C.T.1290 wrote:

T. K. Simon#923127 wrote:
It sank into this continuity, but not in NGE. Also i never ship shikinami with Shinji

Because of how she’s actually a clone and not Soryu?

In regards to shikinami, he never had a development with Shinji that is enough. It will have happened off-screen, but that's speculation.

Blockio wrote:Let's shift focus away from AsuShin and back to the topic of the thread, shall we?

In relation to mari, I do not bother, beyond that there was no development in their "relationship", it is something new, apart from the old, you must know new things and not stay only with the old, that is the message of the film

Huagh wrote:The fact that they made their goodbye scene the EoE beach so that we can harken back to their NGE relationship so that we know why Shinji is even saying he liked Asuka because it was flat out never shown in the Rebuilds tells us all we need to know about their relationship in the Rebuilds.

This is why I'm convinced that he remembers the EoE timeline at this point & that's where this is coming from (especially given his relative non-reaction to her earlier confession); He's saying what he wished he had said instead on the beach, or like, apologizing & in that sense I actually kinda like it.
Though you could also picture that since he thinks he's about to die, he's just telling her what she wants to hear - though I think it's the meta reading that makes the most sense. If there was some parallel universe where your childhood crush liked you back, wouldn't you kinda want to know?
It's less about romance than making up all the (real & perceived) failures towards her; the movie was supposed to wrap up the whole franchise- I agree that they chose at this point to make the rebuilds less of/ not fully work as a standalone thing, but the same could be said of the 'statue scene' with Kaworu where Shinji directly references previous meetings.
Both of these only make sense as a meta thing.

That's all he does after getting his act back together; Probably a wise choice since she has much reason to be mad at him but is also in a bad place herself, it's probably the one way he can do anything for her, but, it wouldn't be a good basis for a relationship, no one has the patience to crawl on their knees forever.

Konja7 wrote:However, in Shin, Shinji only says he has romantic feelings toward Asuka.

He doesn't; There's no 'only' anywhere in the text & Ha is full of various characters reacting/ referring two the two as together (Misato (twice!), Kensuke, Asuka herself...) to point out only the most obvious things, & there are enough official statements, production materials etc. that it's very much the intention for there to be a romantic component there.

ppl can and do in fact at times have more than 1 crush.

AsuShins like acting like Asuka was ever "the" Love interest when she was always just one option in a triangle setup... at most. Kaworu was more ambiguous, but it was very much intended as a possible reading, & while Misato was never realistic as endgame, the makers liked playing enough with than angle enough to have unlikely circumstances conspire to provide an excuse for a kiss scene...
In the end all are more or less made impossible by various reasons cause it's a tragic story; and in the first place they're all there to create certain situations/feelings & be a metaphor for human dilemma, not for a soap-opera "who's gonna win!" type plot.
So it makes sense not to full-on resolve it cause it's not like being torn between conflicting desires ever goes away.

This time around, everyone walks away alive including Kaworu & Rei, so who knows what happens after that.
But if even Ogata's saying that she read Mari as a mentor, I hardly think that we need to conclude that they're an item or treat that as an absolute fact rather than a "maybe???"

Kendrix wrote:He doesn't; There's no 'only' anywhere in the text & Ha is full of various characters reacting/ referring two the two as together (Misato (twice!), Kensuke, Asuka herself...) to point out only the most obvious things, & there are enough official statements, production materials etc. that it's very much the intention for there to be a romantic component there.

ppl can and do in fact at times have more than 1 crush.

People could have more than one crush. However, if Shinji has a crush on other people apart from Asuka, this would be mentioned in Shin.

The fact that Shin only mentioned Shinji's crush in Asuka is because the creators are denying that Shinji has romantic feelings for the other characters. Consider that Shinji also has an Instrumentality scenes with Rei or Kaworu, but he never mentioned romantic feelings.

That said, they only create Shinji's romantic feelings toward Asuka in Rebuild, so they can sunk Asushin at the end.

In Ha, we have characters assuming things about the relationship between Rei and Shinji, but romantic feelings were never confirmed.


Another thing, I'm not Asushin fan in the Rebuild movies. In these movies, I like a lot more Shinji's relationship with Rei or Kaworu.

