ElMariachi wrote:Then why does she exclaims that it was supposed to be a single entry plug Eva? It doesn't have any link with it activating before she could plant the entry plug shutdown device?

The comment about it being "single entry" only happens after Asuka has injected the angel blood into her Evangelion and removed her hex pillar. The terminal signal plug that she intended to plunge into it was blocked when New Eva-02's AT Field activated. Asuka rears back, ready to strike, and then we get line 1378, 「シングルエントリーじゃなかったの？」I hate lines like this because you never know if they're literal ("It wasn't single-entry?!") or rhetorical ("It was single-entry, wasn't it?!") I know Unit 13 is referred to as having a Double-entry System, but I'm not sure if "single-entry" is meant to imply that Asuka thinks it only takes one plug, or that it only has one plug currently inside it. As we say, the former reading wouldn't make much contextual sense-- how could Wille not know something so crucial about this last Evangelion that they need to destroy? The latter reading might make a bit more sense, since earlier in the film there's a scene between Sakura and Asuka where Sakura mentions that there was data on the DSS choker's data recorder showing that another pilot blew up right in front of Shinji.

Line 889-896:
Sakura: "The operation history of the choker was stored in our MAGI copy. It told us there was another pilot who died right in front of him when it exploded. For him to go through that, and then come back to the Wunder... Why?"

Asuka: "Beats me. I'm more interested in why Captain Katsuragi even gave him permission to come onboard."

Maybe it's a comment on how Asuka thought there was only one dead pilot in Eva 13 who shouldn't have been able to do anything, much less blow her arms off with eye beams and squirm out of its restraints.

ElMariachi wrote:The zombie or quantum version?
By the way, I've read in Reichu's site that the buildings in the mental Tokyo-3 where Shinji and Gendo fight are actually models that break away like in old Kaiju movies, is that true?

Quantum Kaworu. The scene where Original Asuka appears isn't particularly grounded with reality-based imagery, the walls of the entry plug are going a little kooky. If I recall correctly, Quantum Kaworu is standing upright, and has some of the same speed lines around him that we saw after Mari ejected Shinji from Unit 13 in Q. (I could be recalling incorrectly.)

When Shinji and Gendo fight in Tokyo-3, it's meant to be like everything is a scale model, yes. The buildings are scattering and sliding around, and at the end of the fight sequence, Shinji actually falls off the Tokyo-3 "stage" and into a painted backdrop of the sky. The film makes very clear that what they're fighting on isn't real, it's a set inside Shinji's head.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Quantum Kaworu. The scene where Original Asuka appears isn't particularly grounded with reality-based imagery, the walls of the entry plug are going a little kooky. If I recall correctly, Quantum Kaworu is standing upright, and has some of the same speed lines around him that we saw after Mari ejected Shinji from Unit 13 in Q. (I could be recalling incorrectly.)

Are we sure he is Quantum Kaworu? Does he appear with the school uniform?

I have read you could see Kaworu inside Eva-13 when original Shikinami appeared, but I assumed it was Zombie Kaworu.

Of course, Kaworu's soul is trapped in Eva-13 too, so it wouldn't be so weird that he could appear there (like Rei appear in Eva-01), especially if the scene is imagery.

5ch says 3.0+1.01 considerably toned down the Asuken scenes. Supposedly the scene with him putting a towel on her was cut short "by several frames" and so was the close-up on doll Kensuke. Let's see if it can be confirmed.

Unless you've got a link to the 5ch post, this is worse than an unsubstantiated rumor-- it's an unsubstantiated rumor that doesn't even have a source! I don't know how this could even be confirmed unless we get information from Khara themselves, since we're talking about a difference that at best might be barely one-fifth of a second. (Assuming "a couple frames" is four or five.)

The thread is full of interesting, puzzling and questionable claims.

https://mao.5ch.net/test/read.cgi/eva/1623489470?v=pc

I don't see how a split second cut even "tone down" anything down that wasn't uber explicit in the first place.

Can you even remember such small detail from seeing a 2 hour movie in a cinema?
This just reminds me of the "did you see broken glass" psychology experiment...

The movie is full of very short insert scenes (ReiQ turning around in the preview, the shot of the Ayanamy types in a tank etc. )


Another point:
Now that Reichu's translation & pic collection has gone further, I see that Rei's final "thank you" is accompanied by this pic:


Maybe the shift to her uniform is analogous to Asuka's plugsuit tearing off etc, it symbolizes that she's gotten over seeing herself as mostly defined by EVA.

