In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby Archer » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:19 pm

Seele is a bunch of Bible nerds who want to slap the trappings of their own apocalypse onto something that doesn’t inherently have anything to do with humanity at all. The Angel names aren’t their actual names but just code-names arbitrarily assigned to them that someone clearly put some thought into to make them thematically appropriate, because they’re giga-tier Bible nerds. Hell, why “Angels” in the first place? Maybe if someone had been feeling a bit different the day they decided on the names they would’ve called them “Apostles” instead, and named them after the apostles of Christ, of which there are conveniently 13. The fact that they happen to create a giant cross in the sky when they die is really just a lucky coincidence.

Anyway, that’s my headcanon for all the mostly-nonsense Biblical references in Evangelion.

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Re: In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:38 am

View Original PostArcher wrote:Maybe if someone had been feeling a bit different the day they decided on the names they would’ve called them “Apostles”

Which they did in the Japanese, of course.

and named them after the apostles of Christ, of which there are conveniently 13.

which wouldn't have been so convenient really, as NGE had more than that.
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Re: In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:19 am

View Original PostArcher wrote:Seele is a bunch of Bible nerds who want to slap the trappings of their own apocalypse onto something that doesn’t inherently have anything to do with humanity at all.

You know what, I can totally see churches doing this IRL if something as catastrophic as Second or Third Impact were to actually happen.

lol, what am I saying? We’ve seen certain (though not all) churches react that way to smaller catastrophes and even to non-catastrophic events.

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Re: In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:47 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:You know what, I can totally see churches doing this IRL if something as catastrophic as Second or Third Impact were to actually happen.


The Church of Nerv tried to put the date of Second Impact as "25-12-2012" and then "25-12-2013". No idea what they did after that.
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Re: In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:05 pm

I think you are a bit too entrenched in your own worldview/view on religion here. The entire premise of your argument revolves around the idea that the Biblical stuff is, in fact, nonsense in-universe or at all. Even if it were nonsense in-universe, Judaism, Christianity, and more specifically, Kabbalism and Gnosticism have enough ideas and concepts in common with mythology, spirituality, religion, and philosophy from around the world to warrant critical investigation as to why. The fact is that the shared concepts, when analyzed, give insight into greater truths underlying the human condition and human psyche. They are cultural interpretations of bottom-up mental and psychological processes resulting from the very structure of our nervous systems and biology that have been classified and organized into a hierarchical system of beliefs.

They are essentially the expression of the human soul spun into narrative weaves that evolve endlessly over millennia. The fact that so many converge on these ideas is how the relevant memetic information, the so-called truths, persist and become more distinct over time, while junk information that becomes irrelevant over time is generally cast aside. Unfortunately, there can never be a point where all the junk memetic data has been filtered out, because both individually and collectively (i.e., nations and cultures), people are products of their geography, circumstances, and most specifically, the time/era in which they exist and the ideas arose, the most relevant data can only be condensed, but never fully separated from the more transient, irrelevant data (as it serves as the context or lens through which the concepts can be understood).

The point here is that Evangelion is meant to serve as its own context for the relevant memetic information that's been shared across the centuries and millennia regardless of the cultures they originated from (Kabbalism, Gnosticism, Hermeticism/other forms of esoteric wisdom, the greater whole of Judaism and Christianity themselves, Hinduism, various sects Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, Babylonian mythology, Egyptian mythology, Greek and Roman mythology, Freudian/Jungian/Lacanian psychoanalytics and depth psychology... the list literally goes on and on). The context here is merely the medium by which the information, the so-called greater truths of the human condition and human psyche to be disseminated through. The very world and narrative fabric from which NGE is cut and then patched and sewn together serves as the very Ark, the book, the Bible, the "good word" (which evangelion roughly translates to in Greek), the means by which the "Salvation" is delivered to a new audience through. Hence, "Neon Genesis Evangelion", the new birth of the good word/salvation, which can be interpreted both as meaning the rebirth of good word that saves, the birth of a new good word that has been "updated" so to speak, or even the telling of a brand new tale of Genesis. All of these are appropriate descriptions of NGE in their own particular ways. It's a story meant to "save" Otaku and people facing the same issues with its themes and narrative, making it like a Bible in its own right. The conditions at the end of EoE the conditions surrounding the story of Genesis have been recreated as well. It's all very multi-layered, both intentionally and as a result of the unconscious mind expressing itself over and over throughout the various cultural works and beliefs, which results in a sort of reflections of reflections of reflections/reflections all the way down effect as a result of the same cycle of unconscious expression and re-expression of the human psyche throughout history.

