ElMariachi wrote:Besides, having the authorization to shoot "as soon as the pilots are in their Evas" would be meaningless, since by then there wouldn't be any Eva for Shinji to pilot (01 is supposed to be sealed inside the Wunder's engine), and if it's to wait that he's effectively in an Eva to be able to shoot him... well, they can shoot the 80 meter tall armored cyborg with their sidearm, but it won't be very effective.

At this point, with such a badly written script, the inconsistencies and idiocies of WILLE in both 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 are so overwhelming it is difficult detect the small ways in which how they operate make little sense. That NERV and SEELE did not wipe them for 14 years out speaks volumes of how they simply did not give a shit about Misato and her band of idiots.

I find this image in Reichu blog:



Rei has long hair as a soul. I wonder if there is another story for that.

royabr121 wrote:At this point, with such a badly written script, the inconsistencies and idiocies of WILLE in both 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 are so overwhelming it is difficult detect the small ways in which how they operate make little sense. That NERV and SEELE did not wipe them for 14 years out speaks volumes of how they simply did not give a shit about Misato and her band of idiots.

You want something even more hilarious? There are several lines of dialogue in Shin that informs that she never talked with Shinji about what happened to him at neo-NERV: why did he decided to pilot again, who was the person who took the DSS Choker and died instead of him... or anything about EVA-13.

Then comes the final battle, and Asuka manages to trust the Entry Plug Shutdown thingy to EVA-13, which tanks it and still moves, at which point she exclaim surprised "Wasn't it single-entry?"... their plan was based on EVA-13 being a single entry plug Eva, their entire operation to do the final battle to protect humanity hinged on an information that what false, while they had the pilot of said Eva with them all along who could had told them in 5 seconds had they bothered to interrogate him.
hey plan failed before it even began because they couldn't be hassled to ask the only guy who came back from the inside of neo-NERV HQ and piloted the evil Eva that they need to stop.

Genius, simply genius.

ElMariachi wrote:Then comes the final battle, and Asuka manages to trust the Entry Plug Shutdown thingy to EVA-13, which tanks it and still moves, at which point she exclaim surprised "Wasn't it single-entry?"... their plan was based on EVA-13 being a single entry plug Eva, their entire operation to do the final battle to protect humanity hinged on an information that what false, while they had the pilot of said Eva with them all along who could had told them in 5 seconds had they bothered to interrogate him.

It doesn't even tank it. After New Eva-02's AT field deploys and stops the signal plug from being thrust into Eva-13 and Asuka injects her Evangelion with angel blood, Eva-13 shoots her arms off with eye beams, wriggles out of its restraints, chokes her out with two of its hands, and yanks her entry plug out with one of the others. Asuka's defeat is swift and brutal.

Oh, and I'm remembering something I might have seen in the new cut of 3.0+1.01: I think through original Asuka's legs, you can see Kaworu standing in the background.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:放置して またネルフに利用されるよりはマシだろう

I watched the movie twice, but can't quite remember if this line was said as:

放置して！またネルフに利用されるよりはマシだろう -- (either '!' or '.')

(Leave him alone! It's better than Nerv using him again)

...or rather:

放置して、またネルフに利用されるよりはマシだろう -- (comma)

(It's better than leaving him alone, and then have Nerv use him again!)

Moot point, I know...

Is it a flex if I say I saw the movie three times?

The line is punctuated with a brief silence I feel is best represented with a period. Aoba isn't really telling Midori to leave Shinji alone, he's telling her to let the matter in general rest. The sentiment he's sharing is there's no point in getting worked up about Shinji coming on board with them-- while having him on board might be a bit of a pill to swallow, it's preferable to the much worse scenario of Shinji being in a position where Nerv can use him to restart Fourth Impact.

ElMariachi wrote:

royabr121#924694 wrote:At this point, with such a badly written script, the inconsistencies and idiocies of WILLE in both 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 are so overwhelming it is difficult detect the small ways in which how they operate make little sense. That NERV and SEELE did not wipe them for 14 years out speaks volumes of how they simply did not give a shit about Misato and her band of idiots.

You want something even more hilarious? There are several lines of dialogue in Shin that informs that she never talked with Shinji about what happened to him at neo-NERV: why did he decided to pilot again, who was the person who took the DSS Choker and died instead of him... or anything about EVA-13.

Then comes the final battle, and Asuka manages to trust the Entry Plug Shutdown thingy to EVA-13, which tanks it and still moves, at which point she exclaim surprised "Wasn't it single-entry?"... their plan was based on EVA-13 being a single entry plug Eva, their entire operation to do the final battle to protect humanity hinged on an information that what false, while they had the pilot of said Eva with them all along who could had told them in 5 seconds had they bothered to interrogate him.
hey plan failed before it even began because they couldn't be hassled to ask the only guy who came back from the inside of neo-NERV HQ and piloted the evil Eva that they need to stop.

Genius, simply genius.

Wow, just wow. It's clear that if Anno wrote that he did not give a single shit about the plot making sense. It's clear to me that if anything mattered to him, it was the themes - and I am not entirely sure about that. Also, in 3.0, remember Takao said on the Wunder that Kaji told him Misato was crazy? That makes no sense in the context of 3.0+1.0:

1. Royji Jr. does not know his mother so it could not have been him Takao was referring to.
2. We know Kaji is dead, so why is Takao remembering a conversion from at least 14 years ago, especially when he had all that time to see for himself?

I have a theory, given the way in which the entire script writing of rebuilds was done (heck, they had no idea who was Mari up until the final film), that Kaji Sr. was supposed to appear alive and well in 3.0+1.0 instead of his son with Misato. Also, remember the preview for 3.0 at the end of 2.0? That was supposed to be film when they started writing it. I also think WILLE's grudge against Shinji was done in an half-assed way all along: their extreme paranoia of him in 3.0 was at least in part that, at the time, the writers wanted to go with the direction that, at least ostensibly, Shinji was in fact responsible for A3I (because Unit-01 turned to the catalyst and was used by SEELE to initiate it) after N3I. Now they resent him for N3I, which many of them themselves (Misato, Ritsuko, the bridge bunnies) were at least as responsible as Shinji if not more so for either being his commanding officer, building the damn Evangelion in such a way as to being able to initiate an impact (remember Ritsuko was narrating exactly what was going) place and finally, failing to inform both command officers (Misato) and the pilots (Shinji, Asuka, Rei).

royabr121 wrote:I also think WILLE's grudge against Shinji was done in an half-assed way all along - I think their extreme paranoia of him in 3.0 was at least in part that, at the time, the writers wanted to go with the direction that, at least ostensibly, Shinji was in fact responsible for A3I (because Unit-01 turned to the catalyst and was used by SEELE to initiate it) after N3I. Now they resent him for N3I which many of them themselves (Misato, Ritsuko, the bridge bunnies) were at least as responsible as Shinji if not more for either being his commanding officer or the building the damn Evangelion in such a way as to being able to initiate an impact in the first place and failing to inform command officers and pilots.

Honestly, I really think they have mantained the same reason for the grudge of WILLE against Shinji between 3.0 and 3.0+1.0. The reason is that they blame Shinji because the Near Third Impact initiated everything (it was the trigger for the Third Impact). I don't think this has changed.

Now, I understand you don't find these actions or reasons logical or coherent. However, I think the staff really believes that's enough reason to explain WILLE's grudge towards Shinji.

It isn't even so uncommon to see this kind of weird reasoning in anime. Recently, I saw an anime where a group of people tries to kill a goddess, because this goddess is going to fail when she is trying to save the world.


Honestly, I don't think the reason was so important for Anno (that's why he gives us a so vague explanation). The important was always that Shinji was blamed to convey the messages.

Konja7 wrote:

royabr121#924727 wrote:
Honestly, I don't think the reason was so important for Anno (that's why he gives us a so vague explanation). The important was always that Shinji was blamed to convey the messages.

Which is what "themes over plot" is all about - Anno really went overboard with this one. I also agree with you that it is quite common see extremely bad/odd reasoning and motivations in anime. Plot pacing is also something anime creators are very bad at.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Is it a flex if I say I saw the movie three times?

Nahh, I was THIS close to watching it a third time
And I have a terrible memory...

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:The line is punctuated with a brief silence I feel is best represented with a period. Aoba isn't really telling Midori to leave Shinji alone, he's telling her to let the matter in general rest. The sentiment he's sharing is there's no point in getting worked up about Shinji coming on board with them-- while having him on board might be a bit of a pill to swallow, it's preferable to the much worse scenario of Shinji being in a position where Nerv can use him to restart Fourth Impact.

Now, while reading your comment, I can almost hear Aoba saying it

Excuse me, I would like to ask if this sentence is correctly translated:

Kaworu: I see. You're all grown up now. A little sad, but that's okay too.


I've read another translation:

Kaworu: I see. You have already grown up. Though I'be a bit lonely, it's alright.


In itself, both translations aren't so different, but the "A little sad" part could change the meaning.

The word can mean both regardless of the context but there's a more specific one to indicate sadness in particular

The sense, as I take it, is clearly that he feels Shinji has 'outpaced' him in that moment - he's glad for Shinji but feels a bit left behind as he's used to being the mature one.

But as we see later, Kaworu will have the opportunity to become a tall stylish man in his own right.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:I might have seen in the new cut of 3.0+1.01: I think through original Asuka's legs, you can see Kaworu standing in the background.

That's not a new cut, Kaworu was there in the first release too. Maeda talked about it at that stage greeting in April.

I’d totally believe he was originally there, though I thought Maeda was talking about a different shot of zombie Kaworu.

Kendrix wrote:The word can mean both regardless of the context but there's a more specific one to indicate sadness in particular

Yeah. I was a little confused, because the "A little sad" translation doesn't clarify who is sad, but I guess it's still pretty clear it's Kaworu.

Kendrix wrote:The sense, as I take it, is clearly that he feels Shinji has 'outpaced' him in that moment - he's glad for Shinji but feels a bit left behind as he's used to being the mature one.

Your interpretation is pretty good and interesting.

My interpretation of the "a bit loneliness" or "a little sad" is that Kaworu though he would continue to be trapped in the loop, but without meeting Shinji (who will be free from the loop) anymore.

Of course, at the end of Shin, Shinji and Kaworu are free from the loop.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:It doesn't even tank it. After New Eva-02's AT field deploys and stops the signal plug from being thrust into Eva-13 and Asuka injects her Evangelion with angel blood, Eva-13 shoots her arms off with eye beams, wriggles out of its restraints, chokes her out with two of its hands, and yanks her entry plug out with one of the others. Asuka's defeat is swift and brutal.

Then why does she exclaims that it was supposed to be a single entry plug Eva? It doesn't have any link with it activating before she could plant the entry plug shutdown device?

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Oh, and I'm remembering something I might have seen in the new cut of 3.0+1.01: I think through original Asuka's legs, you can see Kaworu standing in the background.

The zombie or quantum version?
By the way, I've read in Reichu's site that the buildings in the mental Tokyo-3 where Shinji and Gendo fight are actually models that break away like in old Kaiju movies, is that true?

royabr121 wrote:Also, remember the preview for 3.0 at the end of 2.0? That was supposed to be film when they started writing it.

Actually, they said in the 3.0 booklet that the timeskip was already planned by the time of 2.0, that's why there are some subtle foreshadowing about it in the movie, such as Kaji mentioning the tale of Urashima Taro. The next time preview at the end of 2.0 was a red herring all along.

royabr121 wrote:I also think WILLE's grudge against Shinji was done in an half-assed way all along: their extreme paranoia of him in 3.0 was at least in part that, at the time, the writers wanted to go with the direction that, at least ostensibly, Shinji was in fact responsible for A3I (because Unit-01 turned to the catalyst and was used by SEELE to initiate it) after N3I. Now they resent him for N3I, which many of them themselves (Misato, Ritsuko, the bridge bunnies) were at least as responsible as Shinji if not more so for either being his commanding officer, building the damn Evangelion in such a way as to being able to initiate an impact (remember Ritsuko was narrating exactly what was going) place and finally, failing to inform both command officers (Misato) and the pilots (Shinji, Asuka, Rei).

Amusingly, I though it was the contrary: that the little bits contradicting Kaworu's story that Shinji is responsible for the red Earth (such as the later reveal that the actual epicenter of 3I is in Lilith's chamber with the 12th Angel) and that Kaworu never told him that he was the one who stopped his N3I 14 years ago hinted that Shinji wasn't actually responsible for it and that WILLE's treatment of him came from something else (just N3I still having damaged and killed many people, and I remember the hypothesis that he wasn't the first thing to had crawled out of EVA-01 and that it was far more dangerious than him, hence the BM-03), and then Shin did the reverse by having all the blame for everything being pinned on him and WILLE's treatment of him really being mere hate and spite.

I never understood why Khara decided to split Third Impact into two events. I simply can't comprehend it. This is not necessarily a criticism. I mean, I have no problem in criticizing NTE when I feel like it's fair. That said, this is different. It just makes me confused. What's the point in this? What is it bringing to the table? It just creates more questions than answers.
In the original series we were introduced to the concept of "Impacts" via the second one. That's a bold thing to do. It entices the audience's curiosity. "Wait a minute! This is the second one, right? Is it something that can happen again? What would a Third Impact look like? Wait, I don't want that to happen!" By showing the "mundane" consequences of Second Impact (through episodes like 7), the story makes us fear the possibility of a third one. However, at the same time, it makes us think about how a Third Impact could be. I think it's very smart how the writers reserved this moment for the end of the story. Even more so because the scene in question is the climax of the narrative (supported by all the emotion that's already there). It feels special.
In NTE they took a different approach. Khara decided to make Third Impact happen midway through the story. I think it's a good idea and subverts our expectations (in a similar fashion to how Toji ended up not being Unit 03's pilot in this continuity). This also makes Shinji's actions have consequences. I don't have the slightest pity on Shinji in Q. "Wow, what a pity, they're treating him badly." Buddy, these people are in the middle of a decade old bloody war. Do you really think I'm going to care about this guy who just woke up? This guy is directly responsible for thousands of deaths. Imagine how many children lost their parents because of him. Still, the movie makes us look at the world through his eyes and I think this is a bold decision. We're not following the heroes, but the guys who want to destroy the world again (even if unintentionally).
That said, this whole situation loses "impact" once the cataclysm to the world's current state is split into two events. Now Shinji is responsible for some of what happened, but not necessarily all of it. Still, the actual Third Impact is a continuation of what took place in HA, so what's the point? It also complicates things when they don't have to be. Shinji started the Third Impact, but Kaworu stopped it. Take a look at the consequences! That's simple and effective. Shinji started the Third Impact's prelude, which was kind of stopped by Kaworu, but actually wasn't. So Kaji had to throw a helicopter at something to save the day and the audience barely saw that. That's crazy.
I also think there are too many impacts on NTE. It's almost one per movie! It's not as special anymore! Compare that to the original series, in which the threat of Third Impact was always there. As each angel arrived, my anxiety increased. That show plays really well with the monster of the week format!
Again, this is not a criticism, but something I simply find weird.

ElMariachi wrote:The zombie or quantum version?

It's zombie Kaworu.

I remember it was said by some people that you could see the the silhouette of Zombie Kaworu when original Shikinami enter on Eva-13.

ElMariachi wrote:Amusingly, I though it was the contrary: that the little bits contradicting Kaworu's story that Shinji is responsible for the red Earth (such as the later reveal that the actual epicenter of 3I is in Lilith's chamber with the 12th Angel) and that Kaworu never told him that he was the one who stopped his N3I 14 years ago hinted that Shinji wasn't actually responsible for it and that WILLE's treatment of him came from something else (just N3I still having damaged and killed many people, and I remember the hypothesis that he wasn't the first thing to had crawled out of EVA-01 and that it was far more dangerious than him, hence the BM-03), and then Shin did the reverse by having all the blame for everything being pinned on him and WILLE's treatment of him really being mere hate and spite.

As we already know how Shin treats Shinji's responsability, I'm pretty sure the plan was always that Shinji will be considered the main responsible for eveything.

The "contradictions" didn't exist to free Shinji from the blame, but it was just a way to hint that there were more events. That said, I started to suspect Shinji understood that the NTI and ATI were different events from Kaworu's words.

The way the events were developed isn't important for the creators (or Shinji). Shinji's Near Third Impact was the origin of everything, then he is to be blamed for the current state of the World. That seems to be the logic.

BernardoCairo wrote:I never understood why Khara decided to split Third Impact into two events. I simply can't comprehend it. This is not necessarily a criticism. I mean, I have no problem in criticizing NTE when I feel like it's fair. That said, this is different. It just makes me confused. What's the point in this? What is it bringing to the table? It just creates more questions than answers.

I think that's the point. Certain storytellers conflate convolution with depth, for instance this infamous quote from Nomura, not known for his stellar writing capabilities, about how he received advice from the Final Fantasy creator on how he should change his narrative approach on Kingdom Hearts back when it was to be a more straightforward adventure tale; "But while I was developing the first Kingdom Hearts, I received a single piece of advice from Sakaguchi-san. That was, 'If you don't make it more complex like with Final Fantasy, you won't be able to compete.'"

I suppose one's appraisals of the results is subjective, but to my mind KH epitomizes 'anime writing' where nothing really means anything and characters have no character. Perhaps certain decisions with NTE weren't made purely for the sake of being good writing, but being profitable and following industry trends.

man am I happy reichu was able to translate my ad file