Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby TyroLuuki » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:48 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:The only other character that staff members compare the final Mari to is Kaworu

True, in the 2.0 CRCs the staff did compare Mari to Kaworu:
-As for Mari, there is a scene where she has a conversation with Shinji after he parts from Misato. She imitates Asuka’s manner of speaking there, right? Afterwards, at the climax of the battle where Unit-01 grows wings, she is staring at it from a distance…
Higuchi: If I had to say, I’d say she was like a female version of Kaworu.


I agree that if I were to compare Mari to any of the other pilots she would be the most similar to Kaworu, but like you say the similarities are pretty superficial: mysterious, optimistic, knowledgeable, laid-back, etc. Their roles in the narrative couldn't be more different, for instance Kaworu enters Shinji's life when he's at his lowest emotionally whereas Mari enters Shinji's life when he's at his best emotionally.
Regardless, It's not about how much screentime a character is given, but what is done with that screentime. Kaworu with his limited screentime in NGE achieved his role well because he contributed to the story in an unique and memorable way, same with 3.0. I'm not really sure I could say the same with Mari and I guess that's really my biggest complaint with her character. That being said I don't think Mari is a bad character or "ruined" Eva like a lot of people like to say, imo there are plenty of things in this movie to criticize before Mari, and honestly I think Asuka's character was handled far far worse than Mari's was.
Kaworu and Asuka deserved better tbh

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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Velorex » Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:37 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:
View Original PostKendrix#924903 wrote:The only other character that staff members compare the final Mari to is Kaworu - it's easy to see why, she's knowledgeable, accepting... there's a symmetry in how they appear as sources of advice & the ones seeing Gendo's plan through at the end up Q - but it's also apparent how they're sufficiently different.
Mari's a lot more 'practical'.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this. The whole mArI hAs nO cHaRaCtEr Or ScReEnTiMe people always conveniently forget that the same holds true for Kaworu, but you hardly ever see the same complaints about him


Her character literally has the least amount of screentime of any major character. Anno and Co wrote her out of most of the film for most of Rebuild's production.

you cannot compare her character to Kaworu for crying out loud. Kaworu had a whole film that involved his character interacting with Shinji, developing a bond of trust, and his death being the catalyst that directs Shinji's character for the remainder of NTE. Mari on the other hand is in a few pointless action scenes/says vauge things, and only actually talks to Shinji about 15minutes before 3+1 ends.
I've attempted to talk to you about this before on that small discord server.

In general the rebuilds have little time for mari because her character is borderline pointless.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:51 pm

View Original PostVelorex wrote:you cannot compare her character to Kaworu for crying out loud. Kaworu had a whole film that involved his character interacting with Shinji, developing a bond of trust, and his death being the catalyst that directs Shinji's character for the remainder of NTE. Mari on the other hand is in a few pointless action scenes/says vauge things, and only actually talks to Shinji about 15minutes before 3+1 ends.
I've attempted to talk to you about this before on that small discord server.


I think the comparison is with NGE Kaworu, who also has little screentime in the TV anime.

That said, NGE Kaworu has a lot of relevance in the only episode he appears. And his death has a big effect on Shinji.

Mari isn't so relevant in Rebuild movies. She seems to have a more relevant role in the last part of Shin, but her appearance is still mostly in action scenes. I think people is dissapointing for that.

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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:03 pm

