn't aware of possible issues regarding the translation.

1rate wrote:

Szmitten#930371 wrote:
In short, the caress represents a babystep towards connection, not an outpouring of love; and "kimochi warui" is just a blunt statement, not an expression of hatred or disgust. They're lightly contradictory because Asuka's still Asuka and she's gonna bite, but they're not exactly diametrically opposed things.

Interesting, so what you're saying is that Asuka is still somewhat of a tsundere/tough girl type (which explains the "kimochi warui") but she mellowed out a bit towards Shinji (which explains her caress) am I correct?
Anyhow, thank you for your interpretation, I wasn't aware of possible issues regarding the translation.

It is just my current interpretation based on a bunch of recent learning, and you'll get very different answers from others. I mainly wanted to step in and say that "How disgusting" is kinda...while mainstream and "official" in english releases, is a misleading translation with busted direction/performance that doesn't help or fix the wording and ruins it for everyone.

But yes. It's the destruction of the hedgehog's dilemma.

1rate wrote:Interesting, so what you're saying is that Asuka is still somewhat of a tsundere/tough girl type

Asuka is not a tsundere or a tough girl - those are two different character types, by the way, with the typical anime "tough girl" having a more gangsterish look than we see from any of the Eva pilots. Asuka is misinterpreted as one because some of her character behaviors are outwardly similar to that of a tsundere, but she's a horribly traumatized person struggling to gain the attention of others and deeply in denial of her own emotional needs. The typical tsundere acts the way they do because they're lovestruck, but Asuka acts the way she does in part because she's trying to fight away the emotional trauma surrounding her mother and the neglect shown by her father. Whether or not she's genuinely romantically interested in Shinji as opposed to seeking affection or validation from an Eva pilot of the opposite sex wouldn't actually make much of a difference.

"How disgusting" is an attempt to render a line that is somewhat ambiguous in context as one of open disgust, which is understandable (if not necessarily accurate) considering the very cold tone of voice adopted in that scene. Like Szmitten said, "kimochi warui" is very context-dependent, and the choice of words allows for a certain degree of ambiguity about what makes Asuka feels bad or exactly how bad she feels. Japanese as a language tends to be far more accepting of ambiguity than English and Japanese speakers tend to indirectly talk about people or things that English speakers typically make explicit.

Szmitten wrote:The "caressing while being strangled" ..............

I like this explanation very much!

It might also be worth stating some of the extra behind the scenes stuff, some quoted often, some less often:

-There was a version of the ending where Shinji is holding someone's hand and talks about the possibility of nobody never coming back and it's revealed to be a severed arm.

-As I said, the strangulation comes from a friend of Anno who's boyfriend got violent and tried to strangle her, and her bizarro survival instinct was to touch his face, which seemed to disarm the situation.

-Another version of the ending is exactly the same as what we got except for Asuka kicking her grave marker in half and after the choking says "Like hell I'd let you kill me."

-This is often quoted, but in rewriting the last line, Anno asked Yuko how she'd feel if someone snuck into her room and jacked off to her, and that's how you got "kimochi warui."

-Anno has apparently implied the possibility that the final scene might not be 100% literally happening nor a timeskip and that it's internally treated like a short film within a film.

Szmitten wrote:-This is often quoted, but in rewriting the last line, Anno asked Yuko how she'd feel if someone snuck into her room and jacked off to her, and that's how you got "kimochi warui."

Although I really liked your interpretation, if that's the case, wouldn't it imply that "how disgusting" is actually a very accurate translation and thus, "kimochi warui", isn't a light hearted comment?

1rate wrote:

Szmitten#930428 wrote:-This is often quoted, but in rewriting the last line, Anno asked Yuko how she'd feel if someone snuck into her room and jacked off to her, and that's how you got "kimochi warui."

Although I really liked your interpretation, if that's the case, wouldn't it imply that "how disgusting" is actually a very accurate translation and thus, "kimochi warui", isn't a light hearted comment?

Not really, because even in that context she's sorta saying the equivalent of "I'd be creeped/grossed out/That's unsettling." And once you have that line and recontextualise it into the scene it's being used in, it neutralises itself and takes on the other meanings again.

