"Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:08 am

Interesting, Nuke. Are we think Kaworu wants Shinji to keep enacting Instrumentality so that he won't change and he can keep meeting him? I don't think it'd be that dark. So far I'm thinking the cycles are a natural feature of the universe (Gendo's lines are certainly quite cryptic), and not entirely within any character's control.

Either way, I think the problem is that EoE is by design an open-ended ending and retconning it 25 years later defeats its point. For my part most Asuka fans I've talked prefer to see Sohryu as separate precisely because they interpret Asuka as having a chance for happiness after EoE.

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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby bogusman » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:09 am

I think the whole "Ending of all evangelion" things, whether it is for marketing's sake or just Anno's expresion of relieve after being tangled by movie series plan that he restarted himself, is somewhat add insult to the injuries for those who disagree with the ending, or disagree with NTE in general.

It would be safer to let people choose which one they prefer. And let this be NTE's ending instead.
The anime series, EoE (and even the manga) are legends. Better not try to make a newer conclusion, that are not well planned, that has a risk of burning those works.
Afterall EoE has One More Final Stuff. Now this is the ending of all. Then maybe there will be The Ultimate Ending or The Last Ending of All Evangelion. :D
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:17 am

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:Interesting, Nuke. Are we think Kaworu wants Shinji to keep enacting Instrumentality so that he won't change and he can keep meeting him? I don't think it'd be that dark. So far I'm thinking the cycles are a natural feature of the universe (Gendo's lines are certainly quite cryptic), and not entirely within any character's control.

Either way, I think the problem is that EoE is by design an open-ended ending and retconning it 25 years later defeats its point. For my part most Asuka fans I've talked prefer to see Sohryu as separate precisely because they interpret Asuka as having a chance for happiness after EoE.

Quite the opposite-- I think Kaworu wants Shinji to be happy, and getting him to exist in a world where Shinji doesn't choose instrumentality is his goal. So far, that's happened in every iteration of Evangelion we've seen: EoTV results in the famous "It's okay for me to be here!" line, EoE ends with Shinji reconstituting himself in the real world, and NTE results in Shinji putting an end to Evangelion as an idea, creating a world where nobody has to think about the Evas or the Angels at all.

I'm actually happy to have Kaworu be a link between these worlds, someone so intimately tied to the fate of humanity that he can provide some measure of influence through it all. Maybe it's a bit of an odd choice to have all of these timelines running in parallel instead of getting to be their own 100% unique stories, but it's something I can respect.

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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Whitetiger739 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:43 am

I've been dealing with this topic a lot and researching it. IMO, no way ever that Soryu ever appears in NTE straight up. All the articles that claimed that the original Asuka clone is Soryu are just some fan theories that's not legit confirmed in the movie and even one of the articles admitted that they were misinformed their argument by fans interpretation rather than official made by Khara. So many times since the radio talk/stream that Miyamura already claimed too many times that Soryu and Shikinami are completely different. Even this recent interview (https://www.animatetimes.com/news/details.php?id=1617977506&p=2) already mentioned it again.

Now in terms of Shin Eva and throughout NTE, the adult-Asuka from the beach scene already mentioned the earliest moments she recalled was when she enjoys Shinji cooking back in 2.0 and that's about it. She wouldn't be blushing if she makes references to NGE/EoE beach scene since she already knows the moments with Shinji rather than confessing along with making more connections too if she already know Kyoko and Mr. Langley from NGE as the theory of the original clone is Soryu when both merged each other, but so far based on the transcript and reports from the first-hand audience there's isn't any references tie to NGE/EoE. Even though the scene looks almost exact to EoE, but I don't see Asuka with her bandage to symbolize her counterparts in EoE and Shinji was wearing his plugsuit than his school uniform. So probably Asuka in her plugsuit represents to overall personalities of her, but the beach scene from Shin Eva does not retcon Soryu and the EoE beach scene.

Here's another thing that I'm still speculating, if Asuka possessed the memories from NGE/EoE, then the loop and the ability to recall the past between Kaworu and Shinji isn't unique. There could be speculations that all characters from NTE possessed the memories from NGE/EoE, but if they do, they couldv'e know what happen and could acted differently. Shinji, Rei, and Asuka already battled Unit-3 infected from Bardiel back in NGE, Asuka in NTE couldv'e avoid testing Unit-3 if she already have the NGE memories that the Unit-3 is Bardiel. I don't think that NTE and NGE aren't entirely connected and only just a retell with meta-sense while the character personalities are different from their NGE/EoE counterparts.

