I completely agree with you, Nuke-senpai! In fact, it reminded me of this post I wrote some time ago: https://forum.evageeks.org/post/920662/Shin-Eva-General-Reborn/#p920662
Neon Genesis Evangelion had at least three protagonists (the ones featured in EoTV's "three cases"), with Shinji being the main character. NTE, on the other hand, chooses to focus itself solely on Ikari (probably because of "time limitations"). As a result, the other characters began to orbit his persona (they are less independent and more intrinsically connected to him). If that's good or not depends on you. It's definitely not great...

Anyway, I actually changed my mind about HA. If any living soul is interested, I wrote some of my thoughts about it in here: https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20862/Evangelion-manga-day-before-Q-what-can-we-expect-in-that-manga/80/#p924622

BernardoCairo wrote:I'm failing to see the big issue here, guys. Asuka still has feelings for Shinji, Mari teases her about it.

I thought that Asuka has decided to move on from Shinji and vice versa, and that Shin had made it apparent that it was over between them.

Unstandstood that the manga is not promoting the development of the main story's plot in this thread.
I also believed that it is just a small foreshadowing or something like adding a self-fulfilling prophecy.
(Shinji used the night, moon, and seaside again for his declaration to Asuka.)

Clearly, the objective of this manga is to put out a fire. (meaning settle down the rumors).

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:While both their appearances are more or less unchanged thanks to the Curse/Bindings of EVA, I can understand why Mari would be thinking Shinji might not remember this strange girl he's only met in the flesh one time. Asuka putting on her old plugsuit is markedly unnecessary, but she does it anyway-- which I'd say says more about her feelings than anything else. She wants to be 100% sure that Shinji remembers who she is.

Agreed, and I guess the broken plugsuit may let Shinji think about what he did to her.
It is a major conflict/contradiction between Shinji and Asuka.
Although I think it is not his responsibility, he can't make any decision to save her or kill her.

As a fighter (clone) life and training, Asuka is already for her death (consciousness).
And already to sacrifice herself for the world.

"ここは私のいるところじゃない、守るところよ"
"It is not the place I live, it is the place I protect."
Her role and sense of responsibility are so clear.
She sacrificed too much for this shitty EVA ROE world.
And the Heroic Image was already established.

======

For the Bechdel Test:
OH NO! Please don't directly apply western political correctness to eastern culture!
It is one of the cultural variations, but it doesn't mean that western political correctness is the TRUTH to anywhere.

For Mari and Asuka, they only have wars, operations, and EVAs.
Asuka can't sleep, eat, and even take a shower. (not enough fresh water in Wunder).
Mari just loves reading and Asuka always playing her game consoles.
And Operation US is attempting to retrieve Eva-01 which is directly related to Shinji.
So why can't they talk about Shinji? And what can I expect they can talk about something else?

I agreed that there is an issue that the story and characters are keep orbiting around Shinji.
However, I strongly disagree with using the Bechdel Test in this manga/eastern fiction.
It will become a prejudice or stereotype.

And as I mentioned before, the objective/motivation of this manga is to settle down the rumors.

======

Honestly, as we can see on Twitter, it may add more than 30mins into BlueRay.
To explain more information and the story.

Wanderer wrote:For the Bechdel Test:
OH NO! Please don't directly apply western political correctness to eastern culture!

Since when is poorly written female characters a part of eastern culture? It's as endemic in the west as anywhere else, and being eastern didn't prevent NGE (or many other narratives from eastern creators) from having inclinations to characterize women and their sense of worth outside just instances of their relationship to men.

As someone who also brought the Bechdel Test up, I actually agree with Nuclear Lunchbox's take. Nonetheless it's an interesting thing to note that it does indeed fit perfectly into its criticism of lopsided gender dynamics and the narrative distribution of what about characters is deemed important to show.

Sorry, but I just got a funny picture in my head of a protest in Japan over the removal of a statue dedicated to shallow female characters, T-shirts and all, chanting "poorly written women are our heritage!"

C.T.1290 wrote:I thought that Asuka has decided to move on from Shinji and vice versa, and that Shin had made it apparent that it was over between them.

That happened at the end of Shin.

In Shin, it's pretty implied that Asuka hasn't let Shinji go (the manga fits with that aspect), that's why she blushed when Shinji confessed he has romantic feelings toward her.

However, the possibility of Asushin is also sunk at the end of Shin. Asuka's Instrumentality is a closure for her feelings toward Shinji and a "goodbye".

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:My point is that I don't think NGE spends less time with Shinji than the movies. I think the movies just spend less time with everyone else, and I honestly think it's a time problem.

