How did Kaworu born?

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Slowpokeking
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How did Kaworu born?

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Postby Slowpokeking » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:58 pm

Did he born through human and grow from a baby, or just came out from nowhere like the other angels? I always wonder that.

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Re: How did Kaworu born?

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:14 pm

This will probably turn out vastly different between Rebuild and the OG series so I'm gonna focus on the latter.

It's possible that when they first made the OG series he was really only meant to have come "inexplicably out of nowhere like all the other angels" and was person-shaped just because it would be evil and that whole "angels not being so different from humans" theme. (compare how Sandalphon's cocoon show it resembling a human embryo until the moment it hatches and turns into its familiar killer trillobite form. )

One of the drafts had him living a pretty typical human life until he realized his 'mission'

Then he became a fan-favorite, probably leading the makers to think about him some more & flesh this out.

With the DC and EoE & associated promo materials it clearly looks like he's kind of SEELE's counterpart to Rei.
  • We get that DC scene implying he has adam's soul
  • that line early in EoE where SEELE says that they will "no longer rely on Adam or the angels" (implying that plan A was Kaworu touching Lillith)
  • That 'recording' of second impact in DC ep 21 mentioning how the cause of SI was a 'contact experiment' involving human DNA

The Manga (different continuity but made by someone who'd have been privy to the production meetings) also outright spells this out in it's counterpart of the scene where Misato visits Ritsuko in jail - A part-human angel was created through the contact experiment, and SEELE somehow obtained it.

In this scenario it's likely that instead of 'hatching' not long before he was 'deployed', he mostly grew up at the pace of a human kid at SEELE's labs.

I'd imagine that a typical Angel Cocoon was probably involved at some point, from which a baby or toddler emerged, a bit like the half-divine Helen of Troy being born from an egg. It seems hard to fish a baby out of the post SI wasteland sea.

The details are not specified & have been subject to much fanfic.
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Re: How did Kaworu born?

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Postby Slowpokeking » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:44 pm

Wasn't he born in the same day of the 2nd impact?

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Re: How did Kaworu born?

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Postby Archer » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:48 pm

Same way Rei was “born”, I assume - grown in a vat somewhere and injected with Adam’s soul.

Slowpokeking wrote:Wasn't he born in the same day of the 2nd impact?


Can’t remember if it was theory or “fact” that Kaworu’s host is (a clone of) the dude who initially “dove” into Adam’s core.

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Re: How did Kaworu born?

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:55 pm

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:Wasn't he born in the same day of the 2nd impact?


That's what it says on his file - and it's technically true, as all the angels were created then. But it doesn't have to mean anything more than that.
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Re: How did Kaworu born?

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Postby Berserker » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:36 pm

Wait, so what I've in my mind as the two hypothetical possibilities for all these times are merely headcannons of my own or some theories I had probably stumbled upon long ago on the internet? I can't recall of them being which, but anyway they're basically this- either he was simply made as a clone in lab like most of the fandom probably like to think, using Adam's remainings and sample of another unknown human donor supposedly coming into play(as the eariler one being already dead in the 2nd impact), later the soul being injected into him from the embryo as that could've been the only vessel of Adam's soul for the time being(which is kind of a stretch). Or, the more interesting one, he was born on the day of second impact, on that very moment of Adam reducing to embryo, while the donor still being in contact with him, Kaworu being an extra, yet deliberate outcome of the experiment. Just think of any simple chemical reaction for analogical instance. But obviously, this comes with other slight intricacies such as how Kaworu automatically gains the status of survivor dos of 2nd impact, other than only Misato. Presumably, Seele made arrangements to pick him up later or something. In a sense, this isn't surprising at all. This isn't the first thing Seele kept Nerv in the dark of.

The latter one explains the whole Adam soul conundrum as in how Kaworu got Adam's soul in the first place, more precisely speaking, Adam reincarnated into Kaworu whereas it would've been more logical if the embryo had his soul all along.
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Re: How did Kaworu born?

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Postby walucigi » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:51 pm

View Original PostBerserker wrote:Or, the more interesting one, he was born on the day of second impact, on that very moment of Adam reducing to embryo, while the donor still being in contact with him, Kaworu being an extra, yet deliberate outcome of the experiment. Just think of any simple chemical reaction for analogical instance.


IIRC, Hyuga points out in like episode 24 that Kaworu's birthday is the day that the Second Impact occurred. On top of that, the absolute reason why the Second Impact happened in the first place was because Misato's father was conducting experiments on Adam.

My personal belief is that Dr Katsuragi tried to make a similar item to Rei using Adam. This then caused the Second Impact due to the experiment 'failing'.. and in turn caused Kaworu's birth. Then soon after Gendo took that idea and created Rei without causing another Impact.
I also think the reason why the Third Impact didn't happen during Rei's birth is because Lilith is the progenitor of humankind, whereas Adam wasn't related to humans at all. Rei's birth was succesful because she was being made into a human. And Adam's failed because he is the progenitor of the angels (which is also probably why Kaworu is classified as an angel and Rei isn't).
Anyways that's just my guess.

edit 042221:
Forgot to mention that people working under Dr Katsuragi (at the lab in Antarctica) probably didn't realise Kaworu was an angel until right before their death. Misato obviously wouldn't have known because she was young and confused when her father put her in the capsule, so she thats why she was suprised when she found out Kaworu was an angel. My guess as to what Kaworu was doing prior to becoming a pilot is that SEELE found him and later gave him to Gendo, but were unaware that he was an angel. Idk tho
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Re: How did Kaworu born?

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Postby Lavinius » Sun May 02, 2021 9:55 pm

View Original Postwalucigi wrote:My personal belief is that Dr Katsuragi tried to make a similar item to Rei using Adam. This then caused the Second Impact due to the experiment 'failing'.. and in turn caused Kaworu's birth. Then soon after Gendo took that idea and created Rei without causing another Impact.
I also think the reason why the Third Impact didn't happen during Rei's birth is because Lilith is the progenitor of humankind, whereas Adam wasn't related to humans at all. Rei's birth was succesful because she was being made into a human. And Adam's failed because he is the progenitor of the angels (which is also probably why Kaworu is classified as an angel and Rei isn't).
Anyways that's just my guess.

Your guess is spot-on- what causes an Impact is almost certainly the mixing of Adamic and Lilithic life- or, from another angle, the mixing of the two Fruits:

1st Impact: Lilith & Adam meet. Almost certainly Adam tried to unify with Lilith by force (which is why Rei gets flashbacks of Kaworu while Naoko strangles her in Death), and she stopped him with the Lance.
2nd Impact: Lilin inject Lilin DNA into Adam (giving him the Fruit of Knowledge, and impregnating her with the other Angels?).
Near-3rd Impact (Armisael encounter): Armisael, Adam's daughter, tries to consume Lilith's soul (Rei) and Lilith's clone-body (Eva-01).
3rd Impact: a) Lilith joins with Adam, while b) the MP-Evas (Fruit of Life) harmonize with Yui (Fruit of Knowledge) and later Lilith, while c) all the while Yui has already gotten the Fruit of Life from Zeruel and is now activating it.

So yes, Lilin messing with Lilith and creating Rei and Eva-01 had no chance of causing Third Impact, since we're both of the same nature.

It's truly frustrating how Eva unclearly uses "Angel" to mean two distinct classes of things- either the 18 entities on the list of Angels, or Adam with his Children, who have the Fruit of Life.
Since Lilith and Lilin are on the Angel List, and Rei and the Evas aren't (even though Rei is just like Kaworu, and the Evas are artificial angels) I think an "Angel" in the list sense is defined simply by being an unavoidable, prophecied entity- whereas Rei and the Evas were made out of free will and weren't prophecied.

Forgot to mention that people working under Dr Katsuragi (at the lab in Antarctica) probably didn't realise Kaworu was an angel until right before their death. Misato obviously wouldn't have known because she was young and confused when her father put her in the capsule, so she thats why she was suprised when she found out Kaworu was an angel. My guess as to what Kaworu was doing prior to becoming a pilot is that SEELE found him and later gave him to Gendo, but were unaware that he was an angel. Idk tho

Kaworu was created during Second Impact, so there was no time for anyone to need to not realize he was an Angel.
Seele meanwhile are quite aware that Kaworu is an Angel, seeing that they tell him that he's Adam's incarnation right to his face. They seem to expect that he'll go after Gendou and the Adam embryo as part of their plan, and have a hissy fit when he goes for Terminal Dogma instead.

I agree that Rei was probably created in deliberate emulation of Kaworu.
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