In fact, all of them are out of their clothes the last time we see them (not counting the apilogue)

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:I hate lines like this because you never know if they're literal ("It wasn't single-entry?!") or rhetorical ("It was single-entry, wasn't it?!") I know Unit 13 is referred to as having a Double-entry System, but I'm not sure if "single-entry" is meant to imply that Asuka thinks it only takes one plug, or that it only has one plug currently inside it. As we say, the former reading wouldn't make much contextual sense-- how could Wille not know something so crucial about this last Evangelion that they need to destroy? The latter reading might make a bit more sense, since earlier in the film there's a scene between Sakura and Asuka where Sakura mentions that there was data on the DSS choker's data recorder showing that another pilot blew up right in front of Shinji.

I don't know, WILLE didn't seemed very interested about why Shinji acted the way he did, how could he bypass the DSS Choker's security, who was that other person that died by its detonation, what was the deal with that "13th Angel" that was briefly detected during the battle in Lilith Chamber, or even in just interrogating him about what he saw and know about neo-NERV HQ and EVA-13.
Frankly WILLE's level of planning and intelligence gathering is abyssal.

As for the "single entry plug" or "only one entry plug remaining" meaning, neither of them make sense if you think about it: the first one as I said implies that their plan was fucked before it even began because they couldn't be hassled to ask Shinji a couple of questions, and the second implies that they thought that neo-NERV couldn't build a second entry plug (or retrieve Shinji's) and put a Dummy Plug in it as a spare pilot just in case? Granted, it turns out that Gendo indeed didn't replaced Shinji's entry plug, but again WILLE is really shit at planning against the unexpected!

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:When Shinji and Gendo fight in Tokyo-3, it's meant to be like everything is a scale model, yes. The buildings are scattering and sliding around, and at the end of the fight sequence, Shinji actually falls off the Tokyo-3 "stage" and into a painted backdrop of the sky. The film makes very clear that what they're fighting on isn't real, it's a set inside Shinji's head.

I wonder if more of an indication that this is how Shinji interprets the place (because normal minds can't comprehend Minus Space), this isn't actually Anno going meta and trashing the set to symbolize how he's about to leave Eva forever, because it wouldn't make sense for Shinji to imagine Tokyo-3 and the places were he lived there as a movie set. (are the houses in the fake Village-3 also scale models?)

Konja7 wrote:I find this image in Reichu blog:



Rei has long hair as a soul. I wonder if there is another story for that.

I think she isn't wearing anything

Yeah. Rei is naked, since she is only a soul. Curiously, Rei seems to have a good amount of control over Eva-01, since Shinji seems to need her "permission" to pilot it. Rei even creates a giant hole in the wall of the entry plug, so Shinji could enter.

Maybe the old theory that Kaworu's soul helps Mari to free Shinji from Eva-13 in Q isn't wrong. That said, Kaworu would have lost any control over Eva-13 in Shin, because Neo-NERV creates Zombie Kaworu and Gendo becomes a "God".

I guess Gendo would likely plan to take control over Eva-01 in a similar way (using a souless Ayanami clone to pilot it).

Just saw 3.0+1.01 in what may be my final Eva theater viewing ever, that is unless of course there is some future opportunity in which I can see EoE.

So as far as significant visual changes from the original version, I literally only noticed one: When Yui "saves" Shinji from the Gaius spear and sends him off, he is wearing his school uniform and the DSS choker is visible as he floats towards the surface ala the EoE callback. In 3.0+1.0, Shinji is wearing his Unit 01 plugsuit up until he is seen on the Shin beach prior to meeting up with Mari.

Honestly I think it was just an excuse to promote the Eva extra pamphlet which I still haven't actually opened yet.

For those who've seen the movie, I'm a little confused by the order of events of the final battle, notably when did Shinji "won", if I understand well the scripts, the order of events are : Gendo takes EVA-01 -> Shinji pursues him and reactivate Unit 01 -> brawl between 01 and 13 that leads nowhere -> Shinji then ask Gendo to explain to him what he's trying to do -> WILLE start building the spear of Gaius -> Flash-back/backstory of Gendo sequence -> Gendo has his epiphany that he maybe making his son's life hell wasn't worth it and that he was just afraid of him -> the spear of Gaius arrives -> scene in the train station where Gendo embraces Shinji and leave

Did I got it right? If so, the question I wonder is if Gendo already gave up on Instrumentality by the time that the spear of Gaius arrived, because if so, it gives me the impression that Gendo was defeated by a "Talk no jutsu".

ElMariachi wrote:
Did I got it right? If so, the question I wonder is if Gendo already gave up on Instrumentality by the time that the spear of Gaius arrived, because if so, it gives me the impression that Gendo was defeated by a "Talk no jutsu".

That is definitely the case.
It's explicitly said that the fighting just plains into his ritual/wouldn't help.
It's very explicitly a diplomatic solution - Apparently Gendo is satisfied with the result as long as it still rebells against SEELE and the FAR.

I wouldn't say it's anticlimatic (as if a fight is the only thing that's climatic - how often can we solve problems by punching in real life? Not all talking is created equal. )
after all to even attempt talking, Shinji would have to face his fear of being hated - that the answer might really just be that Gendo just plain doesn't care.
He can only try negotiating if he's confident that he won't falter if he doesn't like the answer.
(though at the point where you have him answer, 'yep, I just hate you' would be boring... though you could probably still negotiate by offering him something else that he wants or having a philosophical argument. )

However, the spear of Gaius was still needed to erase all the EVAs.

It's unclear if Shinji could've just speared EVA 13 with it if Gendo had not been ready to cooperate at this point, but I'm not sure that he could have unfucked the planet or saved the others in that case.

ElMariachi wrote:Did I got it right? If so, the question I wonder is if Gendo already gave up on Instrumentality by the time that the spear of Gaius arrived, because if so, it gives me the impression that Gendo was defeated by a "Talk no jutsu".

I don't think Gendo gave up. If anything, Shinji's offer to stop fighting seems to satisfy him more than anything else, but it's Shinji passing through Gendo's AT Field with the SDAT player that really kicks things off.

Which is really beatiful 'cause in all those scenes where Shinji was about to throw away the player and then Rei or Kaworu handed it back to him, they were giving him the 'key' to 'defeat' Gendo, kinda like devilman's relay race motif.

Considering that those were mostly scenes where Shinji was just about ready to give up on himself and/or the world, you could see this as in line with the 'hope and affection' correspondence from EoE.


Or that having his friends around stopped him from becoming like Gendo, who threw it away when crossing how own despair event horizon.

Though the spear of Gaius is also a kind of 'key', but probably one representing something slightly different - a good example of an actual adult, maybe. (or a flawed example that is still better than nothing/Gendo), maybe, or having faith/trust placed in him.
Misato's last thoughts when she gets blown up making him is about her limited flawed attempt to do something for her kids (both adopted & biological), so it might be seen of having the function of a parent trying to empower their children.

So, Shinji essentially fights the mess left behind by his bio parents with the love he got from other people in his life.

Kendrix wrote:That is definitely the case.
It's explicitly said that the fighting just plains into his ritual/wouldn't help.
It's very explicitly a diplomatic solution - Apparently Gendo is satisfied with the result as long as it still rebells against SEELE and the FAR.

I wouldn't say it's anticlimatic (as if a fight is the only thing that's climatic - how often can we solve problems by punching in real life? Not all talking is created equal. )

It's not really that it was anticlimatic, but more that Gendo giving lessons on how things aren't resolved through violence when he spent the last 14 years leading an army of giant killer bots using heavy firepower to prevent humanity from trying to reverse the effects of Impacts and that the situation of him vs Shinji was the result of him bombarding the Wunder and forcefully ripping Asuka from her Eva to devour her is pretty hypocritical. It's like Hitler saying at the end of WWII that violence is not how one solves conflicts between nations, you kinda lost the right to use that argument a long time ago pal!

Kendrix wrote:However, the spear of Gaius was still needed to erase all the EVAs.

It's unclear if Shinji could've just speared EVA 13 with it if Gendo had not been ready to cooperate at this point, but I'm not sure that he could have unfucked the planet or saved the others in that case.

Unless the spear of Gaius had special functions like laser beams of a lightsaber function, Shinji would had to resume the fight had Gendo not already gave up, and since the spear of Cassius was already a super spear capable of stopping dead even a fully awakened Eva (as seen at the end of Ha) yet Shinji couldn't defeat Gendo with it, his chances with the super bulky Gaius wouldn't had been very great.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:I don't think Gendo gave up. If anything, Shinji's offer to stop fighting seems to satisfy him more than anything else, but it's Shinji passing through Gendo's AT Field with the SDAT player that really kicks things off.

I really need to see the movie, because now I'm picturing Gendo being pleased by Shinji giving up violently opposing him, then explaining his plan to Shinji and then mid-point realizing that "how shit I actually love my son and don't want to do this", I know that there are people bad at self-reflection, but this is a record setting high!

I'm kinda with Kaworu's VA that Gendo trying to dispense lessons or comment on how Shinji has grown up is kinda preposterous/ not his place / a right he has lost or never earned to begin with, but it's not at all unrealistic for a guy like him to think he gets to say that.

