Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:29 pm

Heaven Piercing Man the 4chan's craziest threds about loop theory were the CM Cute Male of 2015 dedicated to Kaworu and Shinji. In these threads it is not known how, that spoiler about Armaros that I put in my post above was available although at that time an English translation of ANIMA was not yet available. In these threads some fans even discussed the possibility that ANIMA was the loop / world that happened after EOE and before Rebuilds. Funny rigth? ^_^

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:28 pm

View Original PostFXArmaros98 wrote:Well at least in the Panchiko game version of 2.0 Kaworu and Mark 06 arrive just a few seconds before Shinji activated the Pseudo-Evolution and defeated Zeruel saving everyone from the possibility of the Third Impact. Also in Evangelion Battlefields Kaworu appears during the period of 2.0 and has interactions with Shinji and other characters (note: Evangelion Battlefields has plots that do not connect with each other as if they were alternative universes that they do not interact and influence with each other, thus making it possible to have Kaworu in Tokyo III of 2.0 in one scenario while in other scenarios the plot follows a path more similar to the facts of the films, in a nutshell in this game some storylines are not in continuity between them making it a real big mess :tongue: )

Khara seems to had taken notice of all the alternate universes and time travel stuff the fans love to come up with and decided to milk it for all its worth! :lol:
I didn't saw the game, but I've read that Mark.06 is broken as fuck, with eyebeams and teleportation, that makes me really want to see it in action if there's a flashback in Shin!
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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:23 pm

Khara seems to had taken notice of all the alternate universes and time travel stuff the fans love to come up with and decided to milk it for all its worth!


Yes, it will be interesting to see if after 3.0 + 1.0 maybe Battlefields and Panchiko will continue, perhaps proposing alternative versions of 3.0 + 1.0 that will drive fans even more crazy with their theories :tongue:

I didn't saw the game, but I've read that Mark.06 is broken as fuck, with eyebeams and teleportation, that makes me really want to see it in action if there's a flashback in Shin!


In Panchiko the Mark 06 manifests the ability to use the same type of attack based on the AT-Field of the Evangelion 01 in Pseudo-Evolution, while in Battlefields he is not a real playable unit but only a Skin for Evangelion 13 (whose his final move if it Kaworu have as his pilot consists precisely in an attack with the Spear of Cassius started with a teleport). I think the eyes beam story you read is false information because both the Panchiko and Battlefields versions the Mark 06 doesn't manifest that power.

However if it can make you feel better in Battlefields the finishing move of Evangelion 13 if it has Shinji as a pilot consists in a real fatality with the Cassius's Spear: Shinji running against his opponent and he impales him the spear then the Evangelion 13 removes the spear causing a cut that goes from the stomach to the head with a nice river of blood as a result. Lol I hope that whoever pilots Evangelion 13 in 3.0 + 1.0 gets this from Shinji -o-;

I think I understand why this movie outside Japan will be called 3.0 + 1.0 and why it could even last more than 2 hours. Remember that End of Evangelion was as if it had split into 2 episodes (ep 25 "and ep26") which together formed a single film, and that after Shinji saw Evangelion 02 dismembered by MPEs the classic black screen that told us the title of the episode was apparead so it was like instead of watching a movie we were seeing 2 episodes together? Well I think a similar thing can happen in Shin Evangelion too, what I mean is that this film will actually be divided into 2 parts the part 1.0 and the part 3.0 which will both last more than an hour. So in a nutshell if EOE was like 2 episodes together forming one movie then I think Shin Evangelion could actually be 2 movies forming one just like Anno wanted to do in the beginning with 3.0.

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Re: Shin Eva - Official Social Media: 2.22 You Can (Not) Release

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Postby Orpheus388 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:40 am

Yea, this my thought too. Death and Rebirth were also two films in one, originally intending for Rebirth to be the full 90 minutes. I think the 3.0 half of Shin Eva will show up what happens after and before 3.33. Giving us flashbacks to set up 3.33s plot and then scenes that take place after and give us a conclusion to the Nerv v Willie storyline.

