Shin Eva General: Reborn

Konja7 · Postby **Konja7** » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:40 pm

pwhodges wrote:If the choker really is a punishment, what is Asuka being punished for?

The choker seems to exist to mantain control over the pilots.

The use of the choker likely started due to Shinji's actions in 2.0.

So, I think Ritsuko consider the choker as a punishment for Shinji's actions.

EscapismIsBad · Postby **EscapismIsBad** » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:17 pm

What's with Yui brain? Is it a plot point? Does it appear in the movie?

Gendo's Glasses · Postby **Gendo's Glasses** » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:12 pm

swagbuckking1 wrote:
Konja7#920089 wrote:"Shinji. This is going to sound confusing but you have been in a coma for 14 years. We do not have much time to explain things to you because we are in a war against your father and are under constant attack. We can't let you pilot Unit 1 because we need it as an engine. Also something really bad happened the last time you piloted Unit 1 but we will explain this to you when we have the time. That thing around your neck is a device to make sure you are not an angel. When we know for certain that it's really you Shinji, we will take it off and you will stay with me where I can keep and eye on you. Afterwards when it is safe, we're going to take you to Touji and Kensuke. They're going to keep you safe OK? I know you are confused but you just need to trust me. Now go with Sakura, I will speak to you later."

That would have taken less the 5 minutes and would have prevented Shinji from running away when Rei Q came knocking.

Are you serious?

"Shinji. This is going to sound confusing but you have been in a coma for 14 years (What're you talking about, Misato? Fourteen years?! But I was just in the Eva!"). We do not have much time to explain things to you because we are in a war against your father and are under constant attack ("But my father is in command of NERV - what's going on?!"). We can't let you pilot Unit 1 because we need it as an engine ("But it's my Eva!"). Also something really bad happened the last time you piloted Unit 1 but we will explain this to you when we have the time ("Nothing bad happened, Misato, I saved Rei!"). That thing around your neck is a device to make sure you are not an angel. When we know for certain that it's really you Shinji, we will take it off and you will stay with me where I can keep and eye on you. Afterwards when it is safe, we're going to take you to Touji and Kensuke. They're going to keep you safe OK? I know you are confused but you just need to trust me. Now go with Sakura, I will speak to you later."

Not even going into:

1. Telling him they'll take it off once they know he isn't an Angel is a lie.
2. Taking him to be taken care of by people who last saw him fourteen years ago would be extremely weird and alienating.

ChaddyManPrime · Postby **ChaddyManPrime** » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:59 pm

pwhodges wrote:
Konja7#920155 wrote:Honestly, I think Ritsuko really think the bomb is a "punishment" for Shinji.

If the choker really is a punishment, what is Asuka being punished for?

existing

swagbuckking1 · Postby **swagbuckking1** » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:31 am

Gendo's Glasses wrote:
Are you serious?

"Shinji. This is going to sound confusing but you have been in a coma for 14 years (What're you talking about, Misato? Fourteen years?! But I was just in the Eva!"). We do not have much time to explain things to you because we are in a war against your father and are under constant attack ("But my father is in command of NERV - what's going on?!"). We can't let you pilot Unit 1 because we need it as an engine ("But it's my Eva!"). Also something really bad happened the last time you piloted Unit 1 but we will explain this to you when we have the time ("Nothing bad happened, Misato, I saved Rei!"). That thing around your neck is a device to make sure you are not an angel. When we know for certain that it's really you Shinji, we will take it off and you will stay with me where I can keep and eye on you. Afterwards when it is safe, we're going to take you to Touji and Kensuke. They're going to keep you safe OK? I know you are confused but you just need to trust me. Now go with Sakura, I will speak to you later."

You are correct in stating that Shinji will not immediately accept the things that he has been told in the scenario I created because anybody would find these things hard to believe. However what I intended to do was create a script where Misato communicates with Shinji in such a way where he does not feel threatened by Misato, Ritsuko and the rest of the WILLE crew to the point where he immediately escapes with Rei Q. Even in my scenario, he may still leave however he now has much less reason to do so, namely because there is greater emphasis on Misato's desire to:
A: Keep him safe.
B: Explain things later when it is less hectic.

