What would you change about Evangelion?

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BernardoCairo
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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:50 pm

Zusuchan wrote:I doubt that he would have ever gotten near to his EoE actions if he had had something resembling a happier life.

Most likely. That said, in history there is no "what if". Shinji abused Asuka. Did it consume him afterwards? Sure. However, I'm not going to overlook his actions because of it. Do you remember when I mentioned some moments in which Asuka was nice to the people around her and concluded that, underneath all her insecurities and traumas, there is a cool person? Well, I think the same about Shinji. Yet, it's impossible for me to gloss over what he did. In fact, I believe that we should all antagonize it. By the way, I'm not saying this because I care about the moral implications of fictional characters' actions. Instead, it’s because that scene's general reception is a picture of our reality.
We live in a sexist society in which women are expected to be nice and receptive all the time (despite having their own problems to overcome). Otherwise, they are liable to be raped. You would be surprised at sheer amount people I've seen arguing that Asuka deserved to be abused and that Shinji "took it easy" on her. Ikari actively locked Asuka's room and masturbated to her comatose body, as if she was an object. He has completely dehumanized his own friend and many people are willing to ignore it. That's crazy to me! Again, I don't think it's fair to see him as a monster (the guy had a hard life, to say the least). That said, I won't treat him like a toddler either. Now, can he be forgiven? Well, as I said before, that's up to Asuka (she was the victim). As a mere spectator, all I can do is watch the scene and reflect on it. In retrospect, this is an extremely important segment for the movie's themes (as I elaborated here: https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20593/Can-Shinji-be-forgiven-for-fapping-to-comatose-Asuka/#p909945)
By the way, Zusuchan, don't think I'm talking about you (or anyone here). I'm commenting on a position that I observed in several areas of the fanbase, but not on this particular site.

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You wrote a great analysis on Shinji and Asuka's bond! I agree with pretty much everything you said.
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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:50 pm

Well, I found the figures on the characters' heights that I was looking for, and it turns out they're only 145 cm tall. Holy crap, that's short. An average Japanese 14 year old in real life (165 cm) would be a full head taller than them. Yeah, that should definitely be changed.
Last edited by BusterMachine4 on Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby Lavinius » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:04 pm

Another thing- I'd remove Misato's "lust for revenge on the Angels" or make it make more sense.
For years I completely overlooked it until Reichu brought it to my attention simply because of how unpersuasive it is.
She's vitriolically emotionally involved with these aphasic things that didn't wake up until yesterday why, exactly? Just because they're related to her father's science project? Just because they're her half-siblings whom he loved more than her?
I think you need at least a scene of Misato seeing the Angels at 2I for me to buy it.

Oh, and I'd cut out the forced cattiness between Misato and Ritsuko that shows up pretty often around the action arc. If Ritsuko has a problem with Misato's plan, she should at least be able to suggest an alternative, instad of just going "your plan is dumb and you're crazy".
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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby baldur » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:53 am

View Original PostLavinius wrote:She's vitriolically emotionally involved with these aphasic things that didn't wake up until yesterday why, exactly? Just because they're related to her father's science project? Just because they're her half-siblings whom he loved more than her?

Adam's an Angel -> Adam kills her dad = Angel(s) killed her dad. Makes sense to me.

Also, doesn't she later confess that she's lying to/distracting herself by thinking she's doing this as revenge against the Angels, and that the real reason she joins NERV is more of a psychological thing about the contradictory feelings she has for her dad?

View Original PostLavinius wrote: Oh, and I'd cut out the forced cattiness between Misato and Ritsuko that shows up pretty often around the action arc. If Ritsuko has a problem with Misato's plan, she should at least be able to suggest an alternative, instad of just going "your plan is dumb and you're crazy".

Eh, I like how they're always at each other's throat. It's a fun dynamic, best friends who completely hate each other. Fits the narrative.

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby Lavinius » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:03 am

View Original Postbaldur wrote:Adam's an Angel -> Adam kills her dad = Angel(s) killed her dad. Makes sense to me.

Also, doesn't she later confess that she's lying to/distracting herself by thinking she's doing this as revenge against the Angels, and that the real reason she joins NERV is more of a psychological thing about the contradictory feelings she has for her dad?

Obviously, but it feels like someone wanting revenge on tornados or tsunamis or something- since that's all Misato seems to think of the Angels as. It's downright odd that it manifests in that way.

She does say something like that, but it's not really clear:
>I hated my father, but fell in love with someone just like him.
>I chose Nerv, intending to make a clean break with the past.
>But even that was an organization that Father used to belong to.
>In the end, I've been fooling myself by taking revenge against the Angels.

Anyway episode 10 and episode 12 had already spent considerable energy belaboring how disruptive Misato's hatred for the Angels is, and it's just not psychologically convincing to me.

Eh, I like how they're always at each other's throat. It's a fun dynamic, best friends who completely hate each other. Fits the narrative.

