Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Apropos of this whole "we have the dialogue, we know what happens" discussion, the village section of the film has a long sequence that's entirely music and visuals. No dialogue, no nothing. There are other moments in the film as well that rely heavily upon the visuals and the score to draw you in and make you a part of the scene in that moment.

You're not going to get any of that from the scant materials available now.

Of course, visuals and sounds could convey emotions that you don't feel on paper. I noticed this in a fragment of Rei Q's death in the movie.

My point is that people who dislike the concept of the ending and feel it ruins the entire tetralogy won't change their opinion, because they feel it goes against what Evangelion represent. So, there is no point in telling them to wait to see the movie.



PS: One question, is there some flashback to the Near Third Impact affecting the world in the movie?

There are some brief, low-context scenes of Misato saying goodbye to Kaji as he goes off to stop 3I actual. Other than that, not much (though Kaworu does appear in a Commander's uniform and there are some lines from him that allude to some 3I happenings.)

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:There are some brief, low-context scenes of Misato saying goodbye to Kaji as he goes off to stop 3I actual. Other than that, not much (though Kaworu does appear in a Commander's uniform and there are some lines from him that allude to some 3I happenings.)

So from what I understand, Shinji's N3I didn't destroyed the world, but severely fucked over Tokyo-3 (which is when Midori's parents and Sakura and Toji's father died), then the "proper" 3I (probably the one that SEELE initially wanted to make) happens and is stopped by the nascent WILLE and Kaji's sacrifice.

So (and correct me if I'm wrong) Midori and Sakura's reaction in Q come from their loss, and Misato's coldness comes from her perception that Shinji's N3I was the first domino that led to 3I (and Kaji's death) and that she couldn't accept that she too had a part of responsibility for pushing him to pilot, which colored the rest of the crew's impression toward Shinji. I'm correct?

The difference between N3I and 3I actual is a bit fuzzy to me, I'm not sure who died when or where. However, Misato's VA said in her interview that she played Misato in Q as if everything that happened had been Shinji's fault, and nobody corrected her on this!

ElMariachi wrote:So from what I understand, Shinji's N3I didn't destroyed the world, but severely fucked over Tokyo-3 (which is when Midori's parents and Sakura and Toji's father died), then the "proper" 3I (probably the one that SEELE initially wanted to make) happens and is stopped by the nascent WILLE and Kaji's sacrifice.

The thing is there are some phrases that imply the Near Third Impact was the worst event humanity faced.

Kensuke: At that time, I didn't think the old man, who survived the Near Third Impact, would die like that in an accident.

Touji: We survived even the Near Third Impact. Have trust in our own luck and in Misato's Wille.



My current theory is that only one Lance wasn't enough to totally stop the Third Impact in 2.0, so the (Near) Third Impact still had terrible consequences for the land.

Lillith is the centre of the Third Impact between 2.0 and 3.0. We see she has been stabbed by two lances in 3.0.

Eva-13 was stabbed by two lances as part of the process two stop the Fourth Impact in 3.0

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:The difference between N3I and 3I actual is a bit fuzzy to me, I'm not sure who died when or where. However, Misato's VA said in her interview that she played Misato in Q as if everything that happened had been Shinji's fault, and nobody corrected her on this!

Again, this is my interpretation, but here's how I see it:

• N3I: triggered by Shinji with the 10th Angel at the end of Ha, is stopped by Kaworu before it had the time to go to the tanging part, but it still completely leveled the Geofront and seriously fucked over the Hakone region :
  SPOILER: Show

  
  
  
  Slashing a giant cross-shaped crevasse around the region was bound to make massive collateral damages, there are probably a few civilian bunkers that were caught in it and busted, that's probably how Midori's parents and Suzuhara Sr bite it
• 3I: happened some time later, since it involved the 12th Angel (press F for the forever unknown 11th Angel) and there Mark.06 had the time to be converted to an autonomous model. Since Fourth Impact in Q was explicitly stated to be the continuation of 3I and that Fuyu said at the end of the movie that SEELE almost won, my bet is that this 3I was the one planned all along by SEELE. Here it's WILLE's intervention that stopped it from happening in extremis, since they probably didn't had much material aside conventional weaponry and maybe one Eva (if 02 was repaired), ultimately leading to Kaji's sacrifice to pierce Lilith with the spear, but most of the damage has already be done, and the world ravaged beyond recognition (no idea if it was turned to core in one go or if it gradually spread from the epicenter). EVA-01 might had played a role in this clusterfuck, since the FOIs are in its image and it being sent in space was probably because there weren't any more spears to keep it dormant once Kaji took it off to stop Lilith.