Keeping these things in mind, it wouldn't be logical or likely for Shinji to run away at the first chance when he only wants things properly explained to him and he is told to expect that Misato will explain things when she has the chance.

gendo's glasses920182 wrote:Not even going into:

1. Telling him they'll take it off once they know he isn't an Angel is a lie.

In my fan-fictional scenario it wouldn't be a lie because they actually do intend to take it off. After all in my scenario, the WILLE crew are of the mindset "why place it on him if we don't intend to let him pilot". This is excluding placing it on him because of resentments from certain WILLE members. I wrote this dialogue because I wanted to tell what I think would be the optimum, hypothetical way WILLE could keep Shinji from leaving. I wasn't trying to re-tell the story in a more realistic way.

gendo's glasses920182 wrote:2. Taking him to be taken care of by people who last saw him fourteen years ago would be extremely weird and alienating.

Alienating for whom? Shinji or Touji and co. Because as you pointed out, Shinji was not aware of the 14 year timeskip and believes the events in 2.0 happened only days ago. If that is the case then hearing familiar names such as Touji and Kensuke should provide reassurance to Shinji that WILLE aren't hostile and this will make him less likely to leave. If you are suggesting that Touji and Kensuke will find seeing Shinji after 14 years alienating then this, as proved by the spoilers from Shin, just will not be the case. We have learned that Touji, Hikari and Kensuke are actually warm and kind to Shinji and help him recover psychologically after Kaworu's traumatizing death. Kensuke even takes him fishing and explains more about the state of the world after Third Impact. I simply do not think Touji and Kensuke would find seeing Shinji again after 14 years to be wierd. After all they are aware of the Curse of the Eva because Kensuke spends time with Asuka and knows of her condition. Seeing a still teenage Shinji should be nothing they are not used to.

Edit:

Dear Mods, I am deciding to repost my posts to the "Discuss the quality of rebuilds" thread and cease posting in this one as I feel I am derailing the discussion of this general. I will mark them with spoilers (obviously). I don't know what the rules are regarding reposting but if it's a problem then feel free to delete my posts in this thread.

Postby **Zusuchan** » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:22 am

swagbuckking1 wrote:
Dear Mods, I am deciding to repost my posts to the "Discuss the quality of rebuilds" thread and cease posting in this one as I feel I am derailing the discussion of this general. I will mark them with spoilers (obviously). I don't know what the rules are regarding reposting but if it's a problem then feel free to delete my posts in this thread.

That thread is outside this designated spoiler subforum, so even marking your posts with spoilers isn't allowed, especially when it's impossible to accurately respond to any of your posts without discussing spoilers. I'll let you off lightly since you at least gave a message in this thread that you were going to do so, but you still broke forum policy so I'll have to give you a warning. I propose you make a new thread in this subforum or ask the mods to do so.

Edit: I've been corrected-you can go ahead and mark your posts with spoilers outside this subforum. I apologize. However, since your posts still largely rely on spoiler material and knowledge of Shin, it'd still be better to have this discussion in this subforum.

swagbuckking1 · Postby **swagbuckking1** » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:10 am

Zusuchan wrote:I propose you make a new thread in this subforum or ask the mods to do so.

Noted. I shall do that.

The18°angel · Postby **The18°angel** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:44 am

Hey do you think that the rebuild of Evangelion would have been better if it had been a 5 movie saga where the third movie follows the events of the trailer at the end of 2.0 and then we skip the 14 years and start with Eva 3.0

Konja7 · Postby **Konja7** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:58 am

The18°angel wrote:Hey do you think that the rebuild of Evangelion would have been better if it had been a 5 movie saga where the third movie follows the events of the trailer at the end of 2.0 and then we skip the 14 years and start with Eva 3.0

The problem is Rebuild movies are Shinji's story. So, it wouldn't be a whole movie without Shinji.

Also, 3.0 would change, since the mystery is part of the story at the beginning.

The18°angel · Postby **The18°angel** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:08 pm

Konja7 wrote:
The18°angel#920618 wrote:Hey do you think that the rebuild of Evangelion would have been better if it had been a 5 movie saga where the third movie follows the events of the trailer at the end of 2.0 and then we skip the 14 years and start with Eva 3.0

The problem is Rebuild movies are Shinji's story. So, it wouldn't be a whole movie without Shinji.