I agree completely, when it makes sense (the scene in episode 7 with Misato kicking the locker door while Ritsuko is burning the folder is marvelously sexy), but there are a number of times (in episode 12, at least) where Ritsuko is just furious at Misato's perfectly reasonable & common-sense plan and yet doesn't offer an alternative.
It's the probably the sort of thing that you only notice if you've seen the episodes so many times you're actively looking for plot holes.
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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby Zusuchan » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:35 am

baldur wrote:
Apologies if I misrepresented your position, I was also just speaking in terms of the larger conversation.

No worries. And I haven't thought you hate Shinji, no.

I completely agree that Shinji is a victim of his circumstances, as most everyone is.

I agree that Shinji is flawed and that he needs to grow as a person (him not acting on his perceptions is actually a problem, after all) or else he could very well become his father. I do also believe that there are personality traits of him that could lead to nasty things once they're properly "stimulated", I just don't think they're that prevalent in him for the majority of NGE-of course, if there would have been more Angels, they could have become that. I guess I'm just more sympathetic to him than Asuka, while you're the opposite. But it doesn't seem like we actually disagree with each other as much as we initially seemed to be.

BernardoCairo wrote:
Most likely. That said, in history there is no "what if". Shinji abused Asuka. Did it consume him afterwards? Sure. However, I'm not going to overlook his actions because of it. Do you remember when I mentioned some moments in which Asuka was nice to the people around her and concluded that, underneath all her insecurities and traumas, there is a cool person? Well, I think the same about Shinji. Yet, it's impossible for me to gloss over what he did. In fact, I believe that we should all antagonize it. By the way, I'm not saying this because I care about the moral implications of fictional characters' actions. Instead, it’s because that scene's general reception is a picture of our reality.

I know you said you're not talking about me or others on EGF in particular, but I do feel compelled to say I'm not advocating for overlooking Shinji's actions-I'm merely pointing out that Asuka was a bad person too and that Shinji's actions are understandable, which is not the same as excusable. Yes, he did a horrible thing, but that doesn't require us to antagonize him, it only requires us to realize how he came to commit such an act and yet still hold him accountable for it, even if it's understandable why he did it.

I don't agree with those who think Shinji did the right thing or anyone who spouts such sexist nonsense, but I don't want my criticisms of Shinji (which do exist even beyond the masturbation) to be bogged down by the way his character has been received by people whose views I vehemently disagree with. Such parts of the fanbase shouldn't probably be paid too much attention to, anyway-they mostly consist of blatantly escapist, self-congratulating people over-fixated on fictional characters used as a substitute for any real human connections.

Lavinius:If "revenge against the Angels" is simply a motive Misato uses to deny the reality of her connection with her father and her continuous hang-ups on him, then doesn't that make sense? IMO, she's genuinely angry at the Angels for having ruined her life and murdered her father, so she uses that as the reason for her joining Nerv, despite knowing deep down that the real reasons are a lot more complicated than that. Also, where do you get the idea that Misato considers the Angels as something like tornados? In ep.3, she pairs Shamshel to "the type women hate the most"-that appears a lot like giving an Angel more "animalistic" qualities than considering it as simply a force of nature.

EvaChero:I'm not sure why you don't consider yourself a "deep thinker"-you wrote a pretty good analysis of Asuka and Shinji. And it's not like we here are "deep thinkers" either-we're not discussing the meaning of life, but a cartoon, after all!

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:09 am

Zusuchan wrote:I don't want my criticisms of Shinji (which do exist even beyond the masturbation) to be bogged down by the way his character has been received by people whose views I vehemently disagree with.

Sure, me neither. It's obvious that the real problem here lies in what he did, not in how people perceived it. I wasn't talking about antagonizing Shinji's entire character, though. It's more about keeping a critical eye on what he has done, while also exposing your thoughts on it when necessary. I think it’s important not only to understand why he did it, but why it’s wrong (while also not treating him like a mere monster). People should be able to understand that this oddly realistic behavior is not "ok". Sometimes, when I think of guys who "romanticize" Shinji's actions, I feel uncomfortable. What would such a person do in real life? I don't know. That's why I feel the need to reinforce how disgusting Ikari's attitudes were.
This whole thing goes way beyond Evangelion. Sorry for derailing this thread a bit. As a matter of fact, I agree with you.
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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby Zusuchan » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:53 am

I agree with what you said here, too.

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby Lavinius » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:10 am

Shinji did it to be worthy of hatred. That's the whole point.
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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby baldur » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:32 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote: it's not like we here are "deep thinkers" either-we're not discussing the meaning of life, but a cartoon, after all!

A cartoon that occasionally touches on the meaning of life, to be fair. :kaworu_yknow:

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Re: What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby EvaChero » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:14 am

View Original Postbaldur wrote:
View Original PostZusuchan#919513 wrote: it's not like we here are "deep thinkers" either-we're not discussing the meaning of life, but a cartoon, after all!

A cartoon that occasionally touches on the meaning of life, to be fair. :kaworu_yknow:


I like the above - the infinite shades of grey keep it fresh, fleshing out the characters despite the limited run time.
Generally there is no "all bad" or "all good" but those types of characters are still prevalent in most media.
Eva is a fertile garden for thinking/pondering.
who doesn't want to kick back with Misato and have a few beers?


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