Clarifications upon second viewing

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

Moderators: Rebuild/OT Moderators, Board Staff

Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion.
Lavinius
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 2175
Joined: Apr 13, 2012

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Lavinius » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:15 pm

I'd think it's just phrasing the same basic thing in a different way.
~ibi cubávit Lamia, et invénit sibi reiquiem~

Raikyu
Tunniel
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 191
Joined: Dec 07, 2020
Location: Portugal
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Raikyu » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:23 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:I'd think it's just phrasing the same basic thing in a different way.


Yeah, maybe you're right. I guess I was trying to build a complex headcanon around Asuka's background.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 10623
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: Nippon
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:24 pm

My interpretation of the line is that she's focusing on the aspect of her birth, or in this case the lack thereof. I think it's meant to show us Asuka doesn't feel she had a mother she grew inside, a mother who gave birth to her and nursed her, she feels terribly aware of the fact that she was grown.

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:25 pm

View Original PostRaikyu wrote:I don't know if this was discussed already, but does this mean that there is a father? She could have just said that she doesn't have both parents, but instead implied that only the mother does not exist, while there is a father but she does not know his identity. Maybe I'm focusing in an irrelevant detail, but I think that there is a hint about her origins in that sentence. That "father" could be a genetic donor, but it would make more sense to be a "mother" then.

If there is a "father", there should be a "mother" too.

It is more likely just a way to express that she doesn't have any of these two.


View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:My interpretation of the line is that she's focusing on the aspect of her birth, or in this case the lack thereof. I think it's meant to show us Asuka doesn't feel she had a mother she grew inside, a mother who gave birth to her and nursed her, she feels terribly aware of the fact that she was grown.

This is a pretty good point.

Asuka's biological father would be the biological father of the "original Asuka" and Asuka's biological mother would be the biological mother of the "original Asuka".

However, this woman didn't give birth her, which could be considered another aspect of maternity.
Last edited by Konja7 on Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

C.T.1290
Zeruel
Zeruel
Age: 33
Posts: 837
Joined: Apr 22, 2017
Location: U.S.A.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:34 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:My interpretation of the line is that she's focusing on the aspect of her birth, or in this case the lack thereof. I think it's meant to show us Asuka doesn't feel she had a mother she grew inside, a mother who gave birth to her and nursed her, she feels terribly aware of the fact that she was grown.

Man, all this...this must have been sad for her, not having a mother to begin with. Someone really put her through sad existence, NERV has ways of screwing her over.

All this time, I thought she was human. Now that I know what she really is, this sort of changes things for me. And now know how she can be so lonely. This raises my sympathy for her than I thought I ever would have.

I’m still wrapping my head over this whole ordeal. That’s just crazy, and heart wrenching at the same time.
“This is the way”-The Mandalorian

Raikyu
Tunniel
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 191
Joined: Dec 07, 2020
Location: Portugal
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Raikyu » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:37 pm

Well, your interpretations definitely make more sense than mine. So it's more like from a philosophical or psychological point of view than a biological one.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 10623
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: Nippon
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:58 pm

The specific language in Japanese is:

Code: Select all

パパは知らない。ママはいない。

The first verb is the negative form of 知る "to know", with regard to knowledge that is obtainable. (Its more common counterpart is the word 分かる, which is more commonly translated as "to understand", usable like 知る in cases where the knowledge may not be expected to be obtainable.) The second verb is いる, which has a lot of homophones, but in this particular case is likely the verb 居る, "to exist/be" as it refers to people.

Japanese isn't shy about repetitions in spoken or written language, so if Asuka were meant to say or think the same thing about both parents, I don't she'd have been shy about saying so. Maybe this is getting a bit too meta with regard to the language, but that's how I understand what was being said. I think by expressing different sentiment about both parents, it isn't just Asuka saying the same thing different ways, it's actually expressing different sentiment.

Raikyu
Tunniel
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 191
Joined: Dec 07, 2020
Location: Portugal
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Raikyu » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:14 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:The first verb is the negative form of 知る "to know", with regard to knowledge that is obtainable. (Its more common counterpart is the word 分かる, which is more commonly translated as "to understand", usable like 知る in cases where the knowledge may not be expected to be obtainable.) The second verb is いる, which has a lot of homophones, but in this particular case is likely the verb 居る, "to exist/be" as it refers to people.

