Giji Shinka wrote:In isolation this type of scene sounds fine, but where would this conversation lead to development wise? Would it still lead to the scene where she points her gun at Shinji?

That would let Shinji directly confront the grudge some of the survivors of 3I have toward him (instead of keeping it to passive-aggressive silences, briefings and isolation), so that we won't need to have a shocking scene out of nowhere of Toji's little sister trying to shoot him with a reasoning out of a yandere manga. (her motives were literally to injure him badly enough so he won't be able to pilot without killing him)

I have to see the movie first before I make my mind about that scene, but I like the idea of the scene since it seems to pararell Toji punching Shinji in 1.0 for piloting the Eva and hurting his sister (In Sakura's case it's Shinji piloting an Eva and killing her dad).
It also seems to showcase how Misato is now willing to take a bullet for him and share Shinji's burden whereas in 1.0 when Toji punched Shinji she wasn't too concerned about him.

I've come across a clip of part of the ending.

a) The untanging scene is gorgeous! Let's appreciate that one person who untangs while still holding their pet cat

b) Yui looks actually pretty glad to see Gendo. I do like that they gave her this little bit of 'patheticness'.
Gendo hugs her from behind not her & Shinji, Shinji is already floating to the surface at this point (so no family hug actually)
It seems that Shinji understood enough about their plan(s) to forgive them at this point, his face is very emotional like "Oh, THAT was it!" but it's not necessarily clearer to ME/ us behind the screen.

One of the strengths of eVA was always the micro expressions...

c) The Yui farewell scene indeed looks a lot like the EoE one, Shinji floating towards a surface, juxtaposed with the weird CG GNR falling apart, the poses/ cutsare very similar to EoE. Interestingly tho Yui appears in her divesuit here. Though wether that is because it's the last thing she remembers wearing, or Shinji making the connection to the pics Fuyutsuki showed him on the projector, I can't say.

d) You indeed see "past"/ no longer active EVAS getting speared but in this same "space" background not their past locations

f) I'm not sure if the footsteps are actually the beach where Shinji is but rather where Shinji's plug landed & all three pilots left their footsteps, now with green poking through - But you do see scenes of the "old world" AFTER the EVAS got speared - The WILLE escape pods landing near the village, Asuka's entry plug... so in my opinion NOT a reset. Pen-Pens descendants actually waddle towards the escape pods, aww.

Alas the clip was missing the actual transition to the epilogue itself tho so still not sure.

By itself the shot of Shinji at the beach looks like he's already back, if Mari showed up right then & her EVA disintegrated that's how I'd take it but apparently there's this black & white psychedelic thing in the middle suggesting Shinji is actually still in minus space at this point until she comes & gets him.
Aaaargh. I feel this will be clear when I've seen the full thing.

Oh, so you were finally able to watch it. Pretty gorgeous, right (visually and, sonically and emotionally)? From one beach scene to the other. It's definitely one of the most beautiful moments of Evangelion. Keep in mind that we are only getting half of the experience. Imagine watching the entire movie and then being greeted by this sequence. It's probably insane.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find it since March. I should have downloaded it when I could hahaha!
By the way, in the second beach scene, there is a nice reference to EoE's poster, don't you think?


As for the "reset", it's definitely up in the air. As I said before, it seems to me that this scene is all about symbolism and metalanguage. It uses imagery to convey ideas and concepts that goes beyond what's literal. We see Unit 13's entry plug near Kensuke's house. Of course, this was used to convey Asuka's personal growth and endgame. However, if the world is being "rebuild", it shouldn't be there, right? Well, who knows? I have the impression that Shinji is not creating a new reality. Instead, he is "fixing" what's already there (by eliminating the Evangelions). Regardless, it's an important character beat.

BernardoCairo wrote:However, if the world is being "rebuild", it shouldn't be there, right? Well, who knows? I have the impression that Shinji is not creating a new reality. Instead, he is "fixing" what's already there (by eliminating the Evangelions).

This. He's explicitly saying that he won't (or can't - it seems to mirror Fuyutsuki's words from the chess scene) revert time or the world...

Besides it would seem like total bullshit to attach so much significance to the life lived at the village, Kensuke talking about how it wasn't all bad etc. only for that to be erased.

Not to mention that Mari repeatedly describes what she's doing as "coming to get/ picking up" Shinji, so he's not stranded in negative space.