Also, 3.0 would change, since the mystery is part of the story at the beginning.

Then we need a Zack snyder version of Evangelion 3.0 + 1.0 4 hours long where they show us what happened right after unit 01 was stopped. :devil:

Or maybe the rebuilds should have been a 26-50 episode anime?

shinryujimikihiko · Postby **shinryujimikihiko** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:22 pm

The18°angel wrote:
Or maybe the rebuilds should have been a 26-50 episode anime?

That's always been my opinion: the movie format simply does not allow the depth of the TV series. I would have liked longer episodes as well, the 50 or so minute length of a "one hour" TV episode in the Us (minus commercial time) might have been interesting.

ElMariachi · Postby **ElMariachi** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:41 pm

The18°angel wrote:
Konja7#920621 wrote:
The problem is Rebuild movies are Shinji's story. So, it wouldn't be a whole movie without Shinji.

Also, 3.0 would change, since the mystery is part of the story at the beginning.

Then we need a Zack snyder version of Evangelion 3.0 + 1.0 4 hours long where they show us what happened right after unit 01 was stopped.

Or maybe the rebuilds should have been a 26-50 episode anime?

As said by Konja7 above, Q can only work by keeping the timeskip a surprise, or else all of its emotional impact vanish.

Now in my personal opinion, I wouldn't had been against Rebuild being made of five movies, but not having the extra-one be about the timeskip, but to expand on the post-3I world through Shinji, like what else exists beyond Village-3 and the Wunder, maybe have the first part when they are at Village-3 be interspersed with scenes with the Wunder for some doses of action, and have the important events of the timeskip told through flash-back told by Kensuke or Asuka (maybe have it framed as a history class Shinji take in the village); and also to expand his time in the Wunder so we get to know the crew more and have the time to see Shinji interact with them, maybe find his place in it, have the first meeting between him and Mari happen earlier and see the beginning of... whatever their relationship is in the epilogue (I'm sure that conversations between him and Mari would be very interesting), his rekindling of his friendship with Asuka (the lover thing is dead as thing stands, but they can still be close), see him apologize to Sakura for not listening to her and go piloting and Eva (and hear her grievance toward him, so we don't end with her only scene of note being the infamous "Yandere Sakura" moment), same think with Midori (and come to term that some people will never completely forgive him for what he did), confront Misato about her grief and the fact she never contacted her son...

I say all of that because the cliché of the grievances being resolved at express speed because the final battle is about to start or the situation is desperate is something I've always found cheap, I would had really preferred for the story to take the time to have Shinji find his markings in the Wunder, gain the trust of its crew and resolve (or at least begin) the emotional luggage he had with some of them (chiefly among them Misato) so everyone can go to the final battle with a clear mind and lighter heart.

Saying all of that, I realize that I wouldn't had minded if Shin turned out to be a series (even a short of with 12 episodes) instead of a movie (even if it's very long by anime movie standards), because from what I've got to understand, the story has a good pacing while it's center in Village-3, but dramatically accelerate once Shinji get out of his despair to leave enough time for the final battle.

shinryujimikihiko wrote:That's always been my opinion: the movie format simply does not allow the depth of the TV series. I would have liked longer episodes as well, the 50 or so minute length of a "one hour" TV episode in the Us (minus commercial time) might have been interesting.

Personally I think that the movie format can work for the first three movies: 1.0 and 2.0 because we already know the story (even if 2.0 is crammed, we get the important elements useful for the rest of the story), 3.0's movie format actually works perfectly for the kind of story about Shinji's isolation and sense of alienation. It's Shin that I think would had really benefited from being in a series format.

DantesInferno · Postby **DantesInferno** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:25 pm

The18°angel wrote:Then we need a Zack snyder version of Evangelion 3.0 + 1.0 4 hours long where they show us what happened right after unit 01 was stopped.

Or maybe the rebuilds should have been a 26-50 episode anime?

If anything, the movie depicting A3I should be an “interquel” named Evangelion 2.0+1.0, much like 3.0 depicts “N4I” and 3.0+1.0 depicts A4I.