Japanese isn't shy about repetitions in spoken or written language, so if Asuka were meant to say or think the same thing about both parents, I don't she'd have been shy about saying so. Maybe this is getting a bit too meta with regard to the language, but that's how I understand what was being said. I think by expressing different sentiment about both parents, it isn't just Asuka saying the same thing different ways, it's actually expressing different sentiment.

Interesting.Thank you for bringing this information, because as we know from previous Evangelion works, understanding the original meaning in the Japanese dialogues is crucial to understand the series. Some aspects are lost in translation due to the language barrier.

I'm not a Japanese speaker but I was able to notice that Japanese isn't shy about repetitions, and one famous example of that is when Rei II repeats 3 times "Poka Poka" during the elevator scene in Ha. Fun fact, the Japanese fan community does not call her Rei II, unlike us, but Rei Poka Poka due to that scene.

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6697
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:50 pm

To me the talk about not knowing her father suggests that she did not know the clone thing at the time of that flashback, cause it sounds like she expects him to be somewhere.

She evidently knew that she beat competitors while Shinji and Rei did not, but she is dressed like a normal child, she comes in with boxes' worth of stuff etc.
She also mentions not having any caretakers in her conversation with Misato.

I find it probably that she found out during the timeskip, about the time that the sweater-wearing timeskip Rei suddenly appeared maybe, and that's when she also got the info that she and Rei were "programmed to have certain responses" (something she shows no sign of knowing earlier)

I presume that it must have shaken her badly when she was already dealing with having been disfigured, partially angelized and presumably begun to be treated as dangerous after NTI.

It's fully possible that she's seeing it all from a more general perspective during instrumentality - all certainly have new insights in their sequences.
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like

EscapismIsBad
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 258
Joined: Dec 06, 2020
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby EscapismIsBad » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:47 pm

The Japanese are saying a school uniform Kaworu (maybe not, maybe it's indeed the zombie Kaworu) appears close to Original Shikinami type groin inside Unit 13 entry plug, is it true?
can't wait to get this camrip yet
Would be nice if you could describe more of the scene of which Asuka dies


What's with Yui brain? Is it a plot point? Does it appear?
Last edited by EscapismIsBad on Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
*petrifies and is left floating adrift in space, where it will outlast Evangelion: Thrice Upon a Time 3.0+1.0, as an eternal testament that the human race existed*

Bye bye all of Evangelion and Evageeks.
When you feel sad remember that it's always epic Spinosaurus aegyptiacus time, you were born in the same planet as S. aegyptiacus, how cool is it?
I never understood why people hate the Rebuild because it's different and love the Series, can we just love it all without creating dilemmas and unnecessary discussions?
SPOILER: Show
Be careful of 3.0+1.0 spoilers

This is truly the end of this account, forever.

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:00 pm

View Original PostEscapismIsBad wrote:The Japanese are saying a school uniform Kaworu (maybe not, maybe it's indeed the zombie Kaworu) appears close to Original Shikinami type groin inside Unit 13 entry plug, is it true?
can't wait to get this camrip yet
Would be nice if you could describe more of the scene of which Asuka dies

If he appears, it should be a blink-and-miss scene, since people didn't notice it before Yamashita's twitter.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 10623
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: Nippon
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:32 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:To me the talk about not knowing her father suggests that she did not know the clone thing at the time of that flashback, cause it sounds like she expects him to be somewhere.

She evidently knew that she beat competitors while Shinji and Rei did not, but she is dressed like a normal child, she comes in with boxes' worth of stuff etc.
She also mentions not having any caretakers in her conversation with Misato.

It's certainly possible Shin shows the audience images of Asuka's past and reveals to us that she's a clone with Asuka not knowing it at the time. I don't like this interpretation, though. If we assume Asuka doesn't know she's a clone, then all the images we get of her childhood are just her being sad and depressed because... child soldier, I guess. Which is still sad, of course, but I feel like it takes some of the weighty human oomph out of her situation.

And when we think about Nerv as an organization, wouldn't it make sense for Asuka to know she's a clone? What reason would they have to keep it from her? If a Shikinami can't handle the knowledge that it's a clone, what happens if it finds out at an inopportune time? It makes more sense to me to tell the clones they're clones, let them know that every time they take a test, it could be the difference between them waking up the next day or not.

