People are reaching for Madoka explanations because the same kanji was used in Kaworu's speech as in the "Law of Cycles" there, rather than katakana for "loop".

Mr. Tines wrote:People are reaching for Madoka explanations because the same kanji was used in Kaworu's speech as in the "Law of Cycles" there, rather than katakana for "loop".

That was the general understanding of what it means. I'm using the Madoka example because it's recognizable.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:

Xiel#920400 wrote:Aside from the things mentioned above and all the vague winks and implications in previous movies, is that Kaworu calls Instrumentality the "origin of the Cycle."

I don't see that line anywhere in the subs pulled from the app. Do you remember when any mention is made to this?

After Shinji's and Gendo's reconciliation, when Kaworu takes his place on the train and asks Shinji's wish (before Asuka's Instrumentality scene). Kaworu gets a random vague loredump to confuse the audience.

So I don't know if there's a consensus on if Kaworu's loops are restricted to the NTE universe or if he jumps from one universe to another (NGE, NTE, ANIMA...), but if it's restricted to NTE, then I hope that one day Khara expands on his loops and take the opportunity to expand on the events during the timeskip, even if they don't happen exactly the same way as in the "last" loop.

One medium that would lend itself pretty well would be a videogame: like the NGE 2 videogame for PS2 greatly expanded the NGE lore (pretty much explaining it actually, everything we know about the FAR, the White and Black Moon... comes from here), they could release a videogame that expands the lore through Kaworu's various loops.

There's even a precedent of a company using this format to explore the offscreen time loops of an anime: the Madoka PMMM Portable game was made with heavy involvement with the creators, and the different branches the story can take (it's part dungeon crawler, part visual novel) are all canon among the loops Homura did (except one joke route that's explicitly non-canon and another where she dies, which is non-canon for obvious reasons).

If such a thing happens, what I would really be curious to see is the first loop, Shinji and Kaworu's first meeting that started the latter's quest for his happiness. Maybe that was after a 14 years time skip like in Q, maybe the first time he reached and slayed Zeruel before Shinji awoke EVA-01 (I think there's a pachinko scene that depict this) and they met during his stint as NERV's new commander? The possibilities are infinite!

That's an interesting question about Kaworu's universe-jumping. Come to think of it, we've all been operating under the assumption for a long time that the PS2 game's information is all relevant to the series. What if it's actually a similar case to NTE, where the world is mostly the same but not actually the world of the show? Hell, what if all the information about the black moon, white moon, the FAR, is only relevant to the game, and otherwise shouldn't be treated as canon? After all, it's called Neon Genesis Evangelion 2, and the people who made it are on record saying they wanted to make their own world of Evangelion.

In the words of OMF:

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:The big problem with this was that the CI was so delicious, so digestable, and so apparently in harmony with everything seen in the show that we all ended up swallowing it anyway and now find ourselves completely unable to analyse without concepts like FAR, or the Lance as a security device at our disposal.

The existence of parallel Evangelion worlds wasn't something we had evidence for 10 years ago, but now we do, and it provides us with an interesting lens through which to reexamine the veracity of the CI in all contexts.

Hah, grabbing this additional evidence surrounding NGE2 was a big project of mine. I'm still looking for more, if possible. I mentioned on the wiki some of this "own world of Evangelion" stuff and claims by the developers to not take "Scenario 17, Pen Pen gets a toy robot dog" seriously. I remember some stuff regarding it being explained at length in "weekly Famitsu November 14 issue (released October 31)". Not sure of the year, but Newtype USA January 2004 mentions some stuff so that's probably 2003 Famitsu?

And yes, it is an interesting question. We know the CI was made only with consultation with Anno et al, by the developers, we ended up using for the lore stuff because it was extremely convenient. As far as I can tell, the FAR etc are never mentioned in Chronicle or any of the other usual supplemental material. I remember in his source anthology gwern mentioned something about the FAR lore being thought of at first, then excised from the show, then slowly reintroduced, but even that might operate under too many assumptions. I personally never cared much for it, because it's inconsequential to the story proper, at the end of the day.

There are other reasons you can argue for or against it, though, and it's clear the film doesn't want only one option to be valid.