Overall, this is just my speculation on Shin Eva since I haven't watch it yet and also I'm not here to be against other interpretation since I'm just stating my own opinion. I would prefer that NGE/EoE & NTE are mutually exclusive continuity with meta or some direct references even though both have the same story with different alternations. It's probably the best to resolute easily if we just keep it separate continuity only for all other characters beside Kaworu and Shinji. Who knows if EoE beach scene with Shinji and Soryu are still the only ones left in the world unalternated to this day while in the other continuity is Shin Eva world, but that's how I prefer it. It's also the best is we can think less important to keep frustrating and debating over on if Soryu ever appears in NTE.
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Xiel » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:07 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:I'll have to spend some time before I can understand that. Calling NGE Asuka as the only person who wasn't "saved" from Eva feels a bit odd. In the end of the series, Shinji's the only one who really gets a happy ending. In EoE, arguably humanity gets a happy ending where they can choose what they want, and Shinji and Asuka are both as messed up as they'll ever be (though Shinji arguably gets a crumb of resolution.)


Well, what I mean is this reasoning: because NTE is the ending of Eva (understood in general, not just this set of movie), the ideal ending is represented to live in the real world without Evangelions. In NGE and EOE, Evas still exist, thus isn't the final conclusion. Shikinami is welcomed to the real world, cleansed from her trauma, but the old Asuka isn't. Because Anno and the rest artificially separated her from Shikinami while he didn't do the same for other characters. That's why there's this running "Soryu is the Original Asuka and they fused so Asuka also ended up in the world without Evangelions." I'm not saying I agree with that stance, I'm merely explaining why is so popular.

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:If people are suggesting that NTE saves everyone except NGE Asuka, does that mean they're somehow arguing that all the characters from NGE have traveled forward into this continuum, and that any resolution or lack thereof from the series has been wiped out? I guess that's one way to look at things, but to me it feels pointless. If I did believe it, I can see how it would frustrate people that Asuka didn't get to come along for the ride, but I don't see the films as an authoritative must-watch sequel to NGE. If we want to pull from the text of the films, look at all the coffins on the moon-- this has happened before and it'll happen again, and this is just the slice of things we get to see.


One of the interpretations is that NTE is the 25 years old conclusion of Eva. They can take the NTE characters as the new cycle versions of the old NGE ones (Even with the title tacit ambiguous winking: Thrice Upon a Time). This works for every character except Shikinami because of the staff assistance to separate the Asukas. That's why there's this theory of gattai fusion Super Asuka in Eva 13. I don't agree with the theory because Soryu wasn't mentioned. I'm not sure why they don't simply take Kaworu's words at the end of Q, where he said the "self" will eventually transform, if they wanted to link them.

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:To what extent Shinji is able to access these memories is a bit of a mystery as well. Is it only during instrumentality when he can access past memories? This would make sense, also considering that he gets some sort of access to Kaworu's person during instrumentality as well.


One thing is saying he can see the meeting happening from a third-person perspective (like when Misato and Kaji had sex in EoE), but Shinji says he remembers now. At this point, like the one controlling this, I don't think Shinji is exactly a mere lilin, so memory retrieval might be only possible if you transcend the contains of the fruit of knowledge. We'll see if this is explained further in CRC (probably not :tongue: ).

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:But all of this feels to me like it addresses Evangelion across a far broader spectrum than just the TV series we know and this new set of films. Looking at NTE as the official end to all Evangelion will ever be, erasing the narratives of the characters in every other telling of the story, feels awfully depressing. Looking at NGE Asuka as "left behind" and NTE Asuka "getting saved" while ignoring all the other differences everyone else experiences in each iteration of Evangelion's story feels reductive.


If it's a spiritual sequel (not a direct sequel), I don't think it erases anything, but rather finishes what was built up thematically earlier and leading it to its final conclusion and lesson. That's also why I didn't see the point of the Original-Is-Soryu theory.

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:Interesting, Nuke. Are we think Kaworu wants Shinji to keep enacting Instrumentality so that he won't change and he can keep meeting him? I don't think it'd be that dark. So far I'm thinking the cycles are a natural feature of the universe (Gendo's lines are certainly quite cryptic), and not entirely within any character's control.