Then once the anime is wrapped up in some bombastic esoteric way Shinji wont be able to accept that like Rei chose to let herself die or something. And after the credits we'll get the 1.0 half of the movie which will be a live action half shot for shot remake of the first couple episodes of Evangelion. NGE is once upon a time, 1.0 is twice, so a third reprise of Eva's opening episodes would be Thrice Upon a Time, right? This live action reprise of Eva will also be without any Rei or Kaworu figures. Instead it will be a world where Shinji is forced to find those aspects of human relationships in the rest of the cast. Forcing this to be the most emotionally mature version of Shinji. Maybe there wont even be Eva's, or the Animator Expo film with a photo real Eva was a test for this.

That's my wild take on what the film will be. I'm pretty confident though. Theres gonna have to be some live action in there.
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Re: Shin Eva - Official Social Media: 2.22 You Can (Not) Release

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:50 am

That's my wild take on what the film will be. I'm pretty confident though. Theres gonna have to be some live action in there.

@ Orpheus388 Well it would be nice to see some of the Live Action that was discarded by EOE we just have to wait and see what Anno will surprise us with.

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Re: Shin Eva - Official Social Media: 2.22 You Can (Not) Release

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:38 pm

FXArmaros98 wrote:
I think I understand why this movie outside Japan will be called 3.0 + 1.0 and why it could even last more than 2 hours. Remember that End of Evangelion was as if it had split into 2 episodes (ep 25 "and ep26") which together formed a single film, and that after Shinji saw Evangelion 02 dismembered by MPEs the classic black screen that told us the title of the episode was apparead so it was like instead of watching a movie we were seeing 2 episodes together? Well I think a similar thing can happen in Shin Evangelion too, what I mean is that this film will actually be divided into 2 parts the part 1.0 and the part 3.0 which will both last more than an hour. So in a nutshell if EOE was like 2 episodes together forming one movie then I think Shin Evangelion could actually be 2 movies forming one just like Anno wanted to do in the beginning with 3.0.


I doubt it-NTE was always supposed to consist of four films, so I think Shin will show what the fourth film was always supposed to show. We already know the film already has "Avant" and "D" parts and so on, so two films together is already a baseless prediction based on those facts alone. The reason why Shin lasts more than two hours is probably because that turned out to be the best way to adequately tell the story, that's all. (And NTE in general has grown in runtime rather considerably).

As for why the English title has "3.0+1.0", then that's a good question, one that will probably be better answered by the film.

Edit: FXArmaros98, your post in the "Shin Eva-Official Social Media: 2.22 You Can (Not) Release" thread was brought here by Ursus (since it is better suited to this thread) and later deleted (since it was a copy-paste of something you'd already said here).

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:49 am

Continued from the thread about Mark 6, because one of the debaters felt it was more appropriate here:
View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:But it's not like they wouldn't make sense. They'd do, just from a symbolic standpoint. But they certainly aren't a random element thrown in just because.

Well, I'm not saying they have to be a random element. But I think if an intriguing mystery was resolved with "Sike, it was actually a symbol all along!", that would be just as bad as if it was completely random and pointless.
But I dunno about Rebuild being a story that makes sense. I'm still not sure how Shinji learned to play the piano in 10 seconds, how Eva-02 suddenly turns into a giant cat, or who at Nerv is operating those lights so dramatically (is there even anyone else at Neo Nerv HQ? Did Gendo order them to be as over the top as possible with the lights? lol).

Those are the only three examples you've managed to bring up so far of the Rebuilds being "surreal," and I don't really think they're enough. Not just because it's only three minor plot points in a whole 3 movie saga, but because they can easily be given an in-universe explanation. Here, I'll explain them right now:

Shinji learning the piano was actually part of a time compression montage (the abstract imagery being thrown over the screen would certainly imply that). He really took however long it normally takes to learn the piano, but since movies cut out unimportant stuff it only seemed like a few minutes.

Eva Unit 2 was designed to turn into a cat because its designers thought it might give it an edge in combat (Ritsuko pretty much explicitly says it in 2.0). The other Evas might have that feature, but if they don't then the designers must have decided that Evas turning into cats probably wasn't a good idea.

The reason the lights were so dramatic is because Fuyutsuki had actually prepared that presentation beforehand. He explicitly said that the real reason he called Shinji over was to tell him about his mother, so it would make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a concealed button to turn those lights on.

But I hope my point has been conveyed: three weird plot points that can be easily explained certainly doesn't mean that Rebuild is a "surreal" series, especially when the franchise has been pretty much cohesive except for those three things.
Like even the way Shinji pulls Rei out from Zeruel's core is something you'd probably never have seen in that form in the middle of NGE.