It's really not. Let me give you an example of a scene which would work just as well in the same amount of time without revolving as much around Shinji as it does.

Rei visits Asuka in Shin. Now, what's her reason? She's on the lookout for Shinji. But, what if, instead of that being the reason she goes to Asuka, she goes to Asuka because Asuka triggered her journey towards self-actualization in Q? "No, what do YOU want to do?" Scene would go like this:

Asuka: "Oh, it's you. I'll open the door."
Rei6: "I have learned that Thank You is a word of gratitude. I want to say thank you for what you said to me last movie, and for taking me along."
Asuka: "No big deal. What happens now is up to you. Do you know what you want to do now?"
Rei6: "I don't really know. But thinking about Shinji makes me all poka-poka inside."
Asuka: "In that case, let me tell you something. We, the Eva pilots [insert exposition dump]."
Rei6: "I understand. I am content with that."
Asuka: "In that case, go to the ruins. Shinji is sulking there."
Rei6: "Thank you, Asuka."
Asuka: frowns, focuses on her Wonderswan

(Obviously just a rough draft.) So, what's different here? The reason Rei visits Asuka is motivated by something important to her and Asuka, not that she just wants to find out where Shinji is, and it's a follow-up to the scene in Q. Shinji still comes up, but it's more or less incidental. Doesn't take more time than the scene we got, either.

Same is possible in this short manga. They don't have to primarily worry about Shinji. They could also worry about being blasted into space, maybe dying up there, maybe finally recovering the weapon they need to ensure NERV's defeat, talk about their friendship instead, and then they can still make a remark how they might see Shinji again, or they might not. Asuka donning her old suit could be her being more comfortable wearing it. Maybe she fought in that torn suit for the last 14 years. It's a sentimental thing for her. Instead of, you know, patching up a suit that isn't even broken to begin with so that Shinji absolutely recognizes her beyond the shadow of a doubt. That's beyond silly. "I look exactly like I do 14 years ago, there is only one redhead in all of Japan, and I made damn sure to leave an impression on Shinji when we lived together. The only way he doesn't recognize me is if he has amnesia; and if he doesn't remember me, good, then I can finally move on from the guy who in the end did nothing but hurt me. I have new friends now and lived with them for 14 years, I have moved on already anyway."

Of course, if you like the Manga as is, I don't want to convince you otherwise. I just want to argue against the notion that there's some kind of inevitability involved here. It was a concious writing decision to make the story as it is, and it is only one possibility out of many others that are just as easy to realize in the amount of screentime/pages that the writers were given.

Edit:

when Shinji confessed he has romantic feelings toward her.

Just a small correction: he confesses that he had feelings for her, way back when he made her bentos. He's not speaking about the present.

I don't know what to say to that other than... yeah, that's how the scene was written, and that's how the manga is written, because that's what those characters were thinking about at the time. Sure, we could speculate as to all the what-ifs, but Shinji is a real motivator for a lot of these characters. Even in NGE, a lot of Rei and Asuka's interactions are either about Shinji or take place when Shinji is present.

It's also not a great example for what I was talking about, which is just spending time with other characters apart from Shinji. Say, flashbacks like what we get in Episode 05, or Misato and Ritsuko's trip to Tokyo-02 in Episode 07, or the half episode without any of the pilots in Episode 13, or the big chunks of time with just Misato, Ritsuko, and Kaji in Episode 15, or the entire flashback in Episode 21. And that's not even saying anything about all the individual time Asuka and Rei get in Episodes 22 and 23!

But I also count interactions that were about Shinji or motivated by Shinji, so long as he wasn't there. (See episodes 16 and 20.) I liked Asuka and Rei Q's conversation, even if it was primarily motivated by Shinji. For whatever reason, I don't see their character interactions as somehow less meaningful or the two of their characters as less independent just because they were motivated by a different character.

I'm talking less about character motivations revolving around Shinji being a factor of time so much as I am time where the camera is physically away from Shinji. The conversation between Asuka and Rei Q falls pretty squarely into that category for me, which is why it's not a scene I'd use as an example. There might be a handful of scenes from which Shinji himself could be removed without stunting some aspect of his own character development, but certainly not as many as there already were in the television series.

A lot of scenes in NGE revolve around Shinji too, but the show had time to keep all of those and include more scenes that didn't. In the movies, we have to talk about cutting Shinji motivation out. Then we'd probably be having a conversation about how Shinji's so ineffectual, we'd be better off with Asuka as the main character. (Oh wait.)