Translation is very weird. If "Angel Attack" wasn't already presented as "Angel Attack" you could make a case for "An Angel Attack," "An Angel Attacks," "The Angel Attack," "The Angel Attacks," "The Angels Attack," and more, each of which changes the meaning slightly (tense and plurality). I still butt heads over "SEELE: Throne/Seat/Gathering/Meeting of the Souls."

You can't really cling to an english translation because it's inherently a Japanese script, and while thesaurus gymnastics are doable, the work is fundamentally in its native language. I always consider the line as "kimochi warui," not because I know the language, but I get the gist of what it means and don't need an attempted localisation. Like how you might not need "Hai" translated to "Yes sir" because you're familiar with it being used as an affirmative. Or how "Tadaima" "Okaerinasai" don't literally mean "I'm home" "Welcome home" but they're equivalent-ish.

Szmitten wrote:-Anno has apparently implied the possibility that the final scene might not be 100% literally happening nor a timeskip and that it's internally treated like a short film within a film.

Interesting, I don't recall this particular tidbit. Or perhaps I heard it so long ago that I plumb forgot he said that...

UrsusArctos wrote:

Szmitten#930428 wrote:-Anno has apparently implied the possibility that the final scene might not be 100% literally happening nor a timeskip and that it's internally treated like a short film within a film.

Interesting, I don't recall this particular tidbit. Or perhaps I heard it so long ago that I plumb forgot he said that...

For once I have a source. It's https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... aForever-5 and is quoting ""Koji Ide's Evangelion Forever" (Amuse Books)" seemingly based on Megumi Ogata's words.

That page is filled with translations of questionable quality from unknown sources (and is therefore highly unreliable), so take that source with a big grain of salt.

@UrsusActor but there are sources all-around in the article, what's wrong with them? The translation? For the information mentioned above, it's here.

RussianRiz wrote:For the information mentioned above, it's here.

That's actually the information for the point below - there's never been any question about Ogata choking Miyamura or its translation. Szmitten was referring to the point above that (I removed that translation until I can find out who translated it and how good they are), and that's the one that's questionable. But thank you for pointing me to Richitzer's translation on the forum, that looks interesting!

By "translations of questionable quality from unknown sources" I mean the source of the translation, not the original source. In the past we've had translations added to the wiki from anonymous sources, often without a way to verify the quality or make sure that the translation is faithful to the source material. This is important since we've had instances where translators have deliberately omitted or distorted information. We have also had blatantly bad faith attempts to edit the wiki to support Asuka x Shinji shipping, which is entirely against wiki policies.

I put those templates in as a reminder that the article probably has poorly translated statements or dubious information coming from bad translations, since I have encountered similar issues on articles of that sort before.

wow, the article has been severely modified!

Are you sure "cardass" is a good source? I mean, following the One Piece fandom, I know how this type of material gets disputed all over the fandom. Taking this into account above interviews, as much as they have their limitations in their translation, takes away some interesting insights and nuances that previously existed. That doesn't need to include implications on ships, but factors such as the real-world implications of the shoking scene were quite helpful in contextualizing and helping to explain the scene, especially given the way in which it is presented. There is even a topic here about a possible Hegelian conception of that scene that I particularly like. And it's just sad that it all get lost in a theory and analysis page.

Please excuse the mess. The article is still a work in progress, and I have not finished all the modifications necessary. I had the time today to do something, but the rest of the cleanup might have to wait.

Regarding the Cardass masters' game, it's honestly somewhat difficult to figure out how much credence to give it. The wiki actually links to two dissenting opinions from the Eva Mailing List 20 years ago - Adam Green Kalafarski thought it was untrustworthy, but Bochan_Bird argued that it did not contradict anything seen in the series. The card game is something I'm not entirely familiar with and haven't had time to look into myself, so I personally err on the side of caution - I should perhaps add that whatever the game says should be treated with some caution.

RussianRiz wrote:topic.

That has been on my "to-read" list here for long enough, thank you for reminding me of it! I would love to incorporate it into the wiki if the original poster is happy with it.