Hell, even the very idea of Eva being a story that "repeats" or goes through cycles is symbolic in layers. Human nature leads to the same cycles of history over and over, both on an individual and collective level. Our ideas, concepts, narratives, and beliefs all cycle this way. It is as the very core of our being. The story itself being set up this way is what makes NGE so human to people. In that way it is both timeless, yet extremely relevant to the time period from which it originated... or more succinctly, in both an absolute and relative way. This applies to us as human beings ourselves. We share the human condition with literally every other human that has walked the Earth, yet our experiences have much more specific generational influences that make them unique to us individually. You'll find this apparent infinite mirroring or reflecting of human experience and the psyche all the way down can be summed up in the maxim, "As above, so below", also expressed as the idea "the essential nature of the microcosm is also the essential nature of the macrocosm". This tenet is a core idea in Buddhism, as well as Kabbalism, Gnosticism, and Hermeticism. It is also known as the Principle of Correspondence. It asserts that there are unique incidental details to individual beings/entities/or systems, but that all beings, entities, and systems share essential principles, aspects, and/or features with one another throught out the entirety of the universe/existence as a whole. This level of essential correspondence is not restricted to or limited by material existence or perception, but instead transcends all of reality... that is, it permeates our shared surroundings/the material world and the boundaries of the imaginary and metaphysical, uniting the two. Taoist/Buddhist symbol of the Taijitu, or the Yin-Yang symbol represents the divide. and therefore, the duality between material reality and mental reality. But the Taijitu is just the Bright/Light/Sunny side and Dark/Shady side compared with one another. The Taijitu is surrounded by a black outline, known in Taoism as the Tao, which is actually a Third aspect of reality serving as a vessel or "primordial womb" for the other two. The concept of all 3 unified in their entirety, a single entity unto itself that becomes the sum that is greater than its parts, is the Taiju.

In the framework of Hermeticism, this concept is known and referred to as the ALL, which is a form of being that transcends the very concepts of states of being, the act of being classified, recognized, or even comprehended. It is infinite, in the sense it is beyond restriction or limitation. Yet the very concept of being beyond restriction and limitation imposes limits and restrictions on the subject being conceptualized and discussed, and therefore are not appropriate or accurate descriptions of the ALL or the Taiju. These concepts are merely stand-ins for this ineffable reality.... they are merely the tools we used to try and form a basic, but corrupted understanding with. Indeed, any imposition of a concept or understanding upon the conceptualization, and the very act of conceptualization itself is an imposition. The same is fundamentally true of the Taiju. Hence, they are forms of existence fundamentally incomprehensible to us as conscious beings whose self-awareness, consciousness, intellect, and ability to reason are the emergent property of fundamentally dualistic processes. The analagous concepts in Kabbalism are Ein, Ein Sof, and the Ohr Ein Sof. Alternatively (or additionally), all 3 of these concepts can be considered the Taiju, the concept of the Tzimtzum (contraction) refers to the creation of the Tao (the black outline surrounding the Taijitu/Yin-Yang that serves as an empty vessel or primordial womb for existence/creation), and the Kabbalistic Tree of Life serves asthe dualistic Yin-Yang concepts broken up into 10 or 11 divine emanations that are interconnected and possess aspects and attritributes of one another in limited degree (which is what the small opposite white and black cirles in the black and white tear drops of the Taijitu or Yin-Yang represent) and trace a path back to the root of the Tree. I say 10 or 11 because the 11th, Malkuth is conceptualized as empty and can be considerd as a divine emanation that doesn't emanate, but rather serves as the empty vessel that connects all the other emanations (aka the analog to the Tao surrounding the Taijitu) to Ein/Ein Sof/Ohr Ein Sof... indeed, it is the ONLY emanation that connects to all emanations and therefore the bridge between the pure divine and all descending levels of divine emanation down to material existence. Fundamental to all the spiritual and religious belief systems and philosophies I've mentioned is that human beings, and indeed all objects and other forms of existence, possess the unconscious desire or natural impulse to return to the source... as fractured pieces or components of a greater being or existence, to be reconciled reunified with God, the ALL, etc. We are all born or all is created fundamentally incomplete, and there is a drive toward wholeness or completeness.

Starting to draw the ridiculous amount of parallels with NGE's themes and narrative? The same is theorized regarding the human psyche by the likes of Freud, Jung, and Lacan. You no doubt have also recognized the repeating theme of one's, two's, and three's... or of the idea of the monad, diad, and triad/trinity. With Egypt you have a mental soul, bodily soul, and the body itself as a material is a psuedo-soul in its own way. They can be thought of as Intellect/Knowledge, Instincts/Drives, and the medium/vehicle/vessel for these two "forces", souls, or drives. Same goes with the Super Ego, Ego, and the Id... or the Holy Spirit, The Father, and the Son... which also has similarities with Father, Mother, Child. Or, what about the Eva Pilots, the control system (the mother's souls), and the physical forms/bodies of the Eva's themselves Ba, Ka, Vessel/mind, body, spirit. Then there's the FAR, the Seeds of Life, and their offspring; Giant Naked Rei, Humanity, and Eva-01+Yui; Man(animal+soul), Technology (the Evas), and either HIP or Eva-01+Yui or even Eva-01+Yui+Spear of Longinus together as the Tree of Life or GNR; etc. Everything is connected, everything is interlinked, everything corresponds to everything else on all other levels, or indeed, "As above, so below". The greater truth this memetic information represents resonates with itself, which is what allows us to identify it, recognize it, and understand it. The world of NGE is all just window dressing--the so called "incidental details".

So while in some respect it is true that the literal Biblical/Christian/Jewish symbolism is incidental and something picked because it was "cool" and "different" or "unfamiliar" to the average Japanese individual. the symbolism and what it represents certainly is not nonsense and cannot be dismissed as being divorced from the actual narrative. On the contrary, it's integral to the story, world, and the people in itself.

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Re: In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:03 pm

Personally, I’m still not convinced about the religious imagery in the show having any substantial meaning. Your comment is certainly interesting as a piece of “death of the author” style analysis, but it doesn’t really prove anything about the specific imagery, like the cross-shaped explosions, having an intentional meaning. I’d say it more proves that NGE draws from the same deeply ingrained human experiences that religion draws from, and that influence is the main reason for its enduring popularity. It’s an interesting point, but doesn’t have much to do with the imagery itself.

My main explanation for the imagery is what the Japanese creators have already said: it just looks cool. There are certainly some vague allusions being drawn: the cross-shaped explosions symbolize some kind of sacrifice being made, and the Tree of Life associated with Instrumentality symbolizes humanity being reborn. But I doubt that Anno has an in-depth knowledge of Kabbalistic mythology and the works of William Blake like some theorists claim.

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Re: In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby Archer » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:04 pm

You’re free to read whatever deep meaning you want into the show, but I’m going to need a lot of convincing to concede that any of that is present in the show on anything more than a vague, superficial level of similarity to real-world religious concepts.

Also, you’re asserting those as out-of-universe explanations, which is fine but I’m talking about in-universe justifications. In-universe, the Christian symbolism IS inherently meaningless, since Adam, Lilith and the Angels are explicitly alien monsters from space. The only in-universe link they have to the Abrahamic religions is that Adam/Lilith were first documented by ancient Jews to some degree in the Dead Sea Scrolls, who likely ascribed them names/roles to fit into their own myths and legends (because obviously an ancient Jew seeing the body of an impossibly huge white giant in a massive underground spherical hollow is going to think “God did it” instead of “aliens did it”).

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Re: In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:08 pm

View Original PostArcher wrote:Also, you’re asserting those as out-of-universe explanations, which is fine but I’m talking about in-universe justifications. In-universe, the Christian symbolism IS inherently meaningless, since Adam, Lilith and the Angels are explicitly alien monsters from space. The only in-universe link they have to the Abrahamic religions is that Adam/Lilith were first documented by ancient Jews to some degree in the Dead Sea Scrolls, who likely ascribed them names/roles to fit into their own myths and legends (because obviously an ancient Jew seeing the body of an impossibly huge white giant in a massive underground spherical hollow is going to think “God did it” instead of “aliens did it”).

Like I said, how do you actually know that in-universe the Christian symbolism is inherently meaningless or at the very least an arbitrary designation? We never get to see or read the Dead Sea Scrolls. It's entirely possible the DSS describe the Seeds of Life and whatnot in these very terms. That's why I led with that question before diving headlong into that rabbit hole that followed.