The way the Asuka instrumentality sequence opens is with her having a 'wake-up' moment inside a tube of LCL. In one of the very next shots, we see a wall filled with headshots of Asuka clones, at least ten columns and seven rows, so at least seventy Asukas that Euro-Nerv was working on. We could assume none of the clones know they're clones, but then we have a story about loads of identical child soldiers fighting one another without knowing that's what they're doing. Still in line with the kind of drama we'd expect from Evangelion, but I prefer the narrative where Asuka does know.

Re: the specific language of not knowing her father, I think you could know full well you're a clone and wonder at your parentage, at whose genes created you. I don't think her being aware she has someone who could be called a 'father' precludes her knowing that she's a clone. I suppose it's possible that she didn't know, that she was told she was abandoned by her parents, in which case we can read 居ない as "dead" and get the reading, "I don't know who my father is, and my mother died." So within the language of the scene and the narrative we've been presented of Asuka, it could make sense. I don't like it as much, but it could make sense.

During Asuka's flashbacks, we see multiple shots of Asuka in different places-- walking down a hallway, in an Evangelion cockpit, in a gymnasium. There are two cockpit shots and they look remarkably similar, when I think about it-- when I watch the film again, I'll have to see if I can identify any of these shots as being of different Asukas. That would sure be an interesting detail to hide.

View Original PostEscapismIsBad wrote:The Japanese are saying a school uniform Kaworu (maybe not, maybe it's indeed the zombie Kaworu) appears close to Original Shikinami type groin inside Unit 13 entry plug, is it true?
can't wait to get this camrip yet
Would be nice if you could describe more of the scene of which Asuka dies

I couldn't see it in any of the shots, but that doesn't mean he isn't there. This feels like the sort of thing we'll look for in the BD release when we can freeze-frame.

Asuka doesn't die in this film, but I'll assume you're referring to the scene where her choker activates but the original Shikinami type drags her out of the entry plug. It's quite dramatic: Asuka pulls down the neck of her plugsuit to reveal the activated collar, the Shikinami type says, "You're so silly, aren't you," embraces Asuka, and they both slip out down through the entry plug as the collar detonates. (Asuka's eye seems to regenerate after this point, though I'm not sure what this is supposed to symbolize.)

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6697
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:33 pm

I'd conclude that maybe the DSS choker or the sealing pillar patch suppressed possible angel powers including regeneration. She has to take it off to use her ATF after all
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 7872
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:25 pm

I have a couple more questions for those who have seen the movie :
  • Does Mari too wear a DSS Choker?
  • How does Asuka, Shinji and Rei Q reach Village 3: do they walk until reaching it, or are they picked up and brought there? I ask because if we assume that the train station (which is Ube's main train station) in the epilogue is in Village 3 and that it's indeed in Ube, that makes a 850km trip on foot, this is "Camino de Santiago" levels of trekking here!
  • Does Village 3 has any defensive or cloaking system to protect it, or are we to assume that SEELE and neo-NERV didn't attacked one of WILLE's food supplier and manpower reserve in 14 years situated in the same country as their HQ for reasons?
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:40 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:[*] Does Village 3 has any defensive or cloaking system to protect it, or are we to assume that SEELE and neo-NERV didn't attacked one of WILLE's food supplier and manpower reserve in 14 years situated in the same country as their HQ for reasons?[/list]


Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised that SEELE and Neo-NERV doesn't attack Village 3 or other food supplier.

SEELE and NEO-NERV don't likely care about WILLE's actions. After all, they have big plans to destroy and "evolve" all humanity.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 66
Posts: 21373
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:56 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:How does Asuka, Shinji and Rei Q reach Village 3: do they walk until reaching it, or are they picked up and brought there?
As to how long a journey, I've seen an identification of the location of village 3 as somewhere near Nagoya, presumably made by some train otaku.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics &c.|MAL|𝕏|🐸|🦣
Avatar: art deco Asuka

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 10623
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: Nippon
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:39 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I have a couple more questions for those who have seen the movie :
  • Does Mari too wear a DSS Choker?
  • How does Asuka, Shinji and Rei Q reach Village 3: do they walk until reaching it, or are they picked up and brought there? I ask because if we assume that the train station (which is Ube's main train station) in the epilogue is in Village 3 and that it's indeed in Ube, that makes a 850km trip on foot, this is "Camino de Santiago" levels of trekking here!
  • Does Village 3 has any defensive or cloaking system to protect it, or are we to assume that SEELE and neo-NERV didn't attacked one of WILLE's food supplier and manpower reserve in 14 years situated in the same country as their HQ for reasons?