Instrumentality is the origin of the "cycle" whatever that means. This falls either on Shinji's hand and, rarely, Gendo's. A lot of this is connected and subtly hinted with ambiguous words and double meanings so we can't be sure how it works. I thought this happened anyway when Instrumentality enacts but a lot is related to the person's maturity and wishes. That person just happens to be Shinji. NTE does emphasize how stagnant he is (IMO, a meta-commentary about how Eva repeats itself and loops to the same unhappy roles) like the time Kaworu points out he likes the stars because they don't change and how frightened he is of everything changing in Q (3.0 heavily deals with this). In 3.0, Kaworu insists that to live well, people must change, and that he needs to try new things to live happily, or in the end, when he says that people can change (the self can transform). Asuka also comments he's still the same brat, but her remark is also lace to her personal bitterness and only connected to Rebuild while Kaworu gives a twist that includes all Eva ("You never change, do you?" in 1.0).
I'm sure Kaworu found comfort in always meeting Shinji who didn't change, but at the same time, Kaworu wants him to change. He seemed very sad in 3.0 when he refused to accept change and change, that's why he resigned himself to wear the choker. While happy when Shinji was showing him he finally changed in Shin Eva. Kaworu tells Shinji a lot of things, in NGE and NTE, but Shinji never actually listened to his advice (his advice in NGE was about his hedgehog's dilemma; and in NTE, was about his stagnant nature). In Shin Eva, on the other hand, he finally does understand what he means. Instead of the usual "I don't understand what are you talking about!", we get "You were right, Kaworu-kun" when he hallucinated him (?) beside him after his chat with Mari and Asuka in the Wunder.
Last edited by Xiel on Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:17 am

It's definitely sad to think about Shinji and Rei as being characters able to step back and view things from a broader perspective while Asuka is limited to the continuum in which she finds herself. But if anything, that just makes Asuka all the more compelling to me: she has to go through everything anew each time, and still manages to emerge on the other end. She doesn't need an ultimate happy end to be valid, and maybe that she doesn't get one just makes her character all that much richer.

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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Xiel » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:40 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:It's definitely sad to think about Shinji and Rei as being characters able to step back and view things from a broader perspective while Asuka is limited to the continuum in which she finds herself. But if anything, that just makes Asuka all the more compelling to me: she has to go through everything anew each time, and still manages to emerge on the other end. She doesn't need an ultimate happy end to be valid, and maybe that she doesn't get one just makes her character all that much richer.


I agree with you. Though a continuous development is also an interesting narrative choice if it's properly executed. With all the ambiguity and vagueness, I can't say for sure if it was.
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Asugran233 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:44 am

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:Hmmmm

I mean you could work a back story where Kyoko is successful in getting Asuka to kill herself alongside her and then some scientist with the last name of Shikinami uses the corpse's DNA to make a clone.

But Shikinami adult and otherwise doesn't look exactly like Soryu and it would be weird for her to be off model.

But shit that's just harsh. Like jesus, what if like they were rebooted after EoE but they were making the relationship work? Having it function then Shinji just disappears one day for 14 years.



My colleague came up with such theories that after defeating Bardiel in 2.0 NERV wanted to revive Asuke because they did not want to come to terms with the death of the pilot, and Asuka in 3.0 is one of the clones seen in the series.

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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Blockio » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:12 pm

View Original PostAsugran233 wrote:My colleague came up with such theories that after defeating Bardiel in 2.0 NERV wanted to revive Asuke because they did not want to come to terms with the death of the pilot, and Asuka in 3.0 is one of the clones seen in the series.

Considering that Nerv's stance on that issue otherwise is "We have backups for everything, including pilots" I'd say that can be soundly ruled out
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Xiel » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:37 pm

I think Shikinami is the last clone of her batch. At least that seems to be implied in her Instrumentality scene. That the others are dead.