My point with the rest is that presumably up until roughly the 90s, human history on the planet didn't really diverge from our own (we don't have evidence of there being SoL or anything but we could never really know that, it isn't really important to my point). If these deeper symbolic meanings ARE actually a result of DNA and the structure of the human nervous system/biology, then Judeo-Christian terminology, while being arbitrary, certainly isn't total nonsense. That was really my point. Naturally this depends on your own belief system to accept as even being true or possible to begin with, but your choice of words is mainly what I have a problem with here. If you actually look up the definition of arbitrary, it doesn't mean the same thing as random. The difference is, there is a reason behind arbitrary choices. Random means there is a total lack of reason behind a decision, it is merely a statistical probability, without reason guiding the decision, that what is chosen happened to actually be what was chosen. Listing students in alphabetical order is an arbitrary decision. You could've sorted them by weight, identity, ideology, etc. The system you chose to sort them by had some intent behind it, but it did not delineate a highly specific order to things. In other words, there appears to be randomness in arbitrary decisions, but ultimately the decisions do have intent made behind them.

That said, I reject the idea that the choice for Judeo-Christian terms and symbolism was made random. It was at worst arbitrary. If your question is whether there is a specific, in-show mentioned reason for their choice, then to my knowledge nothing is ever explicitly stated as being so. I think the lack of an explicit reason makes primes the people that are both answering and asking your question to falsely attribute the the vacuum of an explicitly stated in-universe reason with a total absence of reason... or at least the absence of a valid one. Hence choosing to state the question using words like "nonsense". We've already got misconceptions concerning the supposed lack of applicability of any meaning or symbolism to the Judeo-Christian stuff because the quotes about it being "cool" or "unfamiliar". Again, I know that refers to out-of-universe selection, but the assumptions made about those OoU reasons informs a lot of people's beliefs/assumptions about the in-universe reasons given the lack of an explicit reason being stated one way or another. Despite there being no logically consistent syllogism between the OoU reason and IU reason, people still make that logical leap automatically... often not even realizing it. I think the topic warrants precise word and terminology usage.

edit: Btw, sorry if I'm coming off hostile or aggressive. I'm not a great social speaker and I shoot down and come up with ideas in the same manner in my head all the time. I apologize if I sound like an ass.

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Re: In-universe explanation for a the Biblical nonsense…

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Postby Archer » Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:09 pm

Out of universe, the reason for the arbitrary choice was “because it looked cool”, first and foremost. This is all but confirmed. Doesn’t mean there can’t be some deeper meanings/metaphors, but it’s pretty much been stated that Christianity specifically was chosen because it’s seen as an exotic religion in Japan, like how Westerners might view Hinduism or Buddhism.

In universe, the reason for the arbitrary choice was because it just so happened to be ancient Jews who stumbled across Adam and/or Lilith (how they managed to get to Japan and/or Antarctica is a mystery). It would make no real difference if they had instead been discovered by ancient Hindus and recorded in a lost fifth Veda, and we might know the giants as Brahma and Shiva instead of Lilith and Adam, and be facing Asura attacks instead of Angel attacks. And of course Seele (which probably wouldn’t be called Seele) would base its ideology on a mishmash of Eastern mysticism rather than a mishmash of Western/Abrahamic mysticism, and would be styling their plan as Samsara (rebirth/reincarnation) instead of Instrumentality (which, far as I’m aware, doesn’t even derive from any specific Abrahamic concepts beyond the general idea of enlightenment/ascension).

As far as I’m concerned, if you can arbitrarily replace the supposed Christian symbolism with the trappings of any other religion, then there can’t be any inherent special meaning to it.

I’m also gonna posit here that in universe the crosses are indeed just a happy coincidence, because the Dead Sea Scrolls predate Christ (and therefore Christianity, and therefore the cross as a religious symbol), and as far as we’re concerned, they’re the only primary source for this stuff, meaning that any specifically Christian symbolism was in fact retroactively applied by Seele, notably the crosses and the Lance of Longinus, whose religious significance didn’t exist when the Scrolls were written. Crucifixion was just a torture/execution method invented by the Persians - the only reason it has any significance is because it just so happened to be the way Jesus was killed. Without making baseless assumptions about the Eva world that would contradict the base assumption of “everything is identical to the real world until Adam and Lilith were rediscovered in the 90’s”, there’s no way to justify the Angels as being the source of the religious significance of the cross.


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