I don't think the presence of shut and open coffins (locked in a circle) can indicate anything but the cycle happening in a succession of circular time in the same place. If it were parallel worlds, all the coffins would be open or closed, because those happen simultaneously. I interpreted it as NGE and EoE happened before NTE, but how is unknown, as the explanation we have is just vague "Just Instrumentality things" However! I didn't think is strictly NGE or EoE we know with the same lore, but perhaps a new unseen overhaul lore modification, in other words I mean it could be NGE and EOE "cycles" backstory to NTE. That the same sort of characters and events happened but aren't the tv show or movie precisely. That way NTE gives the final wrap up to Evangelion as franchise as an indirect sequel that concludes the arcs that began in NGE without necessarily retconning NGE, if it makes sense.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:That's an interesting question about Kaworu's universe-jumping. Come to think of it, we've all been operating under the assumption for a long time that the PS2 game's information is all relevant to the series. What if it's actually a similar case to NTE, where the world is mostly the same but not actually the world of the show? Hell, what if all the information about the black moon, white moon, the FAR, is only relevant to the game, and otherwise shouldn't be treated as canon? After all, it's called Neon Genesis Evangelion 2, and the people who made it are on record saying they wanted to make their own world of Evangelion.

That was my impression: that NTE is an indirect sequel (it means to complete and finish Evangelion tale, but not necessarily as a direct sequel, other than Kaworu, Shinji, and maybe Gendo being the same cyclic souls because is their "story" -- Shinji's story). Speaking about Evangelion 2, I've read a few meta of fans now commenting over twitter that they were surprised with how much set up for NTE final outcome and answer. I'm not talking about the lore (the lore is something Anno changes on a whim. Let's not forget "Lilith" was "Adam" until a last-minute change in the tv show and the Proposal; Anno isn't committing to be consistent with it). Shinji's ideal outcome would result in saving the three pilots (instead of failing at it), leaving Eva behind, Kaworu's characterization (in his personal Maze of the Heart), Rei's ideal ending which isn't rejoin Lilith but actually reaffirm herself as Rei, were all things presented in that game and NTE takes them. So I wonder if Anno during the talk to the video game company did more than just give lore tips and also provided suggestions about those points he later expanded himself in his new movies.

Xiel wrote:I don't think the presence of shut and open coffins (locked in a circle) can indicate anything but the cycle happening in a succession of circular time in the same place. If it were parallel worlds, all the coffins would be open or closed, because those happen simultaneously.

I'm a massive time travel fanboy, and I personally disagree with this interpretation. I think things can absolutely be happening simultaneously at different times, if we're willing to invoke a five-dimensional view of four-dimensional space.

The simple version of this: humans exist in three-dimensional space. We can't see it, but we're moving through the fourth dimension, which is time. Somebody existing in a fourth-dimensional space would be able to perceive other times that they weren't in, the same way we can perceive other spaces in 3D space we don't inhabit. However, someone existing in 4D space would have to move through other times to get to those spaces, the same way we have to get up and go to the store if we aren't there yet.

A five-dimensional being could see, perceive, and exist in all four-dimensional spaces-- that is to say, all of time. That's the perspective we need to conceptualize to understand how some of the coffins can be open and some can be closed. All worlds with all possible amounts of coffins open are happening at the same time, in parallel. To any one Kaworu existing in four-dimensional space, he can know of other times where more or fewer coffins are open, but he can't see them without actually going to those times, and neither can we.

But if we think about how all events are happening at the same time in all worlds, each Kaworu is aware of what has happened in other "cycles" as the one he finds himself in unfolds.

This is all explained using my own framework for this, and I won't hold anyone else to it, but I think it provides a level of consistency to parallel universes and cycles, and consistency is something we sorely need when understanding Evangelion! Until proven otherwise, both of our interpretations are just that: interpretations, and open to acceptance and criticism alike until more information comes along.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:This is all explained using my own framework for this, and I won't hold anyone else to it, but I think it provides a level of consistency to parallel universes and cycles, and consistency is something we sorely need when understanding Evangelion! Until proven otherwise, both of our interpretations are just that: interpretations, and open to acceptance and criticism alike until more information comes along.