As for Misato, I have the feeling that the VA played Misato in Q as if everything was Shinji's fault because A. I don't think that the VA knew the details of what happened back during the voicing of Q (I doubt that Anno told him anything, assuming that he himself was decided about it!) and B. because it goes well with Misato's feeling that it was Shinji's fault, probably because for her, if he didn't triggered N3I, ravaging Tokyo-3 and immobilizing EVA-01, WILLE would had a better shot at stopping 3I and Kaji's sacrifice wouldn't had been necessary. IIRC, in their reconciliation talk in Shin (again correct me if I'm wrong), she even admitted that 3I would had happen no matter what Shinji did.

Konja7 wrote:The thing is there are some phrases that imply the Near Third Impact was the worst event humanity faced.

Kensuke: At that time, I didn't think the old man, who survived the Near Third Impact, would die like that in an accident.

Touji: We survived even the Near Third Impact. Have trust in our own luck and in Misato's Wille.

I think it's more that N3I affected them more because they were right next to it when it happened and it affected them more, since I really doubt that they stayed around Tokyo-3 after N3I leveled it, so 3I was probably a more "distant" even for them.

Shinji's VA mentioned in her interview that Shinji concluded all was his fault when Kaworu showed him the devastated scenery in 3.0

If this was a wrong conclusion, it would be pretty strange that isn't mentioned at some point in 3.0+1.0 (not even when Kensuke told him about the Third Impact stopped by Kaji).

ElMariachi wrote:As for Misato, I have the feeling that the VA played Misato in Q as if everything was Shinji's fault because A. I don't think that the VA knew the details of what happened back during the voicing of Q (I doubt that Anno told him anything, assuming that he himself was decided about it!) and B. because it goes well with Misato's feeling that it was Shinji's fault, probably because for her, if he didn't triggered N3I, ravaging Tokyo-3 and immobilizing EVA-01, WILLE would had a better shot at stopping 3I and Kaji's sacrifice wouldn't had been necessary. IIRC, in their reconciliation talk in Shin (again correct me if I'm wrong), she even admitted that 3I would had happen no matter what Shinji did.

No, Misato never mentioned the Third Impact in the reconciliation scene.

Misato mentioned that humans would be destroyed (by the Angels) if Shinji doesn't pilot the Eva 14 years ago. Maybe that's why you remember that.

ElMariachi wrote:I think it's more that N3I affected them more because they were right next to it when it happened and it affected them more, since I really doubt that they stayed around Tokyo-3 after N3I leveled it, so 3I was probably a more "distant" even for them.

The problem with this theory is that it will be pretty weird that an event affecting the land in the world and transforming people on Failures of Infinity would be a "distant" event.

That's why I see more likely that the Near Third Impact is the world changing event.

Zusuchan wrote:Well, in my view, I've seen a lot of people acting like they have seen the film they are so vehemently criticizing, so I'm not sure a lot of people have really managed to get "our opinions are obviously based off parts of the sum" across very well.

Better etiquette could go a long way. But I don't think anyone who has a negative view is saying they won't watch the film or anything, I think everyone is just as eager to see the film regardless, and realize that they haven't experienced a full appreciation whether it be negative or positive.

Zusuchan wrote:To put it really cruelly, I'm starting to think there's a certain amount of anti-intellectualism hidden beyond the whole idea that concrete opinions can be made on artworks without knowing the whole. *snip*.

Well I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that.