My pet theory is that Shikinami series was created for Kaworu, Eva 13 pilot, like the Ayanami series was created as complementary for Shinji, Eva 01 pilot. To facilitate the Impacts expected to be carried out by those units according to the plans/script/Dead Sea Scrolls. In the case of Eva 01, it is the Third Impact that affects the land; and for Eva 13, the Fourth Impact that affects the soul. We know Asuka's and Rei's purpose was to awaken the Evas for the Impacts that Gendo and/or SEELE sought, so it may be programmed into them. Like Rei is made of Yui DNI to make her close to Shinji, perhaps Asuka was chosen to merge with an angel in 2.0, as an attempt to be close to Kaworu, the First Angel, when he finally arrives. They miscalculated Kaworu would not actually pilot willingly with anyone but Shinji, though. Bardiel was used as a sacrifice in the end, but it those years of exposure and fusion would provide Asuka better sync with Kaworu (or his soulless remains in this case) as another pseudo union of the fruit of life/knowledge as the dual pilots of Eva 13 under Gendo's control.

This is just speculation, don't take it seriously. We never quite get a confirmation of the difference between Ayanami and Shikinami, but I like the symmetry Rei Ayanami was fated into Eva 01 while Asuka was made for Eva 13.
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby BernardoCairo » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:59 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:It's definitely sad to think about Shinji and Rei as being characters able to step back and view things from a broader perspective while Asuka is limited to the continuum in which she finds herself. But if anything, that just makes Asuka all the more compelling to me: she has to go through everything anew each time, and still manages to emerge on the other end.

That's a good observation. Asuka is as "human" as a character can be. Like us, she is bounded by the reality that surrounds her and has no control over most of what is happening. That's fine, though. What matters is our ability to do the best with what we have. Despite all the hurdles, Asuka always ends up in a better place than she started.

As for the "multiple universes shenanigans", I have the impression that Kaworu is "jumping" between unrelated realities. In other words, there are no "loopings" going on. Instead, there exists a number of parallel worlds that are equally real, but not necessarily intertwined. Kaworu, being an angel, can travel through this omniverse while retaining his memories (that’s why death isn't much of a problem for him). I'm not sure how much knowledge Shinji and Ayanami have about all of this, though.
To put it into words, Shikinami is Shikinami and Soryu is Soryu. The two exist, but in separate realities. In fact, there must be a crazy amount of Shinjis and Asukas out there. Anyway, that's just speculation, of course.
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Raikyu » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:12 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:In fact, there must be a crazy amount of Shinjis and Asukas out there. Anyway, that's just speculation, of course.


Shinjis and Asukas are like Ricks and Mortys. There are tons of them in the entire multiverse

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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:26 pm

View Original PostXiel wrote:I think Shikinami is the last clone of her batch. At least that seems to be implied in her Instrumentality scene. That the others are dead.


Didn't they make the clones kill each other off hunger games style and then the last one standing became the pilot of Unit 02?
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:33 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:
View Original PostXiel#920463 wrote:I think Shikinami is the last clone of her batch. At least that seems to be implied in her Instrumentality scene. That the others are dead.


Didn't they make the clones kill each other off hunger games style and then the last one standing became the pilot of Unit 02?

I think that’s what they did.

But to honest, I haven’t seen the film yet, there’s no way I’d be able to fly to Japan with where I’m at right now, so all I got where some spoilers. Until it comes out in the U.S. I think the answers should be clear.

When I looked up Asuka’s Wiki page and found out she was a clone the whole time, I was rather shocked. They managed to make her backstory in NTE just as tragic as her NGE counterpart, if not more so: being artificially created instead of being born a human like Rei, being forced to kill all of her sisters for survival, being bred only to pilot the EVA, having no birth parents or family to begin with, being used as a tool for Gendo’s endgame and nothing else, being reduced to something less than human after being infected by an angel(part of Gendo’s twisted scenario, no doubt), and the thought that she’s just a copy instead of being her own individual. That’s an existential crisis to a new level, and one can’t help but pity her, just as I do more so now than I thought I would. Those NERV bastards really screwed her life over, just as much as they did to Soryu. And also imagining that Asuka isn’t really Asuka at all, but a copy(though I think that’s what Anno decided to go for when working on Rebuild).

This whole thing is just...damn. I don’t know what else to say. But yeah, I pity her even more than I thought I could. Surely, she deserves a life better than this.
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby bogusman » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:58 pm

SPOILER: Show
View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:
View Original PostChaddyManPrime#920471 wrote:
Didn't they make the clones kill each other off hunger games style and then the last one standing became the pilot of Unit 02?

I think that’s what they did.