This goes for the manga as well. It's more fundamentally about these characters and their relationships to Shinji, but it's still what I'm after because Shinji's not there. Him being a topic of conversation or a motivator doesn't bother me as much for some reason.

Yeah, I was just arguing against the "It's due to time constraints" point, and took that scene as an example that you can do different things in the same amount of time without changing any motivations that are already there, but can in fact add new ones. No need to cut anything. That makes for more well rounded characters, which ultimately benefits Shinji as a character, too, because the richer and well fleshed-out the supporting cast, the more meaningful his interactions with them become.

I don't think it really matters whether or not Shinji is there physically. A scene that's still primarily about Shinji or primarily motivated by him is still about Shinji. So, just different points of view there.

Just a small correction: he confesses that he had feelings for her, way back when he made her bentos. He's not speaking about the present.

Now we don't even know if it refers to shikinami (if I'm not mistaken it is a meta-reference for NGE Shinji and Soryu)

At this point in the movie, Shinji remembers his past lives, right?

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Sorry for my English, it is not my native language

T. K. Simon wrote:Now we don't even know if it refers to shikinami (if I'm not mistaken it is a meta-reference for NGE Shinji and Soryu)

At this point in the movie, Shinji remembers his past lives, right?

Shikinami and Soryu are considered different characters even by the staff members.

Then, this means Shinji's romantic confession in the Instrumentality should be toward Asuka Shikinami (not Soryu). Also, it fits that Shikinami previously confessed that she had romantic feelings for him.


Of course, it's also a meta-reference to EoE for the audience. However, there is no implication that Shinji remembering his past lives influenced this confession (we don't even know if NGE is one of his past lives).

Konja7 wrote:

T. K. Simon#924664 wrote:Now we don't even know if it refers to shikinami (if I'm not mistaken it is a meta-reference for NGE Shinji and Soryu)

At this point in the movie, Shinji remembers his past lives, right?

Shikinami and Soryu are considered different characters even by the staff members.

Then, this means Shinji's romantic confession in the Instrumentality should be toward Asuka Shikinami (not Soryu). Also, it fits that Shikinami previously confessed that she had romantic feelings for him.


Of course, it's also a meta-reference to EoE for the audience. However, there is no implication that Shinji remembering his past lives influenced this confession (we don't even know if NGE is one of his past lives).

good point,it's just a meta-reference to eoe

as you say, we don't even know if one of his past lives is NGE, the movie never explains it to you

Kaworu says that Shinji never changes (he is caught in a loop, that every time he dies he is born in another cycle) but we don't even know that it is the same as in NGE.

Konja, do you know anything about the book of life? Kaworu mentions it to someone, if I'm not wrong, does he ever say that he has undergone changes?

T. K. Simon wrote:Konja, do you know anything about the book of life? Kaworu mentions it to someone, if I'm not wrong, does he ever say that he has undergone changes?

This is mentioned in Shin about the Book of Life:

Shinji: I remember now. Again and again, I've come here to meet you.
Kaworu: Your name is listed in "The Book of Life", so we'll continue to meet, many more times. I am you. We're no different.

It seems the book of life is the reason why Shinji is part of the loop (even if he doesn't have memories).

Konja7 wrote:

T. K. Simon#924669 wrote:Konja, do you know anything about the book of life? Kaworu mentions it to someone, if I'm not wrong, does he ever say that he has undergone changes?

This is mentioned in Shin about the Book of Life:

Shinji: I remember now. Again and again, I've come here to meet you.
Kaworu: Your name is listed in "The Book of Life", so we'll continue to meet, many more times. I am you. We're no different.

It seems the book of life is the reason why Shinji is part of the loop (even if he doesn't have memories).

Shinji caught in a loop? explain yourself.

PD: I would like to believe that when Shinji dies, he starts a new cycle, total, Eva is based on Shinji's story.

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sorry for my english, it is not my native language

T. K. Simon wrote:Shinji caught in a loop? explain yourself.

PD: I would like to believe that when Shinji dies, he starts a new cycle, total, Eva is based on Shinji's story.

Kaworu listed Shinji's name in the book of life:

Kaji: That's why you chose him and listed his name in the Book of Life.


We can only theorize

As Kaworu is trapped in the loop, I guess he could meet a Shinji even if Shinji's name isn't listed in the book of life, but he wouldn't be the same Shinji (like Soryu and Shikinami are different characters if you consider NGE as part of the loop).

It's also important to mention that Kaworu's goal is to make Shinji happy. That could imply their past lives doesn't end up pretty good for Shinji.