With the revelation of her past in Shin, I think that Mari's function in the movies was that of a "fixer": her vast knowledge (exclusive among the people of WILLE, both before and after the timeskip) makes her almost always know what's happening and will happen, and she's using that knowledge to always give the push needed to have things go the right way :
  • in Ha she tried to convince him to get away from the Geofront, as if she knew that things won't go to hell because Kaworu was on his way and that if he gets out, Gendo won't have his awakened Eva, this one was a loss for her, because Shinji ultimately came back to pilot Unit 01 and triggered N3I, giving Gendo his awakened Eva
  • in the prequel manga she pushed Asuka to participate alongside her in operation US and be the one to retrieve the tesseract, which turned out to be the key to the success of the operation (and maybe the return of Shinji), and she was the only one who believed that he could come back, as if she knew all along that he could come back. And also she was the one who kept pushing Asuka to confront her feelings toward Shinji
  • in Q she kept her calm when the 12th Angel reappeared and EVA-13 absorbed it, as if she knew exactly what would happen, while Asuka was freaking out, it's only when Kaworu was "retrograded" to 13th Angel that Mari started to panic (and again she was the only one picking up that there shouldn't be a 13th Angel and that Gendo must be behind it)
  • again in Q she was at the ready to eject EVA-13's entry plug, which was the last necessary step to stop Fourth Impact, and even imparted him some advice while she was at it (which sadly fell on deaf ears as Shinji was completely broken at that point)
  • in Shin she was the one who helped WILLE capture the NERV Paris base to get the material necessary for the final battle (while Asuka was out of the picture)
  • again in Shin, she's the only one who first figured out that something was wrong when Asuka reached EVA-13, just before everything got to hell, and later was the one who helped Shinji get in EVA-01 for the final battle and later came to extract him

Mari is like an isekai protagonist or one of those peggy sue fic protagonists that know what's going to happen and is trying to have things go right this time, with the twist that said isekai/peggy sue is not the protagonist of the story and we only discover it at the end of the story.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:47 pm

I was planning to start an entire thread about this specific topic. That said, you've already covered the basics, ElMariachi.
Mari is, in many ways, a misunderstood character. There exists a notion that, for a character to be well written, he/she must undergo a change in the course of the narrative. That's actually not true. In fact, there are several types of character arcs in fiction. Makinami, as a character, was built around the flat arc.
Character arcs are usually centered around "the lie the character believes". In the positive arc, arguably the most popular one in fiction, we see the character overcoming a lie he holds to be true. That's the case for Asuka in the original series. Soryu believes that, in order to live, she must pilot the Evangelion. She simply can't trust anyone. Asuka functions under the assumption that she can live only by herself (pushing away almost everyone she likes and striving for an inhuman level of perfectionism). That's the lie her character believes and overcomes (rejecting Human Instrumentality, making peace with her mother and reaching out to Shinji at the end of the story).
The flat arc, on the other hand, works under a completely different set of rules. Unlike any other arc, the character already has a hold on truth at the beginning of the story. In other words, the character knows what he/she is all about. The character will use this truth to overcome external obstacles that test his/her belief. Most importantly, he/she will encourage other characters to look at the world through this truth (changing their lives, usually for the better). It's not about how the character changes, but how he/she alters the reality around him/her. Does this sound familiar? Yeah, Mari's very existence is tangled up with the flat arc.
There's no such thing as an arc being better than the other. You could argue that the positive arc, for example, makes for more compelling stories than the flat. Honestly, I agree with that. However, it is important to make clear that this is all subjective.
It's no surprise that the flat arc works better with longer narratives. That's why the limited runtime may have hurt Mari's character. I wish she had made more of her unique situation as a flat character. Oh well.

Here is a nice image that shows the different types of character arcs:
SPOILER: Show
Image
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Kendrix » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:41 pm

It may be boring on its own, but Mari doesn't exist in a vacuum

She exists, ultimately, to have a different attitude than the others (nor can you give every single character a curve)

I think what also worked against giving her an arc is that she shows up so shortly before the timeskip, and the timeskip strcture itself.

When she's introduced, you'd think there might be possible friction with Misato and Asuka (She remarks on the smell of the EVA 02's previous pilot, andMisato even gets that "she wants to do this alone" line) and maybe there was, but its long in the past, and when they show up again we're presented with an already finished state. Everyone has changed, but we don't see how they got from A to B.

Add to that that Shinji is not allowed to see enough of their lives to understand them until the last movie.

If you had shown the transistion from rivalry to friendship & two loners becoming each other's main support, that's an easy opportunity for dynamicism.
Or if you showed a clash between her & Misato - ie, a responsible boss person who is seeking the answers, and someone who in her first scene is said to dislike reporting to any higher ups and knows everything.