Kendrix wrote:This time around, everyone walks away alive including Kaworu & Rei, so who knows what happens after that.
But if even Ogata's saying that she read Mari as a mentor, I hardly think that we need to conclude that they're an item or treat that as an absolute fact rather than a "maybe???"

A voice actor hardly knows more than the audience, since many times they aren't informed of the context. Not to mention that Ogata isn't Shinji's voice actor in the Epilogue.

I think the Epilogue wants to show Shinji and Mari as an item. It isn't even subtle about this.

I think Mari was invented to be Shinji’s new love interest, one on the more healthier side, and not one to have him ended up in a toxic relationship. And a part of Anno’s intentions to “destroy” Evangelion. So, he replaced Asuka with Mari instead, and have Shinji move on from Asuka as he moved on from Evangelion in general. While this may have pissed off some AsuShin fans, I think it has to be done in order for Anno to move on from his troubled past, much like he did with Shinji: to let the past die.

Besides, Shinji seems to be much happier around Mari, and it basically pleases some MariShin fans. So it was a win for them.

I wouldn't even say A/S has no development in the Rebuilds as a whole, in fact it seems quite clear that Shin spends a considerable amount of time with their relationship, however it is built more on the legacy of NGE/EoE than 2.0 and 3.0, which is bizarre. Like I mentioned before, the EoE beach has no significant to Rebuild!Shinji and Shikinami, only to NGE!Shinji, Sohryu and the audience. And that just makes it even weirder. They ended up using the last movie to give them more development. It might say something about them in a more meta/franchise sense, but it's still a lazy way to go about it.

Konja7 wrote:[I've understood Anno also see Kaworu as an extension of Shinji. So, the same reason why Reishin wouldn't happen apply to Kawoshin.

In Shin, it is also mentioned Shinji and Kaworu are similar.

Yes. In fact:

The plan was that the ‘un­con­scious Shin­ji-kun’ would be Ayanami Rei, the Shin­ji-kun who ap­pears on the sur­face would be Ikari Shin­ji, and the ‘ideal Shin­ji-kun’ would be Nag­isa Ka­woru-kun. [Ka­woru was] sup­posed to be an ideal male but when I tried putting him to­gether he was just a strange fel­low (laugh­s). That was some­thing of a lack of ca­pa­bil­ity on my part.

post/478968/Is-Rei-still-retrievable-as-a-human/#478968

And...

In addition he has no empathy with Rei and doesn't understand her; she is related to him only through his "unconscious". In this interview Anno says something to the effect that he (consciously) identifies with Shinji, Asuka, and Misato, but Kaworu and especially Rei belong to his unconscious (Kaworu is his "shadow").

post/405232/Books-Shizo-Parano/#405232

And EoTV and EoE spend a lot of time showcasing the similarities between Misato/Asuka/Shinji. EoE in particular actually has Shinji himself saying to Asuka that she is just like him, during a metaphysical sex fantasy with her. And you know sexuality in Eva is used to mean people connecting etc etc.

Huagh wrote:It’s unfortunate this same luxury wasn’t granted to Kaworu, who: [...]
Instead, Kaworu says he was “attracted” to Shinji, all while using an ambiguous word for “attracted”. This was a huge missed opportunity, especially since Shinji also now has loop memories and remembers the events of episode 24.

Only if you assume this relationship to have had a romantic intention behind it in the first place. And Khara will probably translate it as "drawn [to]" not unlike the manga. Even in EoE Rei has sexual imagery with Shinji but framed in an entirely different manner. This doesn't seem to be quite the case for NTE, but in NGE Asuka's role as being outside Shinji's zone of comfort (an "Other" as Evangelion Chronicle puts it) is exactly what made her in NGE to be the symbol of the exterior world and something outside Eva, of the "Nerv Family" as Azuma put it. Even if Asuka herself was also a "slave" to Nerv, and even though, and I reiterate after my quotes that all characters are extensions of Shinji and thereby Anno, neither Kaworu nor Rei are special or an exception and this feels like cherrypicking. I think this is probably why Mari took this role in the end - she is exterior the the "classic Eva legacy"... she'd "destroy Evangelion".

Of course, that was at least the idea... I don't think that was executed well enough.