As demonstrated when Asuka pulls down the neck of her plugsuit to reveal the DSS choker to Shikinami Original, the DSS choker can be pretty well hidden just by wearing a standard Evangelion plugsuit over it. Unfortunately for us, Mari is wearing a plugsuit for pretty much the entire film, and the only time we see her naked in a full-body shot, her neck is hidden by her hair. If she is in fact wearing a DSS choker, there isn't any imagery to back this up. Notably, Shinji is still wearing his DSS choker through the voyager sequence, even at the end when he's on the beach in his regular clothes. Mari appears in that scene wearing the same schoolgirl uniform she was wearing in Ha, and we don't see her wearing a choker. It could follow from that scene that she isn't wearing a choker earlier either, but that would require us to assume that her collar appears in metaphysical space the same way it does in reality, or that she's capable of removing her own collar. (We only ever see two people remove a DSS choker: Kaworu in Q and Mari in Shin, and they're both taking them off Shinji, though in Mari's case she just twirls it around her finger instead of putting it on herself. I was half expecting her to put it in the pocket of her jacket.)

Asuka, Shinji, and Q are taken to Village 3 by Kensuke, who arrives in a car to pick them up when the battery in Shinji's suit starts dying. They walked some distance from the site of the crash at the end of Q, enough to get out of the red desert and into a more urban area, but Kensuke takes them the rest of the way. The best I can do is that it's nighttime when Kensuke picks them up, and Shinji wakes up in Village 3 in the early morning all tucked into bed in Toji's clinic. Problem is, I don't know if they were walking for multiple days, or just one day. They could be anywhere. (I think it's a stretch to assume that Ube station must be the Village 3 station, but it's an interesting idea.)

Village 3 is protected by an Anti-L system like the one that gets activated in Paris. When 4I starts and waves of FOI start sweeping over the land, they run up against a kind of protective wall generated by the system. Kensuke also remarks earlier in the film that some of the FOIs that are staggering about aren't able to get through it, so they're clearly functional against angelic material. Against a physical assault, I don't know-- it never happens. We still don't know exactly what happened in those 14 years, so for all we know, there's a very good reason nobody wanted to attack Village 3-- maybe there was a time when Nerv wouldn't have wanted to provoke Wille, or waste resources on a village of only several hundred people. The latter feels more accurate. If you know your enemy has a soft spot that they'll waste lots of time on providing food and other resources at pretty much no benefit to themselves, why would you stop them from doing it?

BernardoCairo
Full/Super Moderator
Full/Super Moderator
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 1204
Joined: Dec 27, 2020
Location: Brazil
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:14 pm

Image
Mari does wear a DSS Choker. It's just hard to see.
This image can be found at her promotional reel.
Just sit here and waste your precious time. When you want to do something, don't do it right away. Don't do it when you can. Read my posts instead. It's the only way to live a life without regrets.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 10623
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: Nippon
Gender: Male

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:17 pm

HAH there it is! I must've just barely missed it during the beach scene in the Voyager sequence. I must have been more focused on her face than her neck, since I went to go see the film in theaters twice and didn't see that! Nice eagle-eyed catch there.

Though that makes me wonder, where did it get to in the ending scene? Was she wearing a necklace/collar I forgot about?

And editing my post to add another note, we see Mari drinking a lot of tea in Q. Not that drinking something is or isn't indicative of one's humanity, of course-- but Asuka doesn't eat or drink anything in Q or Shin, as far as I can remember. Maybe it's just a quirk of Mari wanting to drink tea even though she doesn't actually have to consume anything. (Still fuzzy on what the "curse of Eva" actually implies, but I'm sure we'll fanwank something in due time.) The reason I mention it is because it makes me think more about what the point of the DSS choker is and who has to wear one and why.

Editing again, Mari's wearing her glasses from Ha in the Voyager sequence, not her classes from Q. The Ha glasses are full-rim but the Q glasses are bottom-rim, and she keeps those same glasses in Shin. Significant or not? Who knows!

C.T.1290
Zeruel
Zeruel
Age: 33
Posts: 837
Joined: Apr 22, 2017
Location: U.S.A.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Clarifications upon second viewing

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:01 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:-- but Asuka doesn't eat or drink anything in Q or Shin, as far as I can remember.

Does this mean that this Asuka isn’t human? Or not even human to begin with?
“This is the way”-The Mandalorian


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests