why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Konja7 » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:38 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:If he didn't at least strongly suspected that Mark.06 would be ready to intervene by the time of Zeruel's attack, he couldn't had planned for EVA-01 to awake, or else it would had killed all of humanity, and possibly in a way that would had made it impossible for SEELE to "purify" humanity's soul afterward, a true bad end for everyone involved.

I've been wondering if SEELE always planned the Fourth Impact to "purify" humanity's souls. Or this was necessary after a failure in the Third Impact.

In the Third Impact between Ha and Q, humans were becoming Infinity, which seems pretty close to SEELE 's plan of new beings with FoL, but without FoK. However, the Infinity lost their heads (maybe related to Lilith losing hers) and become Failures of the Infinity.

Maybe SEELE originally only need a Third Impact they could control for their plans, but something goes wrong (Gendo would likely be related to that). So, they need to start the Fourth Impact after that.

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:49 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I've been wondering if SEELE always planned the Fourth Impact to "purify" humanity's souls. Or this was necessary after a failure in the Third Impact.

No way to be sure, but Gendo saying that Second Impact purified the sea, Third purified the land and Fourth was to purify the souls implies that it was always designed that way, maybe the souls had to go through a two-step process: first being transformed in FoIs, then go through a second purification process?
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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Konja7 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:15 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:No way to be sure, but Gendo saying that Second Impact purified the sea, Third purified the land and Fourth was to purify the souls implies that it was always designed that way, maybe the souls had to go through a two-step process: first being transformed in FoIs, then go through a second purification process?


It's complicated because it's Gendo who said this. He seems to have his own Instrumentality and need all the "purifications" for this.
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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby DantesInferno » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:35 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original PostElMariachi#923981 wrote:No way to be sure, but Gendo saying that Second Impact purified the sea, Third purified the land and Fourth was to purify the souls implies that it was always designed that way, maybe the souls had to go through a two-step process: first being transformed in FoIs, then go through a second purification process?


It's complicated because it's Gendo who said this. He seems to have his own Instrumentality and need the all the "purifications" for this.


Furthermore, we learn in SHIN (iirc) that it was Dr. Katsuragi who first proposed the whole theory on human instrumentality that Gendo and Fuyutsuki are pursuing. Not sure if he was on board, and caused second impact (or what his allegiance was for that matter), or if it was triggered by someone else/sabotage (kinda like it is implied in NGE), or what.

We know even less details about 2I than we know about A3I...

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Saint Eva » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:17 pm

As everyone on this thread has pointed out, Wille was never a threat as the massive power difference exist between them and the Neo-Nerv. Gendo probably allowed them to exist as he needed them to prevent 4th Impact and double-cross SEELE while SEELE likely didn't consider WILLE worthy of their attention. Nerv's reach extends all the way to Paris with an army of aerial Evas and goose-stepping Evas armed with a goddamn positron cannon. WILLE can barely survive nemesis series and scavenges for parts all over the world, while Nerv produces materials and resources out of thin air.

The bright minds of Wille should have stopped for a minute and pondered on questions like why exactly Nerv haven't curbstomped them all these years? Why Nerv never bothered to retrieve Eva 01 from space? Why they never bothered to attack the Village? How easily Mk.09 located Shinji? Why wasn't Mk.09/Rei 6 ordered to kill Misato and Ritsuko right then? What happened to Shinji at Neo-Nerv? Who removed Shinji's choker and died in his place? What was the deal with those spears? How 4th Impact and Eva13 stopped on its own? "Oh something isn't right. It's all too convenient. We should interrogate Shinji, in a different nicer manner. Gendo likely needs Eva01 for his plans. We should reevaluate our plans and change strategy in light of new information."

Instead, they made genius decisions like stuffing more bombs in Asuka and Mari's rooms. Asuka was surprised that she even got permission to get onboard. If Nerv ever wanna kill WILLE's pilots, then all they had to do was try abducting them, which in turn prompts the morons to activate the DSS choker or the room bombs. There ya go! WILLE just killed their best hopes without Nerv firing a single shot.

What was WILLE's plan anyway other than waiting for Nerv to make a move? They dove headfirst in an ambush and got their asses whooped. "Prioritize objectives over human lives" Just how many people Misato got killed over the years for sake of her dumb plans. "Shoot on Sight if Shinji attempts to board Eva" lol A 14 year old kid recovering from catatonia and depression, single-handedly did in one week what battle-hardened veterans couldn't do in 14 years. What a bunch of paranoid incompetent clowns.