As for the remaining discussion, a love interest is quite a broad concept, at the end of the day. I think Misato is the most obvious example of an "option" that was never considered to be a serious contender, even if you'd explore some sort of theme of "tension" with her, the way it's resolved doesn't mean you can definitely say she had romantic or sexual feelings for Shinji (problematic implications aside). Same for Asuka with Kaji, for that matter. Just because something can inevitably be interpreted in another way doesn't mean it should, when you weigh in the whole. I'm not even getting into the supplemental material issue.

Konja7 wrote:A voice actor hardly knows more than the audience, since many times they aren't informed of the context. Not to mention that Ogata isn't Shinji's voice actor in the Epilogue.

Usually I'd agree, but:

"One day, I got a call from Khara, Inc. saying, 'We'd like to discuss the scenario,' so I went there and had a meeting. Anno said, 'I want to know your opinion on how to deal with Shinji's inability to speak at the end of 3.0.' "I told him, 'I'll do whatever Anno decides,' but he said, 'Now I feel closer to Gendou than Shinji. The only people who can understand Shinji's feelings now are Ogata and [Anno's assistant] Ikki Todoroki' (laughs)."

And CT, though I wouldn't say this is about pissing off anyone (people really need to let go of the "anno's revenge" myths), I guess you're not too far off from my idea that Mari represents externality... still, this is an extremely lame way to go about it, and the fact they went ahead and almost retconned NTE A/S to give it a decent resolution is borderline appalling. People have previously mentioned how Mari doesn't feel like she has earned that position, and her actual character (what little there is of it) feels like the worst candidate due to her being pretty much the waifuest waifu around. Literally fell from the sky, after all. Sakura is something that could have made more sense (and eliminated the bizarre age gap/groomer implication), like in hodges' fic.

FelipeFritschF wrote:Only if you assume this relationship to have had a romantic intention behind it in the first place.

I don’t really want to debate the “ambiguity” of Kaworu and Shinji’s relationship, but I reckon a lot more people read their scenes as being of a romantic interest than not. It’s not like Anno, Gainax, or khara have ever denied those readings, in fact they played into it. But that’s besides the point. Shinji himself says in episode 24 that Kaworu was the first person to tell him that they liked/loved him. Again, this isn’t mentioned in their goodbye scene in 3.0+1.0, even though they both remember the events of that episode by the point they reunite again. I think that is a big missed opportunity. It would have been great for Shinji to finally be able to say those words to him as well, even if it were just as friends.

The problem is, ppl are different in handling "move on" things. Some could face it just like making a new cup of instant drink, some would've done some therapy sessions, some even unable to move on at all and carry those burden till their end.

I somehow understand @joseki 's opinion about accepting Mari in the ending.
For those fans who had been following Eva since 26 years, there are many fans that has made connection with the characters, what's happen between and around them and what circumstances they'd been.
Even waiting for the next episode (or chapter/stage on the manga) seems building their own expectations and stirr their feelings.
Some might take it lightly, it's be just a fictional characters, but for some ppl it's an escape or even a projection of themselves since real life isn't amazing.

Some fans had deeper emotional connection with the characters rather than the creator/casts/crews with the characters itself.

So back to the topic, somehow i think it'll be better without any confirmation at all from the creator and leave that ending in fanwank.

Those who disagree with marishin had a lot material to debunk it, and those who agree with also has lots to confirm /support it. Maybe there will be comment from the creator sometimes in the future.
But until then, what we literally see are, a "slight flirtation", holding hands and run together up the stairs, and run together (without holding hands) in the real world. And all that leaves us fans to (myriadly) interpret .

I think in regarding to Asuka and Kaworu's relationship with Shinji there is also some degree of "having the cake and eating too". As Miyamura said in the pamphlet, there was some thoughts given to pleasing the Asuka x Shinji fans in Shin (the last "baka Shinji" and the beach scene), the general confirmation that Asuka x Shinji is a love relationship in the franchise as a whole and at the same time the movie also closes that door but not totally, as there is room for interpretation in the ending.
With Kaworu is pretty much the same thing, they are destined to meet each other for eternity and they promise they'll be friends forever, but that relationship too is seemingly something that Shinji may have left in the past, or maybe he didn't.
I presume the same may apply for Rei too.