And couldn't you also say it's anti-intellectual to suspend analysis, even those that pertain to specific clips or dialog, so soon as it veers toward a critique? Analysis, speculation, debate, etc. can give you fuller appreciation of something even if you disagree with the conclusion. Personally I try to be exploratory even with things I just flat out dislike on an instinctive level, because I think there's value to leaving room for someone to at least agree with the finer points of an analysis, and maybe use the same points but to support their different conclusion, or persuade me to change my view or aspects of my view or vice verse.

And yes, there's way less worth to said analysis right now, but right now's all we've got. I think everyone, keen to what they've seen so far or not, would much prefer to be discussing the film with every element at hand.

ElMariachi wrote:

Nuclear Lunchbox#919770 wrote:There are some brief, low-context scenes of Misato saying goodbye to Kaji as he goes off to stop 3I actual. Other than that, not much (though Kaworu does appear in a Commander's uniform and there are some lines from him that allude to some 3I happenings.)

So from what I understand, Shinji's N3I didn't destroyed the world, but severely fucked over Tokyo-3 (which is when Midori's parents and Sakura and Toji's father died), then the "proper" 3I (probably the one that SEELE initially wanted to make) happens and is stopped by the nascent WILLE and Kaji's sacrifice.

That's interesting because it makes Sakura and Midori the latest in a long line of multiple generations victimized by association with Eva technology:


Really Old - Fuyutsuki and probably Dr. Katsuragi

Middle Aged - Gendo, Yui, Naoko, Kyoko

Thirtysomething, Children of the Really Old - Misato, Ritsuko, Kaji (we don't see his backstory though so who knows?)

Teens, Children of the Middle Aged - Asuka, Rei, Shinji, Kaworu (kinda), Touji (disarmed), Hikari (by proxy since she loves Touji)

Elementary School Kids - Sakura, Midori if she is about Sakura's age


When you think about it the whole thing is really sick and perverse. Everyone who gets deeply involved in Evangelion technology in any way has their life violently maimed somehow. It is almost Lovecraftian in it's bleakness and inevitability.

^^Yeah.

Shinji is dealing with crap left by Gendo and Yui, 43 year old Misato is, in her own world, "putting an end to her father's BS" since Rebuild!Dr. Katsuragi was apparently involved in drafting the Instrumentality plans, and as a whole, humanity is still dealing with the crap left behind by "the Ancients", their cosmic parents.

Hence the repeated mentions of 'original sin' or a sort of generational curse.

& at many points we see the people trying to avoid repeating/ make up for the mistakes of their forebears, but then the result is that Misato ends up too busy to take care of her son, and that Shinji accidentally ends up leaving Midori and Sakura without parents. It's no coincidence that Midori is like, this not super professional, emotional novice rookie - Shinji has essentially indirectly lead to the existence of more orphans like himself.

In the end Shinji gets rid of the EVAs that were both created (and now, inhabited) by his actual parents, as well as the tech humanity made relying on the previous civilization.

But it seems that at last Shinji did succeed at becoming a transitional person of sorts, though he struggled with repeating the old mistakes at first, he made it so that at least the Suzuhara baby will live free of humanity's cosmic baggage.

It is interesting that Shin (and NTE retroactively) seems way more focused on the generational aspect.

What I worry is that there's a possible naiveté at play in what Shin thinks is needed for a new generation to turn away from the mistakes of prior generations. It almost seems like it's saying, "things will start being good if everyone learns to just intend things to be good" or "understanding is all that's needed." From what I can tell, not much of anything concrete past that is demonstrated, even though it feels like it wants to be presenting such.

It's a pretty frequent critique of modern media that it's easier to portray problems with nuance than solutions, which seems like could end up typifying the difference in approach and subject matter between NGE and Shin.

Zizek for instance has a well-known statement where he says that while V for Vendetta is compelling, he wishes he could see what a theoretical V for Vendetta Pt. II would consist of, because popular media has failed to show a truly realized post-problem worldbuilding, what maintaining it entails or the difficulties therein; media often stops itself right at the point of toppling the despotic or at the founding of a utopia, but is hesitant to go beyond that, and so the overall state of media narratives seems to tip heavily in favor of a kind of fixation on what's bad instead of suggestions for what's good. To be more cynical, there's a kind of obsession with diagnosing problems and/or presenting short-term solutions or fixes, but that it's a kind of fodder in a pornographic sense because it functions as reassurance and wish fulfilment respectively, perhaps asserting itself as a serious statement but in practice functioning as titillation or gratification for the audience.