I see WILLE as the kind of people who just get angry at past, dump the blame on someone else and instead of contemplating on what went wrong in the first place, just make new plans and move forward. There's a theme of miscommunication or maybe people not learning/growing from past and sweeping everything under the rug but this time it doesn't work because the heroes are infuriatingly stupid.

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby wiser3754 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:40 pm

View Original PostSaint Eva wrote:
The bright minds of Wille should have stopped for a minute and pondered on questions like why exactly Nerv haven't curbstomped them all these years? Why Nerv never bothered to retrieve Eva 01 from space? Why they never bothered to attack the Village? How easily Mk.09 located Shinji? Why wasn't Mk.09/Rei 6 ordered to kill Misato and Ritsuko right then?


Simple answer. Kaworu was put in charge of Nerv at the behest of SEELE. He wears a Supreme Commander uniform in flashbacks. He was triple crossing both Nerv and SEELE and using their resources and intelligence to benefit his own agenda. He needed and wanted Shinji so he did his utmost to delay Nerv's and SEELE's plans until his plan was put in place first.

This includes keeping WILLE alive and making sure they retrieve Shinji to simply witness he and Kaworu undoing the effects of 'Third Impact'. And I emphasize THIRD IMPACT, not Near Third Impact.
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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:04 pm

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:This includes keeping WILLE alive and making sure they retrieve Shinji to simply witness he and Kaworu undoing the effects of 'Third Impact'. And I emphasize THIRD IMPACT, not Near Third Impact.

I also have the theory that Kaworu has been preventing that NERV/SEELE annihilates WILLE and humanity.

Not only for his plans to restore Earth, Kaworu really liked Kaji. And it seems he likes Misato too.

Kaji: Why don't you and Katsuragi spend your golden years working the fields together?
Kaworu: Might as well. I'm fine with that.
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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:20 pm

So many things in NTE feel like they're conveniently swept off-screen so they don't even have to try and demonstrate it. I can't even imagine what Kaworu being supreme commander would look like in action.
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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:32 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:So many things in NTE feel like they're conveniently swept off-screen so they don't even have to try and demonstrate it. I can't even imagine what Kaworu being supereme commander would look like in action.

There is many things we don't know about the timeskip. Maybe some day a manga could cover these events.

It's even possible Kaworu worked with WILLE at some point.

In Q, it's mentioned the DSS Choker was created for Kaworu. In Shin, we discovered WILLE uses the DSS Choker to control its Eva pilots.

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby royabr121 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 am

SPOILER: Show
View Original PostSaint Eva wrote:As everyone on this thread has pointed out, Wille was never a threat as the massive power difference exist between them and the Neo-Nerv. Gendo probably allowed them to exist as he needed them to prevent 4th Impact and double-cross SEELE while SEELE likely didn't consider WILLE worthy of their attention. Nerv's reach extends all the way to Paris with an army of aerial Evas and goose-stepping Evas armed with a goddamn positron cannon. WILLE can barely survive nemesis series and scavenges for parts all over the world, while Nerv produces materials and resources out of thin air.

The bright minds of Wille should have stopped for a minute and pondered on questions like why exactly Nerv haven't curbstomped them all these years? Why Nerv never bothered to retrieve Eva 01 from space? Why they never bothered to attack the Village? How easily Mk.09 located Shinji? Why wasn't Mk.09/Rei 6 ordered to kill Misato and Ritsuko right then? What happened to Shinji at Neo-Nerv? Who removed Shinji's choker and died in his place? What was the deal with those spears? How 4th Impact and Eva13 stopped on its own? "Oh something isn't right. It's all too convenient. We should interrogate Shinji, in a different nicer manner. Gendo likely needs Eva01 for his plans. We should reevaluate our plans and change strategy in light of new information."

Instead, they made genius decisions like stuffing more bombs in Asuka and Mari's rooms. Asuka was surprised that she even got permission to get onboard. If Nerv ever wanna kill WILLE's pilots, then all they had to do was try abducting them, which in turn prompts the morons to activate the DSS choker or the room bombs. There ya go! WILLE just killed their best hopes without Nerv firing a single shot.

What was WILLE's plan anyway other than waiting for Nerv to make a move? They dove headfirst in an ambush and got their asses whooped. "Prioritize objectives over human lives" Just how many people Misato got killed over the years for sake of her dumb plans. "Shoot on Sight if Shinji attempts to board Eva" lol A 14 year old kid recovering from catatonia and depression, single-handedly did in one week what battle-hardened veterans couldn't do in 14 years. What a bunch of paranoid incompetent clowns.

I see WILLE as the kind of people who just get angry at past, dump the blame on someone else and instead of contemplating on what went wrong in the first place, just make new plans and move forward. There's a theme of miscommunication or maybe people not learning/growing from past and sweeping everything under the rug but this time it doesn't work because the heroes are infuriatingly stupid.


I must concur. At this point, WILLE should be named "Misato and her band of blind imbeciles". That they managed to survive for 14 years post Third Impact speaks volumes of how little NERV and SEELE gave a shit about them. If NERV had gotten serious about wiping them out, they would have wiped Village 3 and whatever pathetic little settlements they had and simply starved them to death. Given that WILLE cannot be everywhere at once, and the Mark 4-A could simply waltz off into space, all they had to do was place several of them in orbit and have them accelerate towards a settlement and wipe them out via kinetic bombardment.

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:44 am

View Original Postroyabr121 wrote:I must concur. At this point, WILLE should be named "Misato and her band of blind imbeciles". That they managed to survive for 14 years post Third Impact speaks volumes of how little NERV and SEELE gave a shit about them. If NERV had gotten serious about wiping them out, they would have wiped Village 3 and whatever pathetic little settlements they had and simply starved them to death. Given that WILLE cannot be everywhere at once, and the Mark 4-A could simply waltz off into space, all they had to do was place several of them in orbit and have them accelerate towards a settlement and wipe them out via kinetic bombardment. [/color]


Kinetic bombardment? A small attack that destroy the anti-corification pillars would be enough to finish the Villages.

The Villages survives thanks to these pillars. If NERV/SEELE destroy the pillars, the Villages will turn to core and everyone there would die.

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby royabr121 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:17 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original Postroyabr121#924838 wrote:I must concur. At this point, WILLE should be named "Misato and her band of blind imbeciles". That they managed to survive for 14 years post Third Impact speaks volumes of how little NERV and SEELE gave a shit about them. If NERV had gotten serious about wiping them out, they would have wiped Village 3 and whatever pathetic little settlements they had and simply starved them to death. Given that WILLE cannot be everywhere at once, and the Mark 4-A could simply waltz off into space, all they had to do was place several of them in orbit and have them accelerate towards a settlement and wipe them out via kinetic bombardment. [/color]


Kinetic bombardment? A small attack that destroy the anti-corification pillars would be enough to finish the Villages.

The Villages survives thanks to these pillars. If NERV/SEELE destroy the pillars, the Villages will turn to core and everyone there would die.


Just pointing out a scenario in which WILLE will have absolutely nothing to do to prevent NERV from winning. Heck, they can barely send something into orbit.

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby wiser3754 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:28 pm

View Original Postroyabr121 wrote:
I must concur. At this point, WILLE should be named "Misato and her band of blind imbeciles".


You're aware that WILLE was created by Kaji, yeah? And then was taken over by Misato and co after Third Impact?
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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby royabr121 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:30 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:
View Original Postroyabr121#924838 wrote:
I must concur. At this point, WILLE should be named "Misato and her band of blind imbeciles".


You're aware that WILLE was created by Kaji, yeah? And then was taken over by Misato and co after Third Impact?


So Kaji being their founder somehow should affect appraisal of them 14 years after the fact? What does it matter? Also, remember that Kaji was the one to bring Nebuchadnezzar's Key to Gendo? Remember he did this in order to satisfy his own urge to know what was going on behind the scenes? He was not the cleverest guy around to begin with.

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Saint Eva » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:28 pm

Kaworu working behind the scenes to save WILLE and Lilin is a plausible theory though it still doesn't make WILLE look good. Kaworu's relations with other characters, specifically WILLE are also just weird and vague.

Kaji handed reigns of WILLE, and all its resources to Misato. Few characters mention that Kaji was responsible for much of the WILLE's data. His flashback with Kaworu shows that these two are far more aware of plans and future that is to come, than anyone else, including that Kaworu has "chosen" Shinji and one day he'll carry rest of Kaworu's mission to restore Earth as "He can take over from here, don't you think?" seems to suggest. Kaji is confident enough that he believes by the end, they'll grow old and working together in fields.

So the WILLE's founder always knew that one day, Shinji will save the world, which may explain why he was so eager in mentoring Shinji, showing him his water plant, melon field, explaining Misato's past, having Shinji make promises and all those life lessons Shinji will remember at a crucial moment that will motivate him to save the world. Yet from what we know, WILLE and Misato have zero clue about Shinji's importance.

This is me going by Reichu's translation. In Shin, Sakura says Magi has operational history of another pilot dying from Choker. In 3.0 Kaworu says that choker was originally made for him, so in that case, shouldn't Magi had identified him from available data and told the name of pilot to Sakura? You can say Magi did tell his name and Sakura didn't think it's important enough to be mentioned but after Gendo and Fuyu, Kaworu is the 3rd most important person in Nerv/Seele. He was/is the supreme commander for last 14 years and the guy who impaled and stopped Eva01 during N3I. Shouldn't his death warrant mention at least by name, and the conversation shifted there instead of mere "another pilot"? Asuka could have put two and two together to realize the only other person left in Nerv capable enough to pilot Eva13, remove the choker and die in his place is Kaworu, but she seems puzzled and believes Shinji removed the choker on his own. I wonder just how much data WILLE ever had on Kaworu.

Half of troubles and paranoia WILLE went through could have been avoided, had Kaji haven't kept them in dark and shared all secrets like that Nebuchadnezzar's key. I guess Kaji was afraid of a spy in WILLE but then couldn't he had at least told Misato "Shinji's the Key, please don't blame but cooperate with him" "We have a secret high-ranking ally in Nerv so don't lose hope" instead of "a son should give a pat to his dad or kill him".

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Konja7 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:45 pm

View Original PostSaint Eva wrote:Kaji handed reigns of WILLE, and all its resources to Misato. Few characters mention that Kaji was responsible for much of the WILLE's data. His flashback with Kaworu shows that these two are far more aware of plans and future that is to come, than anyone else, including that Kaworu has "chosen" Shinji and one day he'll carry rest of Kaworu's mission to restore Earth as "He can take over from here, don't you think?" seems to suggest. Kaji is confident enough that he believes by the end, they'll grow old and working together in fields.


This part isn't a flashback.

Kaji's and Kaworu's conversation happened during the Instrumentality, so it seems Kaji's soul really appeared at that moment (maybe related to Kaji dying to stop the Third Impact).

The phrase "He can take over from here, don't you think?" only would make sense in the Instrumentality (when Shinji has already decided to carry everything by himself).

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby wiser3754 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:44 pm

View Original Postroyabr121 wrote:
So Kaji being their founder somehow should affect appraisal of them 14 years after the fact? What does it matter? Also, remember that Kaji was the one to bring Nebuchadnezzar's Key to Gendo? Remember he did this in order to satisfy his own urge to know what was going on behind the scenes? He was not the cleverest guy around to begin with.


Kaji wasn't clever? So his sacrifice to stop Third Impact was dumb? Kaji trying to find out what Nerv and SEELE were up to and passing it on to Misato and others about the Human Contemplation Project wasn't smart? His knowledge about the impacts wasn't prevalent? Him working with an Angel to potentially sabotage Nerv and SEELE wasn't a clever idea?

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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:48 pm

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Kaji wasn't clever? So his sacrifice to stop Third Impact was dumb? Kaji trying to find out what Nerv and SEELE were up to and passing it on to Misato and others about the Human Contemplation Project wasn't smart? His knowledge about the impacts wasn't prevalent? Him working with an Angel to potentially sabotage Nerv and SEELE wasn't a clever idea?

There's only so much one person can do.

There's not enough of the situation being demonstrated to begin to say if it was dumb or not. That's part of the problem; nothing Kaji does has any meaning other than as an objective event and a contrivance, a scriptwriter deciding what happened because it needed to happen for other plot things to work. As an event in itself, it doesn't hold any meaning and there really isn't anything to extrapolate about what it means or doesn't mean for his character. Your questions might as well be rhetorical.
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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:38 pm

View Original Postroyabr121 wrote:So Kaji being their founder somehow should affect appraisal of them 14 years after the fact? What does it matter? Also, remember that Kaji was the one to bring Nebuchadnezzar's Key to Gendo? Remember he did this in order to satisfy his own urge to know what was going on behind the scenes? He was not the cleverest guy around to begin with.

