Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby Zusuchan » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:25 am

Sefirot Tree Of Life wrote: So they’re just something that will be forgotten and ignored while people will always remember the original.

The reasons for works being remembered are multiple, different and complex and don't even necessarily have the quality of the work as an important indicator (as is evident by the cult movie status of The Room and Plan 9 From Outer Space). Quality does matter, but the quality itself doesn't actually have to be good.

NTE will probably be remembered because it has considerable visibility (it's a popular, commercially very successful work part of a large media franchise), importance (one of the highest-grossing anime films ever part of one of the highest-grossing anime franchises ever), interestingness (not only a part of the critically acclaimed Hideaki Anno's filmography, but his meta-response, in several ways, to his original masterwork; it's quite divisive, having a lot of both fans and haters, which in turn leads to a lot of discussion).

In short-NTE will probably be remembered for reasons that don't necessarily have to do much with its quality.

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:57 am

View Original PostSefirot Tree Of Life wrote:The Rebuilds ruined themselves. I could understand Anno wanted to do something different. But he didn’t do it good. The Rebuilds fail to stand both as a continuation of Eva and as their own series. So they’re just something that will be forgotten and ignored while people will always remember the original.

I can understand you not liking them, but I feel they're hardly deficient films. Jo and Ha watch quite nicely back to back, and while Q can be a little jarring, I felt :|| tied things together quite nicely. People will remember the original, that I don't disagree with... but something tells me NTE will remain part of the discussion in its own right.

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby Archer » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:33 am

If nothing else, the Rebuilds will be remembered for the hilariously over the top schedule slip. And for being one of the few instances that didn’t completely shit the bed after said schedule slip.

Madoka Magika might be giving Evangelion a run for its money though, since 3.0+1.0 was at least a project that was actually planned and announced, whereas a mythical third Madoka movie was only ever rumored to be in somewhat troubled production before finally being announced this year, 8 years after the last movie. My opinions on Rebellion are pretty similar to my opinions on Q, that being that it’s an extremely unsatisfying “middle part” that might be redeemable with a good ending, so we’ll have to see how that goes when the movie finally comes out.

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby GhostlyOcam » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:58 am

My scope is limited to Japanese Twittersphere (if that's even a word), but I can tell that Rebuild is relatively well-received and popular over there even moreso after Shin came out, maybe not as universally acclaimed as NGE yet I think the recent buzz surrounding it is a lot more positive than what I've seen in the English-speaking fandom.

Some Rebuild-only aspects are also starting to get ingrained in popular culture like say, memes, music, or even as specific as photography (e.g. go deep enough in the Shin Eva tag and you'll start seeing "Shin Eva-styled" photography posts), so there's that when it comes to its initial post-ending staying power in public's mind for now. Compared to Game of Thrones which practically everyone just immediately forget the moment its finale aired.
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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby Archer » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 am

To be fair, it’s really, REALLY hard to drop the ball as hard as GOT did with its last two seasons. The higher they fly, the harder they fall, and I don’t think I’ve seen anything fall quite so hard and fast as GOT did. Usually disappointing endings are preceded by a long, slow decline where the show’s already kinda lost its way and has been on life support for a while, and while GOT undeniably declined in its later seasons, I believe the fanbase would’ve cut them some slack for it had the ending delivered.

If 3.0+1.0 had turned out to be disappointing, I don’t even think it would be comparable to GOT, because honestly that’s what a lot of people were already expecting anyways. It’s not often that schedule slip of THAT degree actually results in a good end result, and it’s not like people were expecting them to ACTUALLY go ahead and make a 2.5 hour long movie, which is one of the basic prerequisites that must be satisfied for it to even have a CHANCE of being good.

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby baldur » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:15 pm

This might be getting a little off topic but I can't resist Game of Thrones/ASOIAF discourse.

View Original PostArcher wrote:To be fair, it’s really, REALLY hard to drop the ball as hard as GOT did with its last two seasons. The higher they fly, the harder they fall, and I don’t think I’ve seen anything fall quite so hard and fast as GOT did.

What makes the situation interesting to me is the divide in the fanbase between book readers and the more general audience. Whereas many book readers could diagnose adaptational issues that were cropping up very early on and were in the process of snowballing into something much larger, the majority of the audience remained completely ignorant of these. Most people seem to characterize what happened with the show as only a case of a disappointing final season, but I see it very differently.

View Original PostArcher wrote:Usually disappointing endings are preceded by a long, slow decline where the show’s already kinda lost its way and has been on life support for a while

To me, Game of Thrones was a show that had been on a steady decline as far back as, like, Season 2. Not that the show was absolutely awful that early on, but it was steadily getting worse and by Season 5 I honestly think that it had become pretty terrible. But the vast majority of viewers didn't see it that way at all, and the show was still on the top of its game in Season 6 and even 7 in terms of audience goodwill and overall popularity.

View Original PostArcher wrote:while GOT undeniably declined in its later seasons, I believe the fanbase would’ve cut them some slack for it had the ending delivered.