I think that could be if the coffins weren't located in the moon, in real-time (and we know the Moon gets affected by the Impacts too), instead of the Minus Universe. The disposition of the coffins as a circle also hints of the circular cycle in the same place. It's not just Kaworu either, Shinji as well, and maybe Gendo. I thought it's something like Manga (but the manga got rid of the Evas). Wherein a cycle happened, a catalytic end of the world, then, after millions of years, the world was reborn with that data (Kaworu hints something like this at the end of Q, that even if souls disappear, wishes and curses remain in the world, and that world takes that data and transforms the self). Kaworu remains dormant until Shinji "awakes." Kaworu awakening seems tied to Shinji entering to the story.

(Anyway, this is all a metaphor about the fans wanting the same story and not moving on for 25 years. so I don't expect any actual clarification from Khara. ).

Xiel wrote:If it were parallel worlds, all the coffins would be open or closed, because those happen simultaneously.

Why? To be be parallel worlds, not just the same one, there must be differences - and once that's acknowledged any difference is possible.

I wont reply to everyone who disrespect me but It was pretty clear that evangelion was a loop... and everyone here saying there was not a proof about that

I hope you learned the lesson

Why is being right about this so important?

If all you're interested in doing is winning the argument maybe you should stop using DISCUSSION forums and go and yell memes at people on /a/

Jayfive wrote:Why is being right about this so important?

If all you're interested in doing is winning the argument maybe you should stop using DISCUSSION forums and go and yell memes at people on /a/

Sometimes it's just nice to be proven right when some people have been rather condescendingly dismissing your points as 'old and hashed out' at the nicest end of things and 'stupid and wrong' at the not so nice end of things in the DISCUSSION forums you speak of.

(just to be clear, this is not provocation, merely explanation.)

Sorry but people saying "we heard you the first time, bring something new" is not the problem here.

Also even is he was 100% vindicated (which he's not by any means) the gloating isn't welcome. Like I said, save it for 4chan.

As far as I can tell, whatever loop is occurring seems unique to Kaworu, and I don’t even know how all that’s supposed to work. But seeing as how it doesn’t effect Shinji, Gendo, Fuyutsuki, Rei, Asuka, Yui, Rei, Ritsuko, Misato, the Bridge Bunnies, the school teacher, Rei, any of the Evangelion Units, Adam, Lilith, Rei, FAR, or Rei, It’s kind of the weakest aspect of the franchise upon which to fixate.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:As far as I can tell, whatever loop is occurring seems unique to Kaworu, and I don’t even know how all that’s supposed to work. But seeing as how it doesn’t effect Shinji, Gendo, Fuyutsuki, Rei, Asuka, Yui, Rei, Ritsuko, Misato, the Bridge Bunnies, the school teacher, Rei, any of the Evangelion Units, Adam, Lilith, Rei, FAR, or Rei, It’s kind of the weakest aspect of the franchise upon which to fixate.

In Kaworu's Instrumentality, Shinji mentioned that he remembers other times he met Kaworu. So, it seems Shinji is trapped to the loop too.

Shinji's name is wroten in the book of life too.


I understand you don't like the loop theory, but I wouldn't say it is the weakest aspect of the franchise upon which to fixate.

Konja7 wrote:Shinji's name is wroten in the book of life too.

Do we even know what that actually means at this stage?

Jayfive wrote:Do we even know what that actually means at this stage?

According to Kaworu, that is the reason why they meet every time. It seems to be implied that's the reason why they are trapped in the loop.

Loopers are changing their tune just to say "we were right" but you're not fooling us. You may have correctly considered the Nietszchean eternal recurrence implications while adjusting it based on newer developments, but that will never erase the fact that your entire theory stems from that collage from /a/ more than 10 years ago along the idea that Rebuild was just Retake/Once More With Feeling/some other Asushin peggy sue fanfic.

Whatever the truth is, for the last time: the scenery in Rebuild is not an "aftermath of EoE".

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:The simple version of this: humans exist in three-dimensional space. We can't see it, but we're moving through the fourth dimension, which is time. Somebody existing in a fourth-dimensional space would be able to perceive other times that they weren't in, the same way we can perceive other spaces in 3D space we don't inhabit. However, someone existing in 4D space would have to move through other times to get to those spaces, the same way we have to get up and go to the store if we aren't there yet.

A five-dimensional being could see, perceive, and exist in all four-dimensional spaces-- that is to say, all of time.

See: Flatland, where 2D creatures (points, lines, squares) can only ever perceive a sphere as a circle (its 2D cross-section), or Interstellar, where the tesseract was a 4D space navigable by a 3D human.