But to honest, I haven’t seen the film yet, there’s no way I’d be able to fly to Japan with where I’m at right now, so all I got where some spoilers. Until it comes out in the U.S. I think the answers should be clear.

When I looked up Asuka’s Wiki page and found out she was a clone the whole time, I was rather shocked. They managed to make her backstory in NTE just as tragic as her NGE counterpart, if not more so: being artificially created instead of being born a human like Rei, being forced to kill all of her sisters for survival, being bred only to pilot the EVA, having no birth parents or family to begin with, being used as a tool for Gendo’s endgame and nothing else, being reduced to something less than human after being infected by an angel(part of Gendo’s twisted scenario, no doubt), and the thought that she’s just a copy instead of being her own individual. That’s an existential crisis to a new level, and one can’t help but pity her, just as I do more so now than I thought I would. Those NERV bastards really screwed her life over, just as much as they did to Soryu. And also imagining that Asuka isn’t really Asuka at all, but a copy(though I think that’s what Anno decided to go for when working on Rebuild).

This whole thing is just...damn. I don’t know what else to say. But yeah, I pity her even more than I thought I could. Surely, she deserves a life better than this.

With all if that sort of ordeal i think she deserve a much better closure. This one is abrupt & rushed.
Tbh on the last scene in the instrumentality she doesn't seems happy or relieve at all. Even in the epilogue she's hardly spotted.
Poor thing

So it's not an all happy ending after all.

However i still prefer Soryu's past rather than Shikinami's. This one's i think feels too complex as they're making it up to make it worse.
Yea...

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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Derantor » Mon May 03, 2021 2:53 pm

There's another slight twist here. Not only was she reduced to "less than human" from the perspective of the Angel infecting her and freezing her in the body of a fourteen year old - even before that, her true Eva-like nature was reduced to human level to begin with, her emotions tempered with to set her on a path she has to follow. That's the curse of the Eva all pilots suffer from, separate from her predicament with the Angel.

And that's just the broad-strokes stuff, there are so many more nasty little details implied. Like: Asuka transfuses "all the Angel Blood" - but what is Angel blood? Where does it come from? Well, herself, of course; no other Angel around Wille could use. I'll leave it up to your imagination how they managed to drain enough out of her to fill those tanks on the back of Unit 02. She doesn't eat, only drinks water. She can't sleep, either. She only pretends to do so. She's running around with a sealing hex pillar in her eye - going by that leaked clip, not an enjoyable experience. Her flashback reveals that she was aware of the battle royale she took part in, too - and of course NERV placed all the Shikinamis in tanks in such a way that they could see each other. Well. A few less of each other every day. Because if you fail the training, it's off to the butcher. Given how NERV handled its other clone series, with Fuyutsuki seeing nothing wrong with presenting the severed heads of a lot of Rei clones, stumps still bloody, to Shinji, I doubt that process was very ... lets say, dignified.
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon May 03, 2021 3:47 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:She doesn't eat, only drinks water. She can't sleep, either. She only pretends to do so.

Where is it said that she doesn't sleep anymore?
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby Derantor » Mon May 03, 2021 3:55 pm

That might only be a one-time thing, but it doesn't feel like it. It's during the village part, when Shinji is still mostly catatonic. She wonders how long it will be until she can sleep (implying it has been some time since she found (good) rest, or any rest at all).
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Re: "Original" Shikinami clone, or Sohryu

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon May 03, 2021 6:37 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:She doesn't eat, only drinks water. She can't sleep, either. She only pretends to do so. She's running around with a sealing hex pillar in her eye - going by that leaked clip, not an enjoyable experience. Her flashback reveals that she was aware of the battle royale she took part in, too - and of course NERV placed all the Shikinamis in tanks in such a way that they could see each other. Well. A few less of each other every day. Because if you fail the training, it's off to the butcher. Given how NERV handled its other clone series, with Fuyutsuki seeing nothing wrong with presenting the severed heads of a lot of Rei clones, stumps still bloody, to Shinji, I doubt that process was very ... lets say, dignified.

Geez, what kind of life are those NERV people putting her through!? NGE Asuka had it bad enough. But with Shikinami? That just takes the cake, forcing her to go through that kind of hell. She’s the same as Rei there. Just because she’s NERV property, they think they can treat her like just some object? That’s just horrendous there. She deserves better than this.
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