In a sense, Mari is the pilot who by being "the one" near Shinji at the end leaves more possibilities for all scenarios to still happen in the future, possibly making the ending even more open ended then having Shinji with everyone or alone, as I don't think the relationship between them would have been taken as romantic if their interactions stopped at the beach scene.

I don't think we are ever going to get any sort of "official" confirmation of intents, Anno is a great director and also a great producer, he knows how to please and teaser the fans, I don't see him ever shutting down any relationship clearly.

FelipeFritschF wrote:Usually I'd agree, but:

Oh, I know Anno's interview. Ogata understand Shinji, but the direction for the character is still decided by the creators. And it's pretty likely Ogata isn't informe about this direction.

It's also curious, Ogata didn't make Shinji's voice in the Epilogue.

Joseki wrote:With Kaworu is pretty much the same thing, they are destined to meet each other for eternity and they promise they'll be friends forever, but that relationship too is seemingly something that Shinji may have left in the past, or maybe he didn't.
I presume the same may apply for Rei too.

It's implied Kaworu is free from the loop at the end. This loop is a "curse" for him, then Shinji seems to free Kaworu from it. In the same way, Shinji free Rei and Asuka from their "curses".

The Instrumentality and the Epilogue have definitely "goodbye" vibes, then it seems Shinji won't mantain contact for a while. However, it's always possible that they will meet again in the future (maybe after Shinji find his own place in the World).

Joseki wrote:I don't think we are ever going to get any sort of "official" confirmation of intents, Anno is a great director and also a great producer, he knows how to please and teaser the fans, I don't see him ever shutting down any relationship clearly.

It has been established that Anno is not as interested in pleasing fans as he is in getting his messages across. Now, his work as a director for Eva is done, so he has even less reason to care what fans feel about a couple.

That said, Anno most likely won't give us a direct answer, because he prefers that we theorize.

I have 2 questions:

Does this ending affect EoE?
I understand that the universe reboots. But at that time or millions of years?

I was more surprised by this movie ending with a "shipping" end in itself considering the previous two endings were nothing like that at all. Shinji ending up with Mari isn't actually all that much of a shock to me.
We look for traits we lack in our romantic partners, we seek to "complement" ourselves through other people.

As Anno says in Parano (quote roughly translated by me):

>Anno: In regards to the characters, I especially emotionally identify with Shinji, Misato, and Asuka. Kaworu-kun is my shadow. Rei is the innermost, unconscious part of me. I give shape to the characters with the parts that seep out of me without interfering as much as possible.
>庵野: とくにシンジ、ミサト、アスカには、自分に近いものを感じますね。で、シャドーとしてカヲル君。レイは僕の一番コアな、深層の部分でつくってます。できるだけ自分は無干渉にして、にじみ出るところだけで形にしていますね。

If Rei is the unconscious Shinji/Anno, Kaworu is the ideal Shinji/Anno, and Asuka/Misato are also other Shinjis/Annos, then...
It makes perfect sense for Shinji to end up with Mari - the one true foreign other who is completely unlike himself.
And as others have pointed out, this may be why Anno was so adamant on having other directors and staff work on Mari's scenes and her character. He wanted nothing to do with her because he didn't want to make her another Shinji.

That's why I always disagreed with this sentiment that Asuka played the role of the "other" in NGE. She was very clearly also another Shinji, in fact she hated him in part BECAUSE she saw herself in him. So I knew she was never going to be the endgame option either.
But now with this EoE scene in Shin Eva, this makes Kaworu and Asuka the only two characters who got suki love confessions in Eva's canon (both kiss scenes too if you count the Manga as the 3rd canon). I personally always saw Kaworu and Asuka deliberately framed as the two love interests for Shinji in NGE, but only as a narrative device to show a duality in his character and how he relates to others on a romantic level - I never wanted nor thought Eva was going to have him end up in a relationship with either of them. I feel like this movie furthered my interpretation.
There are so many cool contrasts between Asuka/Shinji's and Kaworu/Shinji's relationships that I rarely ever see talked about - Asuka hated Shinji / pushed him away because she saw herself in him, Kaworu loved Shinji / was drawn to him because he saw himself in him (as confirmed in this movie).
It took Asuka and Shinji an entire episode to "sync" together in episode 9, it took Kaworu and Shinji 2 seconds to "sync" together in 3.0. Asuka and Shinji's relationship was fueled by lust and little romantic love; Kaworu and Shinji's relationship was fueled by romantic love and little lust, etc etc
Both relationships are two opposites of a spectrum; existing in parallel in Eva, and although I think both were equally pushed as romantic options for Shinji in the OG series - this movie confirms what I always suspected: both of them were never the endgame. Both Asuka and Kaworu are just two ends of a scale in being Shinjis themselves. In hindsight, I really should've saw the Mari endgame coming...it just makes way too much sense!

