I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:36 pm

So, the song that plays while Asuka gets Bardiel'd. It's bad enough as it is - the contrast, all the lyrics about cute friendship while Shinji has to watch his friend possibly get killed, how it goes 'let's stay friends forever and ever' and then next time they meet they're enemies...

But you know what's a really evil bit of cultural context that flew over most of our heads?
...apparently that song is traditionally sung during school graduations.

Geddit? Because from this point onward the cute homeroom drama is super-duper over, and neither of them did go back to school.
So i guess they were really going for a brutally unsubtle 'childhood's end'/'lost innocence' sorta vibe.
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:18 pm

No one gets fucked harder than Asuka, no one.
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:02 pm

Everything about that scene was done to give us the biggest gut punch possible, both when you first saw it (with the dissonance between the cheerful thune and the horrific events happening in front of your eyes, culminating with Asuka's blood-curling scream) and in retrospect when the lyrics talk about how they won't see each other again for a long time and indeed, they won't meet until 14 years later, and that'll be in a fight against each other.
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby Blockio » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:40 pm

Ooh, that makes a ton of sense. I think the song still doesn't really work, the scale of events (unlike N3I later is still not massive enough for such disconnected music), but I can certainly appreciate it a lot more with that knowledge
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby BernardoCairo » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:26 pm

The battles against Unit 03. They share so many similarities, but they also evoke different feelings in me. I mean, in all of them I'm extremely perplexed both by Shinji's inertia and Gendo's indifference. However, other than that, their tone is completely different.
NTE's version is definitely the most horrific of the bunch. It makes me feel almost as bad as the end of Air and episode 22. It is so hard to digest my favorite character being absolutely slaughtered while that "creepy music" plays in the background. It is unbearable for me to watch it (especially because it is a Shinji and Asuka moment).
Sadamoto's version always gets me emotional too, but in a much "quieter" and "milder" fashion. The last panel of volume 6 always makes me cry. The conversation between Shinji and Toji at stage 36, in particular, is what fuel this miserable fight.
Although being (by far) the best story overall, I do have to say that NGE's version of this particular situation is the one that makes me feel the least emotions. Don't get me wrong, it is an amazing sequence and episode 17 serves as a great build up to it. However, it didn't hit me as hard as its two counterparts.
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby Kendrix » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:56 pm

The problem that every subsequent adaptation would have to overcome is that we'd know it's coming. If it's exactly the same we'd be already used to it, so each version had to come up with an extra way to twist the knife. (which means that if you see each one for itself they got eviler)

In the manga they kill Touji off but more than that there's that heartwrenching conversation where Shinji's like "I'm sure it'll be fine" and then its not.

And in 2.0 it's basically the central third act twist, everything about the structure of the movie is build towards it as the moment where everything goes to hell. Right before that we get a glimpse of all the MCs being happier than we've ever seen them, and then, BAM. Everything goes to hell.
Cut to that ouch tastic parallel shot of Shinji leaving Misato's apartment.
We don't even appreciate how much its gone to hell until Q - and looking back, the Bardiel incident - or Shinji's reaction immediately afterwards - is the last point where tragedy could reasonably have been averted. Maybe if Shinji never quit and they'd ended up fighting Zeruel three-on-one, they could've defeated it without awakening EVA 01, but by the point Shinji decided to run back, it was essentially already too late
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby BernardoCairo » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:10 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:The problem that every subsequent adaptation would have to overcome is that we'd know it's coming. If it's exactly the same we'd be already used to it, so each version had to come up with an extra way to twist the knife. (which means that if you see each one for itself they got eviler).

Oh, yeah. I completely agree with you. Interestingly, this is one of the only sequences in the manga in which Sadamoto was able to pull this off masterfully. The only other example I can think of now is volume 4 (merging elements from episodes 8 and 9 into a single story was a genius idea and gave him more time to develop Shinji and Asuka's relationship a bit further).
Anyway, back on topic. I believe that Neon Genesis Evangelion's version of the fight stands out in one particular area: its aftermath. To put in words, episode 19 is simply amazing. Characters have more time to assimilate what just happened and react accordingly. My favorite moments must be the ones in which Toji is at the hospital with Hikari. It evokes a mix of positive and negative feelings in me. It is authentic.
While I'm a fan of what happens at the last bit of HA (as you pointed out, it has its merits), I prefer the original series in this instance. Even with all the small nuances, there is one element that every version seems to excel in: raising the stakes. No matter how you look at it, the fight against Unit 03 was the "beginning of the end" for Shinji.
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:14 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:We don't even appreciate how much its gone to hell until Q - and looking back, the Bardiel incident - or Shinji's reaction immediately afterwards - is the last point where tragedy could reasonably have been averted. Maybe if Shinji never quit and they'd ended up fighting Zeruel three-on-one, they could've defeated it without awakening EVA 01, but by the point Shinji decided to run back, it was essentially already too late
Honestly its interesting how many decision points lead to the Bardiel situation happening the way it does in Rebuild.