We only see the result of the timeskip, when Asuka and Mari are besties, and Misato... well their only interactions are orders, but you could at least say that she counts on Mari to some degree.
The same goes for most of the WILLE personel, really - how did Ritsuko turn against Gendo? (I imagine that Misato & Kaji brough her to the light side with the power of friendship) What happened between Misato and Asuka? Last we saw them they were finally bonding, but obviously Misato shows up all closed off & cold, and their relationship seems to be purely professional.

so this is all hardly unique to Mary.
mari has the unique disadvantage of there being no old series material of her - its a bit mitigated if you've read the drafts, but ovsly you shouldn't need to to "get" it. Still she has a pretty memorable presence even if shes just there, completely unexplained, just doing her thing.

The makers decided to incur that cost to do the whole "the audience is just as confused as Shinji" thing, which was certainly a tradeoff decision.



If there are extra scenes in some updated version sometime, I really really hope for a scene of Misato interacting with the two wille pilots.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:23 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:Here is a nice image that shows the different types of character arcs:
SPOILER: Show
Image

It's funny, because Shinji has the 5 arcs in the Rebuild movies.

Positive arc in Jo
Growth arc in Ha
Fall arc in Q
Transformational arc in the first parts of Shin
Flat arc in the last parts of Shin

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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Kendrix » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:52 pm

its good to be the king main character
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:22 pm

Kendrix wrote:mari has the unique disadvantage of there being no old series material of her

Yeah, that's exactly it. Mari's character is hold back by two different things. The first I already mentioned. Flat arcs work better with longer narratives. That is, the writer has more time to show how much the character has changed the lives of those around him/her (which is, in my opinion, the most interesting element that surrounds flat characters). As the story progresses, the creator also has more freedom, space and time to introduce many obstacles and new people into the character's life. Applying the flat arc to your long running story is the ultimate way to keep it from becoming stale. The second is what you mentioned. She's a brand new character, so the audience doesn't have an established connection with her. We all know that everyone lost some space in NTE. From Asuka and Ayanami to Misato and Ritsuko. That said, we already knew who these characters were to begin with. Even Shikinami (who is basically a new character in her own right) was built by tinkering with Soryu's building blocks. Mari, on the other hand, was brand new and had to prove her existence from the get-go. It's a tough spot to be in (considering how "Shinji centric" these movies truly are).

Konja7 wrote:It's funny, because Shinji has the 5 arcs in the Rebuild movies

That's true! Great observation! I'm just not sure if he went through the flat arc in Shin. Sure, he now knows the truth and is helping to change everyone's lives. That said, he had to change to get to this point.
Anyway, Shinji's "main arc" is a positive one. That said, as you pointed out, he goes through several "mini arcs". This makes a lot of sense considering that each of these movies are their own narrative units. Mini arcs are a great way to keep your characters fresh and flesh out his/her journey (introducing nuances to the narrative). Ideally, one mini arc should complement the next until the big picture is complete. That's exactly what happens to Shinji in NTE!
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:57 pm

I wouldn't say Rei lost space in NTE compared to NGE (at least, not Rei II).

Jo resumed the six first episodes, but it mantains the most important parts of Rei. Instead, I really think Ha has more focus on Rei comparatively, since she was pretty relegated between episodes 7 and 22 in NGE.

Rei Q also seems to have a good amount of development in Shin. Of course, she doesn't have the relevance than Rei III has in EoE.

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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:32 pm

Honestly, I disagree. Let's start with JO. In this movie, Ayanami becomes a prominent character in its last third. Even within this segment, her role is a scaled-down version of what we saw in the original series. In HA, she barely shows up in the first third of the film (which is more focused on exploring Asuka's arrival and her subsequential stay at Misato's house). Then, the plot shifts to Unit 03 and Asuka's demise. It's at this time that her dinner party starts to become relevant. That said, it's used not only to flesh out her character, but also Shinji and Asuka's. Finally, in the last act of the movie, she shines by becoming the girl who must be saved. In Q, her counterpart simply doesn't play a super important role in the narrative.
In comparison, I feel like she managed to grab a decent amount of important scenes in NGE. We all know that Anno had troubles figuring out what to do with her for a bit. Still, she played an important role in episodes such as 11, 14, 17 and 21. These episodes show a side of Ayanami that is missing from NTE (especially 11 and 17). From episode 22 onwards, Ayanami became an ultra important character again (playing a quintessential role in EOE).
I see her as an important character in NTE. That said, much like anyone that isn't Shinji, she had fewer lines and scenes to work with.