Also on another shipping-related note

TyroLuuki wrote:Both relationships are two opposites of a spectrum; existing in parallel in Eva, and although I think both were equally pushed as romantic options for Shinji in the OG series - this movie confirms what I always suspected: both of them were never the endgame. Both Asuka and Kaworu are just two ends of a scale in being Shinjis themselves. In hindsight, I really should've saw the Mari endgame coming...it just makes way too much sense!

Where is the relationship between Rei and Shinji in this spectrum?

It's a curious thing, because I see the lust from Shinji towards Rei in the TV series (like a pool scene), but this lust seems almost non-existent in the Rebuild movies.

I however prefer to see Mari as a saviour figure for Shinji. Thus made her an important character as they meant. Does someone who saved you have to be romantic one in the end? Well, I don't think so.

Couples had their quarrels. Sometimes best buddies, friends, families, relatives etc could help you with solve that.
Helping hands comes from the outside of the turmoil circles.
Being in romantic one means she is also in the circle.
Maybe she'll help him find someone completely new and decent girl in that reality, who knows.

As for the "flirting" & holding hands, well don't we all had time when ppl misunderstood us when we're walking in pair with our friend or relative

That's just my preference anyway. Tbh i'd like her to be in a more "higher" roles, rather than to be just another couple to ship with.

It has nothing to do with the theme but....

With all the information we have, is the sequel theory true? After EoE (beach scene) the universe ended and rebooted instantly?

Where is the relationship between Rei and Shinji in this spectrum?

Smack-dab in the middle. In NGE I think Rei served as a sort of Anima to Shinji, that's why she's presented as being his "inner voice" in a lot of metaphysical sequences. Yes, Shinji was definitely physically attracted to her like with all the female characters - but by no means did Shinji ever try to rob her of her agency and make her an object for sexual gratification like he did with Asuka in EoE, that's what I mean by his relationship being fueled by lust with her. To me, Rei and Shinji's relationship very much emphasized equality whereas Asuka/Shinji and Kaworu/Shinji were anything but in their extreme one-sidedness. I thought they'd continue this with Rei in Rebuild but it seems like it was dropped sometime in the middle of 2.0. Instead I got the impression of a more familial bond between them even though Rei definitely had romantic feelings for him.

T. K. Simon wrote:is the sequel theory true?

From what I can tell the only concrete info we have is that there are "cycles" going on, they're all occurring in the same universe, and Kaworu and Shinji remember the events of NGE/EoE by the end of this movie, and directly refer to them. The movie never bothers to explain in specifics how that is all happening because it's mostly there to present Rebuild as a meta-sequel/response to NGE/EoE.

TyroLuuki wrote:From what I can tell the only concrete info we have is that there are "cycles" going on, they're all occurring in the same universe, and Kaworu and Shinji remember the events of NGE/EoE by the end of this movie, and directly refer to them. The movie never bothers to explain in specifics how that is all happening because it's mostly there to present Rebuild as a meta-sequel/response to NGE/EoE.

I've understood you can see images of NGE/EoE in Rei's Instrumentality (although I'm not totally sure if this is true). So, she maybe remember the "cycles" too.

It isn't totally confirmed the NGE/EoE is part of the "cycles", but there is a good amount of meta references.


PS: If NGE/EoE is part of the "cycles", it should be the beginning.

I don't think they'll ever gonna confirmed it, they'll just leave it open so fans can choose their prefered interpretation.

bogusman wrote:I don't think they'll ever gonna confirmed it, they'll just leav it open so fans can choose their prefered interpretation.

Fair enough.