Even in the epilogue proper Shinji & Mari actually talk like they haven't seen each other in a while. "Ah, you smell as nice as ever but you've clearly gotten sassier"
Shinji always had his sassy moments when he was comfortable but otherwise he'd have that 'masked' by his tendency to give bland noncomittal uncomfrontational socially acceptable answers. So probably he outgrew that & now he claps back all the time. (So it's perhaps fortunate that Misato didn't live to see this 'cause she would be so mad if she couldn't get a rise out of him anymore * single tear *)

The sequence is certainly doing double duty as some real-life symbolism but in-universe it probably takes place some years after the great untanging.

Kendrix wrote:This. He's explicitly saying that he won't (or can't - it seems to mirror Fuyutsuki's words from the chess scene) revert time or the world...

To be fair, Shinji mentioned that he would rewrite the World. That's why it is confusing.


A translation (by Reichu) of the dialogue:

Shinji: I'm choosing a way of life where I don't pilot Evas, too. I won't turn back time or revert the world. I'll just rewrite it to a world where Evas don't need to exist. To a world where new people can live.

Rei: A new creation of the world. The neon genesis.

Konja7 wrote:To be fair, Shinji mentioned that he would rewrite the World. That's why it is confusing.

I interpreted that "rewrite the world" as changing the world how it is right now, without erasing its history and past events. Those changes include reconstruction of everything that was lost in the impacts like all the human beings and the cities.

Raikyu wrote:I interpreted that "rewrite the world" as changing the world how it is right now, without erasing its history and past events. Those changes include reconstruction of everything that was lost in the impacts like all the human beings and the cities.

Yeah. I understand it that way too.

I just wanted to mention why it could be confusing.

What do you think of the idea that Asuka is stuck between fiction/reality and childhood/maturity, which is why she's still in a ripped plugsuit - which simbolyzes her pride as a pilot and attachment to the Eva, she's wearing but also partly breaking free of it? And, why she's not apparently waiting for the train going the other way - thus not leaving behind Shinji possessed by Anno?

I find it interesting that Ogata is seemingly attached to the idea of Shinji meeting her and others again (though she mentions her and Yui specifically). I have to wonder if Asuka (at least in the Eva world, unclear if the "new" one has her memories) will always have him in her heart but she'll just need to live with it.

For better or worse Shinji simply "splitting" his existence between the two worlds would feel like a cheap cop-out too. I understand Shinji gave his goodbyes to her, Rei and Kaworu believing he'd die soon afterwards, but his sacrifice was averted by Gendo and Yui. It's not unlike Asuka herself expressing her feelings, (correctly) anticipating she might die in her last mission and wouldn't get another chance.

What it Anno himself feels that way, to some degree? Even if he wants to escape the "curse of Eva", he just can't keep away. He wanted to hand the movie over to Tsurumaki and he couldn't stay away. I have to wonder if that'll stay that way in the future Eva iterations, whatever they are.

The specifics of the recreated world are very vague, personally from what I've understood and what I think that would be the most fitting thematically, Shinji probably "merged" the two worlds: it's a world in the state it would be if the Evas, Angels and SEELE never existed, but where everyone kept their memories of the old world but also have the memories of their "alternate selves" that lived in this new world. (hence why you see Asuka using a smartphone even though those don't exist in the old world)
And that's probably the same thing for those who died and became FoIs during Third Impact, or else it would had been hard for the handful of survivors to be the only ones with memories of a world that doesn't exist anymore.

I have the impression that we are dealing with a similar "reset" to the one seen in Sadamoto's manga. What do I mean by that? Well, this is the same planet as before. However, things are changed. Shinji eliminated the Evangelions and their repercussions. He "created" a world in which Asuka and everyone else can live a "normal" life. It's so similar that we even see people "raining" from the sky in order to reborn. The only difference is that, in the manga, it's suggested that millions of years have passed between the Third Impact and the reappearance of Shinji and Asuka. This is not what's happening in Shin. In the movie it's heavily implied that Shinji, Yui and Gendo reworked the world and people started to inhabit it right after.
There is another important question to be asked. Did everyone keep their memories of the old world? That's impossible to tell. We can't really say to which extent Shinji rewrote the world. That said, I can speculate. Honestly, both options are plausible. Many characters have matured during the story. It's hard for me to believe that the writers would want to throw it all out the window and "reboot" everyone's life. Besides that, we clearly saw Unit 13's entry plug close to Kensuke's house. That was placed there to convey Asuka's personal growth and give her character closure. It's impossible to believe that their entire friendship, for example, would simply disappear. What do I mean by all of this? In my opinion, even if they have new memories, remnants of the old world are still in their minds.