On some level Shinji is essentially talking down a terrorist with his hand on the big red button & IRL this is often done through appealing to their emotions/wants.

See that dialogue between Asuka & Kensuke where she's like, "that kid can't take him" and she's right that Shinji is a random kid not a negotiator, but as Kensuke points out, Shinji's still his kid, someone Gendo knew before he became full on evil.
Luke could have more influence on Darth Vader than a random jedi.

On the other hand, Shinji would be the sort to take a nominal reconcilliation if he can get it.

So at this point it comes down more to pragmatism or personal choice rather than what either of them really deserve.
For example, I have no interest in any relationship that requires me to walk on eggshells and accept that the other person must always be boss, but my brother is like the one sibling who still talks to our dad cause he doesn't like conflict, & Shinji would probably be more like that.

There's ppl you can trust and ppl who will just fuck you over if you ever show them your back, but there's also an in-between like, some people you can sorta nominally get along with from a distance if you're willing & strong enough to play along with their silly games without harm to yourself, even if you're never getting real cloneness out of them, it comes down to wether that interests you.
That obviously requires a certain self-knowledge to be honestly able to tell wether you get more satisfaction than harm out of it, & some certainty in yourself to not let the other person's issues affect your self-esteem.
So essentially this is something Shinji couldn't have done at the start of the story

even evil or misguided people have reasons for what they believe what they believe - sometimes it's misinformation, sometimes emotional (and good luck convincing misinformed people with emotion, or an emotion-motivated person with facts), but if those reasons go away, even the most entrenched beliefs can change. In Gendo's case, a lot of his actions are based on thinking that the world is bad, that people in their current state are wretched and can never understand each other.

Kendrix wrote:stuff

You see, the thing that I'm uncomfortable with is that I get your point and even agree with... for EoE Gendo, the one who "merely" abandoned Shinji and never wanted to have him pilot or be involved in the Eva business, whose "crime" toward his son was neglect born out of his own feelings of inadequacy, I can see a heart-to-heart reconciliatory talk between him and his son (and that would still not exempt Gendo from every faults: he still has at least Kaji's death to answer for).
But Rebuild's Gendo, who actively and consciously caused all the miseries in his son's life, who planned from the beginning (with his wife) to have him pilot and awake EVA-01, who erased his last memories of his mother (and every memories he had of her as a collateral), who abandoned him to some nondescript guardian, who manipulated him into awakening his Eva, destroying the life his son had started to build in Tokyo-3 and irremediably damaging the relationship he had with everyone he knew there, then after 14 years of suspended animation, abducting and manipulating him again to near complete insanity to then leave him to die a catatonic wreck once he was done with him, the one who not only planned the end of the world on his terms but doubled down on his villainy to the point of openly leading the army trying to wipe out what survived of humanity, to have that person be the target of Shinji's supposed culmination of his character arc of "becoming mature" by unconditionally opening up to him, and having it being the key of Gendo's defeat by self-realization before abandoning his plans and get an emotional send off while dying with his wife which was his true objective all along is something I can't get behind.

It feels like the story telling that the abuser could had been redeemed earlier if the abused victim just tried to understand the person who purposefully and repetitively destroyed his life.
You were talking about Luke redeeming Vader, but for me it looks more like Vader opening his heart to Palpatine and have the later get a change of heart and killing himself so the galaxy won't have to live under the Empire and the Sith anymore.
For me, Rebuild's Gendo doesn't deserve morally nor narratively to get Shinji's sympathy, and I don't understand why people in the movie kept telling Shinji that he should try to talk to him and understand him, as if he was just a distant father and not the monster that put everyone in the alien hellhole that was once Earth and is at the head of the army of machines trying to finish off the job, again this would be more fitting for EoE Gendo; and he doesn't deserve to get what he wanted in the end with just an apology to his son, and to have the movie have it happen but also treat it as a good thing to happen makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't get the gymnastics being performed regarding Gendo when we have staff statements about him being a good example of a strong patriarchal figure in contrast to "feminized" modern men. Victim blaming shouldn't come as a surprise from such markedly of-their-generation viewpoints.

Staff people have said so? I guess I remember something similar by Tsurumaki, but not others...

Yamashita mentioned an original plans for the Rebuild movies ending was that Shinji in Eva-01 and Gendo in Eva-13 will fight for all eternity.

So, the staff should know Gendo is a extremely problematic person.

Zusuchan wrote:Staff people have said so? I guess I remember something similar by Tsurumaki, but not others...

A member of the staff say something like that in an interview (at times of Ha). I don't remember if this person was Tsurumaki.

Of course, this doesn't mean all the staff members have this idea.