Axx°N N. · Postby **Axx°N N.** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:36 pm

shinryujimikihiko wrote:The movie format simply does not allow the depth of the TV series.

That's not even the long and short of it. It's true, and it's always a problem with distilled recap movie versions; but with Eva it's not JUST that, it's that it's that and then the plot shifts dramatically. The old material when it's in distillation mode gets the short shrift because of too little time, but the new material (fourteen years' worth, an entire new fleet's worth of characters, etc) is also glossed over so fast it's like a speed read of a cliff notes for something that doesn't even exist.

Nuclear Lunchbox · Postby **Nuclear Lunchbox** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:13 pm

For what it's worth, the TV series is only 624 minutes of runtime, or ten hours and twenty-four minutes. All four films come to 464 minutes, or seven hours and forty-three minutes. That leaves one-hundred sixty minutes behind, or two hours and forty minutes unclaimed by NTE. That's about six and two-thirds episodes of runtime for television, and about the length of a modern long movie.

Looking at it that way, it's hardly surprising we feel like we got less time with the characters in the films than in the series-- also when we consider where that time was lost, particularly when it comes to Shinji's time to develop connections to the supporting cast of the show. However... I certainly wouldn't mind another film explaining what went on between Ha and Q, because even with the little tidbits we get in Shin, there's so much remaining unexplored.

I dunno, I feel like there's still room for us to get another Evangelion movie that takes place during the timeskip. Just because this movie is the last act of the films doesn't mean that they can't insert another act in the middle somewhere. Perhaps there's a fifth film secretly in the early stages of development that will drop to much fanfare after the hype dies down and we're all sure that this is the end.

Or heck, maybe an OVA. Khara might want to whet its appetite for a full cour of something.

Konja7 wrote:The use of the choker likely started due to Shinji's actions in 2.0.

Also, about this: in Q, Kaworu says the DSS choker was created for him, and that he'd probably end up wearing it at some point. (Which he offers as justification for why he doesn't mind taking it off Shinji and putting it on himself.)

Konja7 · Postby **Konja7** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:31 pm

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:For what it's worth, the TV series is only 624 minutes of runtime, or ten hours and twenty-four minutes. All four films come to 464 minutes, or seven hours and forty-three minutes. That leaves one-hundred sixty minutes behind, or two hours and forty minutes unclaimed by NTE. That's about six and two-thirds episodes of runtime for television, and about the length of a modern long movie.

It isn't only the time, it is also the style of different media.

A TV series could have self-contained episodes dedicated to other characters. Instead, a movie often needs all the story to be connected.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Or heck, maybe an OVA. Khara might want to whet its appetite for a full cour of something.

I would like a group of OVAs where they told the events between Near Third Impact and Third Impact.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Also, about this: in Q, Kaworu says the DSS choker was created for him, and that he'd probably end up wearing it at some point. (Which he offers as justification for why he doesn't mind taking it off Shinji and putting it on himself.)

I had forgotten that line. Thanks for remind me that.

The DSS choker seems to exist to control EVA pilots and prevent awakening. That's why Asuka and Mari use it.

Considering Kaworu was the only pilot with an Eva after Near Third Impact (EVA 2 was pretty damaged). I think he literally means the DSS choker was created for him.

Nuclear Lunchbox · Postby **Nuclear Lunchbox** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:04 pm

I don't know about that! 2.0 gives us plenty of time with Gendo+Rei II interactions, Misato+Kaji interactions, Misato+Asuka interactions, Misato+Ritsuko interactions, Gendo+Seele interactions... Sure, it's a little different than a TV series, but remember the TV series was primarily about Shinji as well. There were episodes like 07 that focused on JA away from Shinji, and Asuka got a character focus in later episodes, but the story was always primarily about Shinji, and the movies follow that. I agree longform TV is a different storytelling structure, but I don't think that's too huge a reason why the films and the tv series feel different.

Also, Ha goes out of its way to give us a shot of Mari's neck when she's putting on the pink 05 plugsuit, so we know she wasn't wearing the choker until sometime after the events of Ha. (Just in case we wanted to theorize she was wearing it from the beginning.)