Anyway, let's not deviate from the main topic again lol!
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:36 am

I kinda do think it could've used something like Rei's lines/moments episode 11 (the more philosophic bits, elaboration on her relationship with gendo, a firmer establishment of the 'always taking the more difficult jobs' bits) - they should've done an action arc movie, period, the problem is they only really transistioned from clipshow to full AU in the process of making 2.0. That way they could've established Asuka and Mari more (I feel they didn't have Asuka make enough of an impression before starting to change her), add the ep 11 equivalent Rei its, and then they could keep 2.0 more or less exactly as it is but substitute the missing half hour with Misato stuff.

They kind of made up for it on the 'wisdom' front in the last movie by having Rei be the first one to realize that they should just look for happiness outside EVA (even if she did not believe she could have it) & having her ask a lot of poignant questions (albeit mostly innocently) but the whole Gendo related arc that was so poignant in the original was kinda watered down.
She's kind of opposing him since she's letting Shinji take over unit one, but then again Gendo needed it for his ritual, her thoughts aren't really made clear. (that would be another good extra clip/deleted scene candidate)

That said, despite its downsides, the timeskip & confusion gambit did have the plus side of being novel and whacking us all in the feels quite effectively, i guess they were more concerned with the overall impact/impression of the movie than its individual subplots

Still. It'd be nice to have one scene of Rei & Gendo talking (after he makes off with EVA 01 perhaps) or Misato having a talk with Mari and Asuka after the latter returns.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:10 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:She's kind of opposing him since she's letting Shinji take over unit one, but then again Gendo needed it for his ritual, her thoughts aren't really made clear. (that would be another good extra clip/deleted scene candidate)

Rei's thoughts aren't so clear, but she doesn't seem to be on Gendo's side anymore.

Shinji: Haha. It's alright. Thank you, Ayanami. I'll take it from here.
Rei: Yes, please do.


I guess the feelings of Rei toward Gendo have been quite destroyed after the timeskip. After all, at the end of Ha, Rei was fighting so that Shinji didn't have to fight (not for her bond with Gendo anymore).


PS: That said, BernardoCairo is right that this off-topic

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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:07 pm

It's also interesting to note that all of her attempts to "steer/fix" Shinji ended in failure (trying to make him flee the Geofront in Ha and to cheer him at the end of Q), and same thing with one of Asuka's problems: Mari never managed to make her get over her feeling of being an inhuman monster, in the end Asuka lived through the timeskip thinking that she's a monster, got to the final battle thinking that she was a monster, and "died" thinking that she was a monster, and finally only got over it when Shinji gave her a human body. (I still think that it's one of the biggest missed opportunity that this character arc hadn't covered more, but that was probably impossible to do in the span of one movie)
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:56 pm

I'd argue that having Mari (and Kensuke) around probably made it less worse/ more bearable.
There's only so much you can magic away with The Power Of Friendship, her situation objectively sucked.

Like, being friends with a war veteran with severe PTSD isn't gona magically cure it, but they're probably gonna be better off than with no support system at all.

Seeing as they show up in her instrumentality sequence, their support did play a role in helping her come to her transformative realization etc.
It's the total absence of Misato that is pretty sad considering where we left off in 2.0.

And I mean, Mari's the one who wouldn't count her for dead & told Shinji that she's prolly still in there (and got him to EVA 01 in the first place), so it was arguably a team effort.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:23 pm

The truth is that we didn't get to see much of Asuka's friendship with neither Kensuke or Mari. NTE seems to explore a more "introspective" side of Shikinami. It's all about how she deals with her own loneliness and, to a certain extent, complicated feelings for Shinji. Still, these friendships are important to her journey. It's a shame that we didn't get to see them in greater detail. This isn't necessarily a problem. That said, it's cool, so I wish there was more of it.
I haven't watched Shin yet, but I feel like he goes out of its way to at least establish these bonds. That said, I think it would have been nice if we had seen more of it in previous films. These are new concepts, after all (Khara is not pulling them out of the original series, like Toji and Hikari's relationship, for example). Mari's friendship with Asuka was established in Q, but it was only in this movie that Khara explored their dynamics in a more "mundane" setting. In Kensuke's case, I feel like they didn't have that many casual conversations during the movie (that didn't involve Shinji). The only scene I can think of right now is that one in which she asks not to be recorded. They seem to be nice to each other, though. That's cool. In a way, it feels like Khara didn't want Asuka to end up all alone and so created this friendship (since Kensuke was the only person left). But I digress.
On the other side of the coin, I'm glad Asuka wasn't completely saved by anyone (at least initially). Mari, Kensuke and Shinji were just really nice to her and that's what made the difference in the end. They helped her understand what she wanted and who she was, but they didn't magically solve all her problems. It was Asuka herself who arguably did the bulk of the work during her Instrumentality sequence. That's something nice. I mean, friends can help you, but only you can save yourself.
You know, if that's what you want, there's value in being alone too. You don't need to be around other people all the time to be happy. Of course, this also doesn't mean that you need to isolate yourself from everything and everyone. Personally, I think that would also have been a nice way to approach Asuka's character. This is just an idea, though.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:35 pm

I don't think the problem with Mari has to do with her having a 'flat arc' or a mishandled one, and I don't think the problem is lack of a presence in old material, I think it's far more simple: it's that she's not a compelling character.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:38 pm

The fact that Mari is built around the flat arc obviously has nothing to do with the "quality" of her character. That's why I brought this data to the table. To show that a character doesn't necessarily to change in order to be "well written". Like it or not, this is a big misconception.
That said, it's clear that people might find Mari an uninteresting character for other reasons.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:54 pm

I just find it weird that people feel the need to complain about Mari.

Like, sure, she doesn’t have a lot of screen time, and she doesn’t have too much effect on Shinji’s story outside of the shelter scene (awesome scene, btw), and much of her narrative importance regarding the formation of Wills is implied.

But that’s still a whole heck of a lot better than what the Bridge Bunnies got. That’s basically what Mari is; a character of “Bridge Bunny” significance that also gets to pilot a couple of Eva Units. That’s pretty cool, if you ask me.

Axx°N N.
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Re: Why don't the creators of Rebuild of Evangelion never have time for Mari?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:50 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:The fact that Mari is built around the flat arc obviously has nothing to do with the "quality" of her character. That's why I brought this data to the table. To show that a character doesn't necessarily to change in order to be "well written". Like it or not, this is a big misconception.
That said, it's clear that people might find Mari an uninteresting character for other reasons.

I appreciate the point and I agree with it. I've been in many discussions in a defensive role against accusations that a narrative "lacks plot" or that a character "lacks development," which are things often said when the case (at least in my view) is more that the narrative doesn't have a conventional structure or the character a familiar hero's journey arc. I'm not unfamiliar with all the variations on plot and character trajectory (or non-trajectory), it's just that if you were to ask me "name a well-written character that has no big personality change," Mari wouldn't enter my head for even a nano-second.

But that’s still a whole heck of a lot better than what the Bridge Bunnies got. That’s basically what Mari is; a character of “Bridge Bunny” significance that also gets to pilot a couple of Eva Units. That’s pretty cool, if you ask me.

But that's not an accurate description of Mari, not even from the time of her first appearance. Since when do the bridge bunnies have any hint of a mysterious nature? By the time of Shin, we can add: since when has a bridge bunny been revealed to have a mysterious significance, or enter into a weird dimensional zone, or star in the major final sortie, or feature as one of two speaking characters in the thematic climax?
Last edited by Axx°N N. on Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Après moi le déluge!


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