I think part of the problem is that a definite and specific exploration of what's needed to alter even a fictional society for the good would become inherently political, and requires a higher degree of politial insight and willingness to counter normative sentiment than media content creators are expected or encouraged to have or express.

Axx°N N. wrote:I think part of the problem is that a definite and specific exploration of what's needed to alter even a fictional society for the good becomes inherently political, and requires a higher degree of politial insight and willingness to counter normative sentiment than media content creators are expected or encouraged to have or express.

I don't think Shin tries to offer a solution to society problems.

I think it focuses on the emotional aspect of the characters and their struggles. That seems to be the focus of the story.


I guess that the happy and promising ending for Shinji in Shin is just happy way to say goodbye to the audience.


PS: I remember how disappointed and confused I was with the ambiguous and bleak ending of EoE, after all the suffering and hardships the characters had been through.

Konja7 wrote:I don't think Shin tries to offer a solution to society problems.

I think it focuses on the emotional aspect of the characters and their struggles. That seems to be the focus of the story.


I guess that the happy and promising ending for Shinji in Shin is just happy way to say goodbye to the audience.

I agree, but because of that I feel like elements such as the generational one specifically are kind of let down by that fact.

Axx°N N. wrote:

Konja7#919853 wrote:I don't think Shin tries to offer a solution to society problems.

I think it focuses on the emotional aspect of the characters and their struggles. That seems to be the focus of the story.


I guess that the happy and promising ending for Shinji in Shin is just happy way to say goodbye to the audience.

I agree, but because of that I feel like elements such as the generational one specifically are kind of let down by that fact.

And that's what made NGE so special : It was a product of its time which seemed to express the feelings of that era. It only could happen in the 90s.

NTE is....well, NTE.

Axx°N N. wrote:
Better etiquette could go a long way. But I don't think anyone who has a negative view is saying they won't watch the film or anything, I think everyone is just as eager to see the film regardless, and realize that they haven't experienced a full appreciation whether it be negative or positive.

I think the same-however, I still consider there to be a certain amount of "our opinions are already as valid as those of the people who've seen the film." Agree to disagree, I guess.

Well I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that.

You don't have to argue for something to still unknowingly support it. And I'm not advocating for suspending analysis-apologies if I came across as saying that. (Then again, seeing as most people ignore my posts and continue on, it's not like I'd be succeeding anyway, would I?) I just consider the very notion that it's possible to engage in deep critical conversation about the pluses and minuses of something that one has not actually consumed simply because of some knowledge about the thing and parts of its sum something that inevitably gets close to a view that one does not actually need to truly consume artworks as long as one knows enough about them. Considering that I've hardly seen anyone consistently say stuff like "I think" and "In my view", while things like certainty in opinions are rather abundant makes it seem to me like one could look at this thread, at both the positive and negative receptions of a film that are rather certain and stated by people who have not actually seen it, and come away with a reasonable view that "consumption" is not necessary for "understanding".

Regardless of whether or not you think that you still need to watch Shin, there is nothing in this kind of behavior to say that anyone who criticizes NTE despite never having seen more than maybe one hour of the whole thing and a couple of critical videos, read the entire dialogue, seen some pictures and knowing the detailed plot outline etc., is wrong-as a matter of fact, even though it'd still be considered better to watch the thing, it'd still be fine to criticize it and act as if the criticisms are really valid. And, once again, this goes for the overly sure positive receptions too.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem if people were to say "Well, I haven't seen the film, but this comes off a bit weird/awesome" instead of "This is weird/awesome". It's not like I don't have questions about Mari's role or the meaning of the ending or Shinji seemingly choosing what's best for Asuka without asking her or what's up with the ending for Gendo and Yui or whatever. It's not like I like the fan service elements I can see, for that matter. I'm not someone who doesn't have questions. I'm just someone who thinks it's weird to not wait for the answers and think that what we have right now is enough to make up for them.