Konja7 wrote:

T. K. Simon#924674 wrote:Shinji caught in a loop? explain yourself.

PD: I would like to believe that when Shinji dies, he starts a new cycle, total, Eva is based on Shinji's story.

Kaworu listed Shinji's name in the book of life:

Kaji: That's why you chose him and listed his name in the Book of Life.

It seems this is part of Kaworu's wish to make Shinji happy.


We can only theorize

As Kaworu is trapped in the loop, I guess he could meet a Shinji even if Shinji's name isn't listed in the book of life, but he wouldn't be the same Shinji (like Soryu and Shikinami are different characters if you consider NGE as part of the loop).

I think that's why Eva is so cute, her ambiguity, she doesn't bother to explain, that means that there are many theories and that the franchise never dies.

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If it was ever mentioned that the book of life has undergone changes, it could say that NGE is part of the cycles (because the book of life is written). but there is nothing. the most notable differences are (Soryu-Shikinami, Mari, Touji, etc).

references are only meta-references for NGE

PD: If Kaworu has written the name of Shinji in the book, he could also have made changes, but there is no clear evidence

---------------------------------
Sorry for my English, it is not my native language

As for ambiguity, I didn't mean that, heh. I meant in general, maybe I use a bad word to express myself.

-------------------------------------------------- -----

What we know is that they are eternally repeating cycles, this for when Shinji changes.

Kaworu seems to be the only one caught in the loop, that every time he dies he is born in another cycle.

the question is

How do these cycles work, when they end, when they start, they overwrite each other?

A question that may never be answered.

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sorry for my english, it is not my native language

T. K. Simon wrote:As for ambiguity, I didn't mean that, heh. I meant in general, maybe I use a bad word to express myself.

I've noticed that. That's why I deleted that message. Sorry for that.

T. K. Simon wrote:the question is

How do these cycles work, when they end, when they start, they overwrite each other?

A question that may never be answered.

Yeah. We will never exactly know.

Kaworu is who listed the name of Shinji in the book of life. So, I guess Shinji will be free from the loop if he really find happiness. Kaworu will still be trapped in the loop though.

It seems Kaworu and Shinji are free from the loop at the end of Shin.

Honestly I never even thought the manga was more about asushin, I thought there will be about action or some technicals. And never thought that they'll depict Asuka's feeling toward Shinji this dramatic.

In the movie the scene where she confess to Shinji, it feels like it's just like that, can’t really see the emotion and can’t tell that she has that deep “feeling”, she just say that.

However with this manga, it confirms that Asuka’s feeling for Shinji is much more sentimental (shown by her sad expression, closeup and memory of him). But this also made the Goodbye scene on Asuka’s instrumentality feels too short, rushed and abrupt, especially for a person who can't let go her feeling for those long. I don't think the solution offered in the instrumentality will help her get over him.

Now, how about on Shinji's side, towards her, since on the instrumentality said he liked her, but we se no sign of whatsoever in these movies.

I see it differently. Sure, it wasn't as explored as in the original series. That said, it is there. It's just subtle. The first half of HA actually spends some time developing their bond. We got the bedroom scene, the classroom sequence (in which the two are embarrassed by Toji's comment) and some other casual and comical exchanges between them. When she's down, Shinji yells at Gendo. "You should lose someone you care about too. Then you will understand!" In Q, there is also a particular scene in which Shinji is lost in his own thoughts and hears Asuka's voice rejecting his advances again and again (EoE style). She is important to him.
I feel like, in NTE, Shinji has a good and old crush on her. It's nothing crazy, but it's not meaningless either. She's like that one girl you liked in highschool, but wasn't able to properly reach. She's going to have a special place in your heart, but you aren't going to revolve your entire life around her. It's different from NGE, in which their relationship was pushed to the absolute limit.

Derantor wrote:Yeah, I was just arguing against the "It's due to time constraints" point, and took that scene as an example that you can do different things in the same amount of time without changing any motivations that are already there, but can in fact add new ones. No need to cut anything. That makes for more well rounded characters, which ultimately benefits Shinji as a character, too, because the richer and well fleshed-out the supporting cast, the more meaningful his interactions with them become.

In fact, I almost feel like in a paradoxical way the absolute Shinji focus harms his character most of all. NTE's writing feels sort of self-involved and narrowsighted, as if Shinji himself wrote a vanity script.

"Yeah, and everyone is totes obsessed with me, but it's OK, because then I attain ultimate power, which is necessary to accomplish the feat of relieving them of their obsession with me, which they would never do otherwise. I'm just gracious in that way."