Like had Asuka accepted Rei's dinner invitation, that could have changed a lot too.

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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:02 am

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:The battles against Unit 03. They share so many similarities, but they also evoke different feelings in me. I mean, in all of them I'm extremely perplexed both by Shinji's inertia and Gendo's indifference. However, other than that, their tone is completely different.
NTE's version is definitely the most horrific of the bunch. It makes me feel almost as bad as the end of Air and episode 22. It is so hard to digest my favorite character being absolutely slaughtered while that "creepy music" plays in the background. It is unbearable for me to watch it (especially because it is a Shinji and Asuka moment).
Sadamoto's version always gets me emotional too, but in a much "quieter" and "milder" fashion. The last panel of volume 6 always makes me cry. The conversation between Shinji and Toji at stage 36, in particular, is what fuel this miserable fight.
Although being (by far) the best story overall, I do have to say that NGE's version of this particular situation is the one that makes me feel the least emotions. Don't get me wrong, it is an amazing sequence and episode 17 serves as a great build up to it. However, it didn't hit me as hard as its two counterparts.

I think what makes the manga and NTE versions hit much harder than in NGE is that in the formers, Shinji knows who's inside EVA-03 (in NGE no one told him that it was Toji), so his anguish and panic is much more visceral as he know that one of his close friends is trapped inside and that his father is outright ordering him to kill them.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:We don't even appreciate how much its gone to hell until Q - and looking back, the Bardiel incident - or Shinji's reaction immediately afterwards - is the last point where tragedy could reasonably have been averted. Maybe if Shinji never quit and they'd ended up fighting Zeruel three-on-one, they could've defeated it without awakening EVA 01, but by the point Shinji decided to run back, it was essentially already too late

Even in that golden scenario that wouldn't had ended well: Mark.06 was about to be deployed and Gendo needed to have EVA-01 awaken before its arriving, so he probably would had done everything to make sure that Shinji awakes 01 before Kaworu arrives, and we know since 1.0 that they have brainwashing technology, that they are willing to use it on Shinji if he strays too much from the path planned by Gendo and Fuyu, and as the latter reveals in Q, they already used it on Shinji when he saw Yui's contact experiment.

And that's the real tragedy of Shinji's situation in NTE: there was no winning situation for him :
  • Had he left in 1.0 or the beginning of 2.0? Gendo would had him kidnapped and brainwashed to make him go back and awake 01 when needed
  • Had he left for good in 2.0 after the 9th Angel disaster? It's Yui who intervened and refuses to activate with a Dummy Plug, letting Rei and Mari fending off Zeruel alone, losing, and all the NERV staff would had been massacred by him before Kaworu's arrival. (which would mean that WILLE's rebellion would had probably failed)
  • Had the fight against the 9th Angel gone well, Asuka saved (even if out of commission for the time being) and him, Rei and Mari fought Zeruel together? Still not good for Gendo's plan which needed Shinji to awake 01 against that Angel, so he would had made sure that Shinji does it, either by manipulation or brainwashing
The poor boy was screwed from the start, in fact he was screwed his entire life, either by his father or his mother.


View Original PostThe Killer of Heroes wrote:Honestly its interesting how many decision points lead to the Bardiel situation happening the way it does in Rebuild.

Like had Asuka accepted Rei's dinner invitation, that could have changed a lot too.

It could go both ways: either Gendo still tells Shinji to destroy the enemy, since Rei' soul can still be salvaged and transferred to another body (if the soul mechanism around Rei works the same as in NGE), or he'll try to have her saved and will tell Shinji that defeating the Angel is the only chance to save Rei. (which is what he should had say when it was Asuka inside, instead of being a jackass and telling his son to be a machine and go for the kill)
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:00 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I think what makes the manga and NTE versions hit much harder than in NGE is that in the formers, Shinji knows who's inside EVA-03 (in NGE no one told him that it was Toji), so his anguish and panic is much more visceral as he know that one of his close friends is trapped inside and that his father is outright ordering him to kill them.


I've always felt that there's some charm to the original version where Shinji doesn't know anything other than that it's probably some poor sop his own age.. For all that he could have done better, in a way it really speaks for Shinji that he doesn't want to make a sacrificial pawn even of a random stranger and a bit of that is lost when it's one of his besties whom he's got a personal stake in.

But I understand that that's not a trick you can do twice since half the audience would know already.

It's a real pity that Misato was knocked out at the time. There's a reason Gendo pays her salary.
She would have had better odds of wrangling Shinji into action (just 'cause she actually knows him), she's idealistic enough to not give up on Touji/Asuka as easily & most importantly she's always been the one to come up with the wacky creative last moment plans.

If anyone would have suggested something like "Hey, pin it down & try to pull out the plug" it would've been her.
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby BernardoCairo » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:33 pm

Kendrix wrote:I've always felt that there's some charm to the original version where Shinji doesn't know anything other than that it's probably some poor sop his own age.

Yeah, I agree with you. However, this is setting that requires time to pull off (something that neither the manga nor the movie had). The fight against Unit 03 is only great because we saw episode 17 and the first half of 18 before it. I love how Toji's situation and Asuka's conversation with Hikari collide to create one cohesive theme to this segment. To put it into words, Shinji can be too naive and dense at times. Often, he doesn't actually realize what's in front of him. In true EVA fashion, what's happening in the "big picture" is also being translated into intimate character moments.
Anyway, this approach was great because it accomplished two things. Firstly, it made Shinji look like a believable human being. He is definitely not portrayed as some kind of "hero", but a scared teenager instead. Secondly, it handled Toji's big reveal as a pilot in an incredible way. What can I even say? Shinji's reaction to it is priceless. I personally love how it fits perfectly with Misato's meltdown.
That said, the aftermath of Unit 03's incident in HA is almost as disturbing as what we saw here. However, it's carried out by Shinji and Asuka's personal connection (which changes the tone of the whole situation).
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:15 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I've always felt that there's some charm to the original version where Shinji doesn't know anything other than that it's probably some poor sop his own age.. For all that he could have done better, in a way it really speaks for Shinji that he doesn't want to make a sacrificial pawn even of a random stranger and a bit of that is lost when it's one of his besties whom he's got a personal stake in.

But I understand that that's not a trick you can do twice since half the audience would know already.

And NTE masterfully played with that plot by first making us believe that Toji would be EVA-03's pilot like in NGE... and then we see Asuka en route to there, and there's a pit forming in your stomach as you realize what's going to happen, hoping that in this continuity things will go differently... and then they don't.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:It's a real pity that Misato was knocked out at the time. There's a reason Gendo pays her salary.
She would have had better odds of wrangling Shinji into action (just 'cause she actually knows him), she's idealistic enough to not give up on Touji/Asuka as easily & most importantly she's always been the one to come up with the wacky creative last moment plans.

If anyone would have suggested something like "Hey, pin it down & try to pull out the plug" it would've been her.

Of course, the Bardiel situation happened precisely because Misato was out of commission. If she was at the Command Center, she certainly wouldn't had failed to calm Shinji and explain to him that he was Asuka's best hope to come out of 03 safe and sound, and probably would had devised a strategy to pin down 03 so Shinji could extract its entry plug.