Zizek for instance has a well-known statement where he says that while V for Vendetta is compelling, he wishes he could see what a theoretical V for Vendetta Pt. II would consist of

OOC, did he talk about the book or the movie? I can agree if it's about the movie, but the comic ends very deliberately on an ambiguous note and, uh, a lonely man walking down a desolate motorway while chaos reigns-Moore explicitly wanted to make something that forces people to think and doesn't have easy-going answers (the fact that the comic is far more about anarchy and fascism than liberal democracy and Bush-era conservatism should make that clear). Even if it can be used for "pornographic titillation", it can only be done in the way as NGE can be used for the same-by misunderstanding or ignoring a big part of the work's themes.

Zusuchan wrote:Then again, seeing as most people ignore my posts and continue on, it's not like I'd be succeeding anyway, would I?

I appreciate your posts Zusuchan, I hope you don't feel I skimp on considering your viewpoint. As for the rest, I see what you mean, and I've actually felt somewhat worried that those looking back on these posts in the future will have more trouble than there should be in ascertaining context, as in, what exactly was informing the posts, who's seen what at what point, etc. I try to coach my posts with words like 'it seems' or 'I fear that' or 'maybe' or 'from what I can tell,' etc. but I have a hunch a lot avoid doing that just because it's more labor intensive, or they feel the context is obvious that it's their opinion, anyway, without having to repeat.

Zusuchan wrote:OOC, did he talk about the book or the movie? I can agree if it's about the movie, but the comic ends very deliberately on an ambiguous note and, uh, a lonely man walking down a desolate motorway while chaos reigns-Moore explicitly wanted to make something that forces people to think and doesn't have easy-going answers (the fact that the comic is far more about anarchy and fascism than liberal democracy and Bush-era conservatism should make that clear). Even if it can be used for "pornographic titillation", it can only be done in the way as NGE can be used for the same-by misunderstanding or ignoring a big part of the work's themes.

You're right on the money there and I really should have clarified, but yes, it was specifically in reference to the movie, his critiques of mass media are usually on film.

Konja7 wrote:I don't think Shin tries to offer a solution to society problems.

I think it focuses on the emotional aspect of the characters and their struggles. That seems to be the focus of the story.


I guess that the happy and promising ending for Shinji in Shin is just happy way to say goodbye to the audience.

Personally, that's the point that surprised me the most when I read the spoilers: from the way Q was going, I thought that Shin would distance itself from the focus on characters interactions and their emotions to concentrate on the bigger picture, on the people's struggle to continue to live in this new world and where will Shinji find his place in this great struggle. And well, it seems we get a bit of that, but Shin seems to keep the trend of being mainly about the characters and their feelings.

ElMariachi wrote:Personally, that's the point that surprised me the most when I read the spoilers: from the way Q was going, I thought that Shin would distance itself from the focus on characters interactions and their emotions to concentrate on the bigger picture, on the people's struggle to continue to live in this new world and where will Shinji find his place in this great struggle. And well, it seems we get a bit of that, but Shin seems to keep the trend of being mainly about the characters and their feelings.

Yeah. Character interactions and emotions continue to be the main point in Shin.


This is based on the spoilers, but I think Shin complement some aspects of Q.

In Q and Shin, the reparation of the world is sought by Shinji. However, the mindset of Shinji is what has really changed in these two movies.

In Q, Shinji's mentality is escape from the guilt and the pain. So, he is "punished" for that.

Instead, in Shin, Shinji accept the guilt and the pain, he just want to help.

At the end of the day the Mark 07 is just really like the Seventh Angel, it's all Yarare Mecha.
It looks like the Mk 07 isn't more than fodder, its only abilities are biting and large numbers, or there's something else?

Random thought -- Anno said he wanted Eva to become like Gundam; and at the end of Shin, after Shinji deleting all the Adamic stuff, that would still leave the normal-tech space capability and the Jet Alone tech. Put those together and you soon get Universal Century. Perhaps he did not think this through.