Konja7 · Postby **Konja7** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:20 pm

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:I don't know about that! 2.0 gives us plenty of time with Gendo+Rei II interactions, Misato+Kaji interactions, Misato+Asuka interactions, Misato+Ritsuko interactions, Gendo+Seele interactions... Sure, it's a little different than a TV series, but remember the TV series was primarily about Shinji as well. There were episodes like 07 that focused on JA away from Shinji, and Asuka got a character focus in later episodes, but the story was always primarily about Shinji, and the movies follow that. I agree longform TV is a different storytelling structure, but I don't think that's too huge a reason why the films and the tv series feel different.

You're right. I guess this is because Ha is the most "slice-of-life" of the Rebuild movies. That allows many of these interactions.

In Shin, there seems to be a good amount of interactions between the characters without Shinji in the part of Village 3 (which seems to be a "slice-of-life" part).

To be honest, I really like Rebuild movies. So, I don't exactly understand the problem with these feeling different from the TV series.

People say that there are many characters who don't received enough attention. However, I don't exactly see the problem with this situation (maybe because I couldn't care enough about characters I don't know much).

Postby **BernardoCairo** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:50 pm

I feel like the "problem" here does not lie in the runtime of NTE itself. It's more about the core structure of movies. A TV series can take its time to introduce and develop each character. That's because the episodes themselves are not bounded by film conventions. Although each episode has a theme and a self-contained story behind it, I feel like the original format offers more freedom for developers to experiment with the narrative. I mean, one episode complements the other and you have a plethora of them to flesh out your concepts.
Let's take episode 15, for example. There is a lot of things going on here. However, nothing feels rushed or compromised. That's because we are already familiar with Shinji, Asuka and Misato at this point. That’s why it’s so interesting to take a look at one of their days and see how their problems collide. The same can be said for EoE. This is a lengthy movie that takes advantage of it's already stablish cast of iconic characters. It doesn't need to waste time introducing who these guys are, because you already know that and care about them. That's why the scenes are so impactful.
Now let's take a look at HA. That movie tries to introduce two new pilots, while also teasing Kaworu. It expands on Shinji's friendship with Ayanami, but also brings Asuka into to the mix. We have the Bardiel sequence, the Zeruel fight, the Tunniel showdown and so on. This all happens within the span of one sitting. As viewers, we have less time to breathe between major events and that makes the world feel less "real".
Also, I feel like a movie has to be more tied up than an episode. I mean, these are shorter, have similar runtimes and work together to deliver the complete experience for the audience. Although the films talk to each other, they are not as closely intertwined as the episodes. Movies are usually more self-contained than chapters of a TV series and that can be limiting in some ways. Generally, when an episode is over, you don't have to wait long for the next one. This keeps you engaged throughout the entire experience. A film's follow-up, on the other hand, can take years to come out. It presents a totally different way of approaching not only the structure of your product, but also your audience.
In hindsight, I don't see any of the formats as being objectively "better". That said, the TV series seems to offer more narrative freedom to its developers. Anyway, I believe that Evangelion made a good transition from a show to a series of movies. That's probably because the team behind it already knew the ins and outs of filmmaking. I mean, these are the guys behind The End of Evangelion. That said, I feel like HA could have been two movies instead of one.

Nuclear Lunchbox · Postby **Nuclear Lunchbox** » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:57 pm

I definitely don't disagree with this. Watching NTE after having seen Shin, I think the films' pacing lends itself to a more frenetic viewing experience without the slow build the long-form nature of TV affords the show. I certainly don't think the films are rushed or too fast, but comparing the introduction and development times of characters in the show to the introduction and development of these same characters in the films, the TV series definitely gets to wade into the swimming pool. The movies are forced to cannonball in off the high-dive.

I think watching NGE does a lot of heavy lifting when it comes to how we perceive these characters and their interactions with one another. There's a lot of stuff that's meta, of course, but I also think the increased time we got with them in the series means that if we're coming fresh off a watching of the television broadcast, our minds fill in the blanks we don't see in the movies. "Ah yes, during the time between Jo and Ha, Shinji became friends with Toji and Kensuke! And of course Asuka feels this way about Shinji and piloting the Eva, we saw it in the TV series! It must have just happened off-screen!"

Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Re: Shin Eva General: Reborn

Who is online