Kendrix wrote:Even in the epilogue proper Shinji & Mari actually talk like they haven't seen each other in a while. "Ah, you smell as nice as ever but you've clearly gotten sassier"

Ah, the oldest question in the book! Was there a timeskip or not? Honestly, I keep fluctuating between the two possibilities. Before I read Nuke-senpai's description of the segment, I was sure that some time had passed between the second beach scene and the train station sequence. I mean, that's why Shinji and Mari were so comfortable around each other, right? Furthermore, after leaving the blue sea, they were still in teenage bodies and wearing their old clothes. So some time must have passed, don't you think? I don't know. His take on that scene made a lot of sense, to be honest. We also have to take the DSS Choker into account. I actually made an entire post about this (https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20778/Clarifications-upon-second-viewing/80/#p920281).

FelipeFritschF wrote:What do you think of the idea that Asuka is stuck between fiction/reality and childhood/maturity, which is why she's still in a ripped plugsuit - which simbolyzes her pride as a pilot and attachment to the Eva, she's wearing but also partly breaking free of it?

It's interesting. That said, I have a different view on it. I actually was talking about this in another thread.

BernardoCairo wrote:My guess is that they chose to portray Asuka with a torn plugsuit not only to convey her adulthood, but also to emphasize how she no longer "fits" in her original role. That, of course, plays with the age gap between her and Shinji. They liked each other, but are no longer in "sync". Asuka grew up first and they are moving on.
A small detail that I loved is how they chose to portray Asuka with her old plugsuit. It's not only a goodbye between Shinji and Asuka, but these characters and the audience.

Kendrix wrote:I've come across a clip of part of the ending.

a) The untanging scene is gorgeous! Let's appreciate that one person who untangs while still holding their pet cat

I love that scene so much. Especially with the music and Shinji saying “Goodbye, all of Evangelion”. It honestly makes me a little emotional every time I see it.

BernardoCairo wrote: His take on that scene made a lot of sense, to be honest. We also have to take the DSS Choker into account. I actually made an entire post about this (https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20778/Clarifications-upon-second-viewing/80/#p920281).

The DSS choker in the epilogue tho is what made that finale scene as a meta.
If it is a world without eva then it shouldn't have exist. So they both (mari & Shinji) are becomes a meta being roaming around in the real world perhaps, but those across (kaworu Rei Asuka etc) are humans. We'll never know

FelipeFritschF wrote:I find it interesting that Ogata is seemingly attached to the idea of Shinji meeting her and others again (though she mentions her and Yui specifically).

Now that they got some of the communication hangups out of the way & Shinji made an effort to even the playing field, the situation for Shinji to reconnect & stay BFF long-term is actually better than it's ever been with each of the three, they'd all be in a better, more balanced place.

Though I would have assumed that if there's one person who is definitely, non-negotiably 100% toast & not coming back, that would be Yui. (and Gendo) Otherwise why'd she take the spear for Shinji if there was never any negative consequence from him doing it?

I've read the interview with Ogata, but she doesn't say anything about Shinji meeting Asuka and Yui again.

However, I also remember an interview that says that. Maybe it is Miyamura(?).

Kendrix wrote:Though I would have assumed that if there's one person who is definitely, non-negotiably 100% toast & not coming back, that would be Yui. (and Gendo) Otherwise why'd she take the spear for Shinji if there was never any negative consequence from him doing it?

I agree. That scene seems a pretty definitive ending for Yui (and Gendo).

I increasingly hope that at the end, Shin is a film that just deliberately ends up tossing away all shackles of "inner realism" and presents itself fully as a fictional work meant to communicate themes and its supposed delve into the realm of abstraction is just it foregoing traditional forms of narrative in favor of a completely metaphorical approach and that nothing at the end is meant to be discussed in terms of its narrative implications, but only in its metaphorical, allegorical, symbolic, thematic ones.

what if the whole evangelion community tagged evangelion on twitter and then tweeted that they all want an international release. if the whole community does that then surely the official evangelion twitter page will see it?

Konja7 wrote:However, I also remember an interview that says that. Maybe it is Miyamura(?).

Yeah I don't think it was the pamphlet one but one of the subsequent radio ones, but there's one where she says that when she saw the epilogue she felt a desire to go talk to 20something Shinji - (though she missed Asuka on her first viewing).

For all we know they just had a meetup and are all going home now, except for mari whom Shinji still owes an icecream.

Like the metaphorical meaning is pretty clear we see everyone grown up & free (the first time we see Rei & kaworu in normal street clothes ever) - they even do like a kind of fakeout like panning away to show birds etc. making us think they'll be gone but nope, you can still see em behind the window, they're freed for reals.

I wouldn't say that they're so much about to take a train to somewhere else, as that they've just gotten off of one & reached their destination - just like the earlier scene where Gendo gets off a train when Shinji is done talking him down, & Shinji gradually convinced each of them one by one to leave instrumentality. The train is instrumentality, or EVA piloting, or "hell" as in all the prior train sequences.

Removing the DSS choker would represent letting go of his self-blame and/or having completed his atonement, he'd done his due - Mari's symbolically welcoming him into the circle of grownups. Who else is gonna do it? Gendo & Yui went poof & possibly Misato too - her return is implied but outright showing her so soon would downplay her sacrifice too much.

Just like in EoE Asuka's the first to show up there cause she represents "conflict". They come into conflict again, but he doesn't crack her neck, accepting it's inevitability. In that sense the epilogue is a reiteration/summary/coda of the larger plot (that extends to everyone & interaction in general, not just Asuka - she's just the most archetypical standin)

It's exactly the same here:
Mari is among other things consistently a standing for change & support (she's giving Shinji & Asuka and even ReiQ advice & stuff), & her giving Shinji his big boy card (which is why it needed to be one of the experienced older human characters; It couldn't be Rei who's still as young as Shinji, or Kaworu who only just became mortal.) & running off into the sunset with him is a reiteration/summary/confirmation of the overall plot: A story where Shinji came to freedom & maturity because he received support. And that was not just Mari, but also like Touji, Kensuke, Hikari Rei...even Asuka & Misato in their own way. etc. but Mari's the shorthand standing.


I feel like we shouldn't understate that Shinji was fully ready to die so those three who had been treated as worthless disposable tools all their lives could live in freedom like that's so touching.
He tells Rei that "Mari will get him" to put her at ease but he doesn't really believe it, he's surprised when Yui intercedes.

All in all it's only right that Gendo & Yui cleaned this up tho, they got him into it, they started this mess.
I don't believe the shit they pulled can truly be 'atoned' for but allowing him a seat at the negotiation table & like hearing his actual wishes instead of manipulating him "for his own good" like he's still the toddler they remember is probably the closest they're capable of coming, especially Gendo, flawed and corrupt and limited as he might be.

Like I keep thinking back to the OG descent arc and yeah there were a lot of selfish motives in play, too, but he was also upset that he couldn't help the others more.Imma just agree with Touji's assessment from ep 17 that while it's hidden under a whole lot of complexessomewhere deep down Shinji is a nice compassionate dude, when he has the time to stop & think. He's just veeery bad at thinking under pressure.
The difference here is that he had a good bit of decompression time...

At the start he was like "This is so unfair why should I be the human sacrifice /Forsaken Child powering Omelas, fuck all of you" & everyone no matter how benevolent was intent on making him do it.
& here he does it but ppl mount a big rescue mission to get him out, you know, Mari and Yui & Misato all actually doing what's supposed to be the responsible adult's part. That's touching too.

bogusman wrote:The DSS choker in the epilogue tho is what made that finale scene as a meta.

Yeah, I totally agree! Honestly, there seems to be a lot more to this ending than what's "literal". Instead of explaining everything that's happening, it uses imagery to communicate its themes and to close its characters. This is very interesting and I'm more than excited! I can't wait to watch the movie and draw my own conclusions about it!

BernardoCairo wrote:It seems to me that this scene is all about symbolism and metalanguage. It uses imagery to convey ideas and concepts that goes beyond what's literal. The same thing goes to Shinji and Asuka's farewell. That beach meant nothing to these "new characters". That said, the audience has an emotional attachment to it. That's why it was a perfect fit for the occasion.
The DSS Choker is directly related to the hell that these characters have been living. After leaving the blue sea, Shinji and Mari are still in teenage bodies and wearing their old clothes. So, it makes sense for them to be using their chokers. In the next scene, Mari is portrayed as someone who will guide Shinji to a new world. That's why she's the one who takes his collar off. In this context, it also makes sense for her not to be wearing it.

BernardoCairo#920281 wrote:It seems to me that this scene is all about symbolism and metalanguage. It uses imagery to convey ideas and concepts that goes beyond what's literal. The same thing goes to Shinji and Asuka's farewell. That beach meant nothing to these "new characters". That said, the audience has an emotional attachment to it. That's why it was a perfect fit for the occasion.

The beach scene is just using EoE as a reference to bring closure to the original series as well, but the scene is still mainly about Shikinami and Rebuild Shinji, not Soryu and NGE Shinji.