Kaji brought the Key to Gendo because that was part of his test of loyalty to be accepted in his circle, alongside destroying the base with the Third Angel (so SEELE won't be able to keep experimenting on Angel/Eva hybrid technology) and assassinating Mari (and with what we learned in Shin, we now know why Gendo and Fuyu wanted to get rid of her, because she knows a lot of their plans since she probably was a former member of their cabal), so he didn't had the choice but to bring the Key to Gendo, or else he couldn't had infiltrated NERV.
That was a risk he had to take.


View Original PostSaint Eva wrote:Kaworu working behind the scenes to save WILLE and Lilin is a plausible theory though it still doesn't make WILLE look good. Kaworu's relations with other characters, specifically WILLE are also just weird and vague.

That's the two things that irks me: WILLE were presented as the true protectors of humanity, that unlike their time at NERV were they were just pawns to further the evil masterminds' plans, easily disposable if they turn out to be too inconvenient, this time they were openly fighting the evil cult on an equal footing, a great departure from EoE when they were all slaughtered once SEELE lost its patience (and because Gendo betrayed them), then comes Shin and the revelation of the true extend of neo-NERV's military strength... and it turns out that WILLE were just pawns to further the evil masterminds' plans, easily disposable if they turn out to be too inconvenient, nothing changed in 14 years and an apocalypse. The only logical reason WILLE could had survived that long would be because a select few either allowed them for their own gain (Gendo) or protected them (Kaworu), their fate were never in their own hands.

And the second thing is that Kaworu is completely disconnected from the story and setting, that's why during the waiting for Shin I was really looking forward for the moment Shinji would go out of his funk and have a conversation about what happened during his time at neo-NERV (if it wasn't with Asuka or Misato about why did he got against their pleas to not pilot and not listening when they told him to stop, then at least to get some intel on what's in that fortress, because there mustn't be many people who came back from there!), because then he will inevitably mention Kaworu, and we'll get some information of what WILLE (and by proxy the rest of humanity) know and think about him, maybe learn things that Kaworu didn't told Shinji about him, I mean he's guy that stopped N3I and descended on Earth in a unknown flying Eva before taking over the leadership of NERV Japan, they must have things to say about him! At least they must wonder what was that deal with a 13th Angel being detected out of nowhere during the fight in Lilith's chamber!

And then... nothing, not even a mention of him and what he did, it's as if he never existed outside of being that bishonen Angel with gay subtext toward Shinji at neo-NERV, despite being the main reason why Shinji decided to pilot one last time, even if he had to fight his former friends.
Instead of that, WILLE assumes that Shinji piloted again simply because Gendo told him to do it (lolno). The missing DSS Choker? He probably took it off himself somehow (lolno). EVA-13? No need to interrogate him about it, it's just a Single Entry-Plug Eva so all we have to do is stick this Entry Plug Shutdown and all is good (lolno... woopsie).

So what, you're gonna tell me that the entire personnel of NERV was arrested and brought somewhere else before Kaworu could even exited Mark.06 and that Kaji never even mentioned him to Misato and Ritsuko and that Kaworu did nothing in those 14 years except play piano in that floating fortress?
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Re: why WILLE was never able to beat NERV or the opposite, during the 14 years of the timeskip?

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Postby Konja7 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:22 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:So what, you're gonna tell me that the entire personnel of NERV was arrested and brought somewhere else before Kaworu could even exited Mark.06 and that Kaji never even mentioned him to Misato and Ritsuko and that Kaworu did nothing in those 14 years except play piano in that floating fortress?


I guess we can assume WILLE knows about Kaworu, since the DSS Choker seems to be a WILLE's artifact (to control its pilots) and it was created for Kaworu.

That said, it's possible Kaworu was just playing the piano (and maybe working behind the scenes to save WILLE and Lilin) during 14 years after ATI. He needs to wait for the creation of Eva-13 to restore Earth.

NERV could use the dummy plugs to pilot their Evas. And WILLE doesn't need another pilot, since they have only two Evas.

At the end, Khara wants to mantain the mystery about what WILLE knows about Kaworu.


PS: Nuclear Lunchbox gives an explanation about the "single entry plug" part, but I didn't exactly understand.


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