That's what I find so interesting. I think the show was more or less doomed from the start. Season 8 is such a bizarre creature to me because it's continuing a story that, by this point, has morphed into trite fantasy rubbish that is in no way faithful to the spirit of the original narrative, but then it takes a U-Turn and attempts to stitch onto this bastardized, degenerated version of the story conclusions that only work in the context of that original narrative. So it's this weird Frankenstein's monster which no one is really satisfied with. Like, the general audience is enraged that they didn't get Jon and Dany Sue on the Iron Throne, ruling a prosperous Seven Kingdoms through the power of Targaryen incest, while book readers are upset at how terribly built up and written the whole thing is. I guess a way of looking at it is that the general audience is angry about the destination, while the readers are angry about the journey (though even that is an overly simplistic perspective, in general GOT is just a clusterfuck and the discourse surrounding it is appropriately deranged).

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby GhostlyOcam » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:46 pm

Going back to the topic earlier and also giving my own answer about the thread's main question, I think Rebuild actually did more than enough to inject more life to the franchise as in essentially creating a new "Eva wave" in 21 century, every film release is a major event and in the end, it left a considerable mark in Japan's modern pop culture history, for better or worse depending on how you feel about it.

I get that because they're Evangelion films but we've seen other franchises' attempt to have another shot with sequels/retellings like Eureka Seven's tragically continous failure with everything that came after the OG series (the recent Hi-Evolution trilogy is like the series' own attempt at Rebuilding itself, even), if Rebuild was as close as THAT terrible then I don't think the interest in Eva would've been still this big nowadays.

So personal preferences aside, I really can't see Rebuild being just immediately forgotten as soon as it ends, it will either be held as a worthy entry to Anno's filmography or a reminder there's a superior older version, I really think it will still be a part of conversation years after this, yet even that is still a bit too early to tell considering the final film is still only available in Japan anyway.

Now, you might notice that I have nicer words to say about Rebuild so here's the thing: 1.0 and 2.0 were my VERY first introductions to Eva, seriously. You may laugh that I started with what is often considered as the inferior retelling but if those two entries are enough to hook my 13 years old self to check out NGE, losing my mind over 3.0 and waiting for 9 years with everyone else for the final film, I think it's a testament of how captivating the world created by Anno is even for some kid whose only experience with anime was basically early morning TV animes back then.

So in that sense, Rebuild was and still is "My Eva", the one that will always be a part of my life journey from being a teenager to an adult because holy hell this thing takes way too long to get finished, whereas NGE is the fascinating piece of history that I always well, fascinated by its existence. It's cheesy as hell but it really is how I feel.

So neither NGE and Rebuild should ruin each other, they're their own things.

Okay, to be fair, I think one's experience of Rebuild might vary depending on how you see whether it holds up to NGE's name or not, but NGE will always be there untouched by time, the one made by Hideaki Anno from 25 years ago and if that's what you consider as the one and only Evangelion story, then all is well.

But man, am I glad Rebuild exists.
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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby Joseki » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:56 pm

I won't to spoil, but to a degree I have to say yes after Shin.
There is a level of metacommentary and implications in the movie that undermine the very reasons why I like and relate to Eva in the first place, and even if I don't acknowledge them as relevant to NGE and its message, the fact that they are there is a stain on Eva as a whole that I have difficulties trying to overlook.

Proper Shin/3.0+1.0 ending spoilers here
I warned you  SPOILER: Show
The implication that the old characters need a deus ex machina, in the form of Mari, to achieve a happy ending, one that is actually an acceptance of their undeniable incompatibility, is the aspect of Shin that "ruined" the OG series for me. It retroactively implies NGE/EoE can't give Shinji, Asuka, Rei or Kaworu a truly positive future without involing external factors. As I wrote in other posts in the forum section I have other issues, but they are self contained in the Rebuild series, this is not.

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby baldur » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:54 pm

No way that I'm going to read that, but damn, that really piques my curiosity about 3.0+1.0. I have no idea what to expect with that film.

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby Konja7 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:23 pm

I was never a big fan of OG Evangelion, so it's pretty difficult Rebuild will "ruined" for me.

That said, I really like the Rebuild movies. When I started to see these films, I didn't rememeber much about OG Evangelion, but I still liked Rebuild movies a lot (especially 2.0 and 3.0). I like a lot what I heard about 3.0+1.0 too.


View Original PostJoseki wrote:Proper Shin/3.0+1.0 ending spoilers here
I warned you  SPOILER: Show
The implication that the old characters need a deus ex machina, in the form of Mari, to achieve a happy ending, one that is actually an acceptance of their undeniable incompatibility, is the aspect of Shin that "ruined" the OG series for me. It retroactively implies NGE/EoE can't give Shinji, Asuka, Rei or Kaworu a truly positive future without involing external factors. As I wrote in other posts in the forum section I have other issues, but they are self contained in the Rebuild series, this is not.

I should say that I mostly disagree with this interpretation of Shin ending.
Last edited by Konja7 on Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby Blockio » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:31 pm

Okay let's stop the spoiler talk here.
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Re: Did Rebuild ruin the original series for you? [NO SPOILERS]

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Postby hui43210 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:02 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I should say that I mostly disagree with this interpretation of Shin ending.


Yeah, that's pure BS, and that's all I'll say about that.
I mean, predictability is the central attraction and the narrative hook that we've all come to expect from the Evangelion franchise. How come Anno can't realize this? Twice? - FreakyFilmFan4ever


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