This scene is part of what I've come to think is one of the main themes of NTE: how trust and communication are the foundation of success and happy relationships, through all three movies, the heroes have been at their best in the fight and personally when they are truthful to each others and communicate, and at their worst when they let their assumptions and miscommunication (be it from their part or involuntary through outside manipulation) get the better of them (I haven't seen Shin yet, but I'm sure that this trend will continue there) :
  • In 1.0 at first, Shinji was extremely reluctant to pilot, constantly questioned Misato's motives and backsassing her, culminating of her slapping him, him leaving for one day and ultimately his reluctance to fight Ramiel a second time.
  • Then Misato told him why they were fighting by bringing him directly in front of Lilith and telling him that all the people that became his friends count on him to protect them (truth and communication), and Shinji fought Ramiel to the end, even after Gendo gave up and told him and Rei to fall back.
  • In 2.0 Asuka arrives and there's friction between her and Shinji, with fears that it'll impair their efficiency against the Angels, she assumed that he and Rei are only pilots because of favoritism from the Commander (ironically she was right, but not for the reasons she thought): assumptions threatens the team
  • The trio still work as a (not totally functional) team to defeat NTE!Sandalphon, and afterward Asuka and Shinji have their heartfelt talk in the bed ( :tongue: ) and came to realize they have much in common. From here things start going super good for everyone!
  • During the Ninth Angel battle, Gendo fails to make Shinji understand that stopping it is the only way to save Asuka, which probably would had motivated him to fight it back. Miscommunication (involuntary from Gendo's part due to being a jackass uncaring of anything beside his Plan) thus led to disaster.
  • At the end of the movie, Shinji pushes EVA-01 past its limits to save Rei, which turns out to have catastrophic consequences, because he didn't even know that he could make his Eva do that, nor what it would entail. Again, miscommunication led to disaster, but this time the miscommunication was completely intended from Gendo and Fuyu, as they needed Shinji to awake 01
  • Come Q, which is a giant domino disaster of miscommunication and assumptions. Ironically WILLE first tried to avoid miscommunication, by bringing Shinji up to date with everything that happened during the timeskip so he can be as savvy against neo-NERV and SEELE as they now are... but were brutally interrupted by Mark.09, right at the critical moment where Misato told him that Rei died but before talking about the clones, which made Shinji believe that she was bullshitting him and made him leave with "Rei". Here again miscommunication led to WILLE losing the Impact Trigger to the enemy. (it's ambiguous if Mark.09 attacking right at that moment was pure coincidence or if somehow Gendo had a way to monitor the Wunder to time exactly his attack)
  • Kaworu give him very impartial information about what happened to the world (yes, I still maintain that he was manipulating him) and that the spears were his only chance at redemption, without telling him what those spears would do and that once pulled out, it would start an unstoppable process (there's no way in hell he didn't know that EVA-13 was to be awakened with the 12th Angel), so when the spears turned out to be the wrong ones, Shinji was unable (and at this point, unwilling) to just stop. Add to that Shinji's assumption that WILLE was out to get him and Asuka's assumption that Shinji's just a dumb brat that can't be reasoned and should just be put down, and you end with the Fourth Impact disaster. Here it's a combination of voluntary (but benevolent) miscommunication from Kaworu with voluntary (and very malevolent) miscommunication from Gendo about what spears were down there and assumptions from both Shinji and Asuka about each others (that she's out to get him, blinded by hate, and that he can't be reasoned and thus isn't even worth the try, respectively) that were at play
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby Saint Eva » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:21 pm

Makes sense as school drama was over for Rei too as that was the last time Rei will attend school or meet any of them physically. Poor girl, she had just started to open up, maybe she could have made some new friends, oh well :sniffle: Wonder what she had been thinking while watching the Bardiel fight.

On topic of handling of Bardiel, there were two problems with the situation:

1. Shinji was only trained to kill."Aim at the core and shoot". He likely never had that kind of training for a rescue operation or go mano a mano with an Angel and pin it down. To even incapacitate a powerful angel like Bardiel, first he needed to break its neck. Seeing how quick, agile and ability to spawn multiple arms, it's doubtful Bardiel would have let Shinji get close to him.

2. Pulling the entry plug wouldn't have mattered, the plug was The Bardiel. It's some kinda fungus, it infected the Eva03 while it was hiding in the clouds. So even if Shinji somehow manages to pull out the entry plug, it's likely Bardiel could have spread his infection to a new Eva, while keeping entry plug as its core.

Had Misato been there, she would have probably told Shinji to retreat while they come up with a new strategy, likely involving a trap for Bardiel and safely quarantining it's entry plug. Maybe Rei would have been piloting Unit 02 in the second round.

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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:45 pm

View Original PostSaint Eva wrote:On topic of handling of Bardiel, there were two problems with the situation:

1. Shinji was only trained to kill."Aim at the core and shoot". He likely never had that kind of training for a rescue operation or go mano a mano with an Angel and pin it down. To even incapacitate a powerful angel like Bardiel, first he needed to break its neck. Seeing how quick, agile and ability to spawn multiple arms, it's doubtful Bardiel would have let Shinji get close to him.

Yeah, Shinji isn't a hand-to-hand fighter, it's very visible in his fight against Shamshel, the brawl against Zeruel inside the NERV base or even his fight against Asuka in Q; his moves is more reminiscent of a street brawl than a martial artist.
Contrast with Asuka's very choregraphic fight against Clockiel in Ha and her much more acrobatic fighting style against Shinji and Mark.09 in Q, it's clear that she had close-combat training. (especially during the timeskip when she had to fight against others Evas of all size and form)
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby Kendrix » Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:32 pm

I thought Shinji did pretty well there honestly, he's generally more successful at punching/stabbing that shooting.
While Asuka might still have won if her battery didn't run out at the worst moment, I think he held his own pretty well considering both the experience gap and that she was wayyy less reluctant about that fight than he was.
Likewise he was kicking Zeruel's ass until his battery ran out, though we can certainly fault him for forgetting all about the darn timer.

Since they're gonna spend that much time drawing every frame though I do like that they took care to really differentiate their movements.

1. Asuka's supposed to be the local Ace Pilot(TM) and been through some proper fight training (esp. the Captain Shikinami incarnation), so she's elegant, she does a lot of fancy jumps and kicks, she uses many different weapons etc. And post-timeskip she's obviously been through a heck of a lot of battles, too, if the super patched-up plugsuit is any indication.
2. Shinji completely bumbles his way through the prologue arc, barely surviving or following any coordinated plans, acting on pure instinct and getting completely thrashed on various opinions etc. because he probably didn't so much as play sports before they recruited him.
Eventually he sort of leaerns to fight by fighting, so of course it winds up looking like a street thug/barbarian kind of style
3. Mari is also supposed to be inexperienced, but unlike Shinji she's an adrenaline junkie. So she just attacks like crazy until something sticks. So of course she gets massively beat up both times.
I think you can see a really big difference after the timeskip here: She's much more level headed, much more used to it, and she's become very skilled at using weapons. Poor ReiQ didn't get a single scratch on her. (though you can see her same old fearlessness when she jumps into that multi-kilometer abyss) Instead of rushing in, she's doing ranged support most of the time; Probably because Asuka wanted to do the punching & would not part with that role.
4. Poor Rei is stuck with the rickety prototype so she doesn't rly get a designated showy cool moment. The closest would be the shield stunt in the angel of doom sequence. Though she got less screentime cuts than others like Asuka or Ritsuko so it would be spiled to complain that some of my fav moments didn't make it in, since her character was never really about the fighty stuff.
In the OG series she would, of course, always consistently volunteer for the most dangerous jobs or do the unglamorous support roles. (or be stuck with them 'cause the others have higher synch rates) - she does that sort of role in the Sahaquiel battle but there isn't really an emphasis upon it.
Though the Rebuilds really explored her feelings of trapped-ness in whole other ways beyond what the OG series did. And i don't (just) mean the aquarium scene but that bit in the elevator scene where she's like "Hey, you're lucky that you can quit & be happy in other ways if you wanted, I'm STUCK here."
I'd love me one big giant collage with the best Rei moments from both continuities.
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

ElMariachi
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Re: I just learned the evilest fact (Bardiel scene)

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:39 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I thought Shinji did pretty well there honestly, he's generally more successful at punching/stabbing that shooting.
While Asuka might still have won if her battery didn't run out at the worst moment, I think he held his own pretty well considering both the experience gap and that she was wayyy less reluctant about that fight than he was.
Likewise he was kicking Zeruel's ass until his battery ran out, though we can certainly fault him for forgetting all about the darn timer.

Well, at least there's still one thing both Shinji and Asuka share! :tongue:
Indeed Shinji fared well against Zeruel (although there wasn't much kung-fu he could had done in that cramped space!), but again Zeruel (and the Angels baring Kaworu) are like animals, they fight by instinct and low-key, instinctual tactics, things might be different if he fights a more intelligent and/or agile enemy: enter Bardiel, whose capabilities are basically an Eva on speed, and things go to hell real fast (added to that that he didn't wanted to fight it by fear of hurting Asuka)
As for the fight against Asuka in Q, the way I saw it, against Asuka, there were several times where he would had lost without the RS Hopper's automatic defense function, hell her opening blow with the explosion overhead EVA-13 and her plunging attack would had probably knocked 13 out (or at least severely damaged him) without the RS Hoppers.

For Mari, I think that she's supposed to had been trained too (she was way too comfortable piloting EVA-05 to be a rookie), it's just that she's such a berserker that all sense goes flying through the window, which is probably why she was changed to a support role, so she'll stop wrecking her Eva everytime! :lol:
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger


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