I know that it wouldn't have happened in NGE, but as Rebuild apologists love to say over and over, Rebuild isn't NGE. Expecting Rebuild's lore to function almost exactly like NGE is wrong. It's entirely possible for Unit 1's awakening to have an explanation, especially considering that there's still one movie left. You seem to be analyzing the Rebuilds as if 3.0 was the final movie, and that's leading you to some weird conclusions.

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:27 am

Eva Unit 2 was designed to turn into a cat because its designers thought it might give it an edge in combat (Ritsuko pretty much explicitly says it in 2.0). The other Evas might have that feature, but if they don't then the designers must have decided that Evas turning into cats probably wasn't a good idea.


I remember that Yamashita on his Twitter profile had also published a drawing of a discarded idea of ​​2.0 on the possible beast mode that Evangelion 04 could have had if instead of doing that end it would have appeared as a fighter Unit in the movie. If I remember correctly it should have had wings under his arms and therefore looked like some kind of bat or something.. Regarding the hypothesis that every Evangelion maybe could have a Beast Mode I don't think I can agree on this opinion. I think instead maybe every Evangelion if it has Shinji as a pilot (because maybe he is not human and he has still other power to prove that he doesn't know he has that maybe he will show us in the climax of 3.0 + 1.0 in the form of his violet eyes present at the end of the trailer accompanied by One Last Kiss) can reach Pseudo-Evolution and even the form of a Giant of Light if it absorbs the core of an Angel and something happens that directly affects Lilith. This would explain why we have had confirmation that Evangelion 13 is one of the Adams, while Eva 01 and Mark 06 have not yet been defined and confirmed as such.

The reason the lights were so dramatic is because Fuyutsuki had actually prepared that presentation beforehand. He explicitly said that the real reason he called Shinji over was to tell him about his mother, so it would make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a concealed button to turn those lights on.


Well it was quite implied that Fuyutsuki was trying to make it so dramatic to make Shinji feel upset that it would be easier to predict his actions and consequently manipulate him.

It's entirely possible for Unit 1's awakening to have an explanation, especially considering that there's still one movie left.


The fact that Shinji's eyes glowed red before Evangelion Unit 01 awakened proves that Shinji is indeed responsible for his awakening (perhaps the hypothesis that Evangelion 01 is one of the Adams whose soul has been replaced by that of Yui so that he could have it Shinji is real, and Shinji can use his divine powers only under certain conditions such as a surge of anger and despair), but I believe that the opening of the Guf's Door is not a relocatable event due to the fact that Shinji is selfish and in order to have Rei back and he was willing to let the world go to fuck, but that it was the consequence of the fact that the Evangelion Unit 01 was regaining its original powers. I am not saying that Shinji is not guilty, only that he is not guilty to the extreme extent that he has been accused by Wille and Kaworu himself for manipulating him.

I know that it wouldn't have happened in NGE, but as Rebuild apologists love to say over and over, Rebuild isn't NGE. Expecting Rebuild's lore to function almost exactly like NGE is wrong.


NGE had finished without giving us all the explanations that many wanted so I hope that at least in the last Rebuild movie we will given to us some clarity about things like the creation of the Evangelions, the SEELE and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Adams.I hope that with a duration of more than 2 hours of time available some background will be revealed but I am afraid with some questions such as the coffins on the moon, the creation of the spears, the true nature and true objectives of Kaworu remain unanswered.

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby EscapismIsBad » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:44 am

I understand the concept of the Beast Mode Type 02 which is very dumb and unpleasant, but everything starts to get more normal when I remember it isn't that farfetched at all in the new revamped Q EVA universe, we have: gigantic flying angel whales, EVAs entirely made of living core, headless 01 clones which at some point were alive (or still are), literal Adams turned into EVA and without AT FIELD, whatever the 4444 and other Neo Nerv/Seele EVAs are and ultimately an EVA fusioned with Jet Alone. Sure the last part of NTE is wild.
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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:26 pm

Sure the last part of NTE is wild.

@ EscapismIsBad I think Anno wanted to detach himself more and more from NGE and in doing so he perhaps mixed too much new and discarded ideas giving us the film that comes closest to the madness of ANIMA. Obviously this is just my opinion, I want to hope that in the writing of 3.0 + 1.0 Anno was emotionally stable enough to give us a film a little more logical and less in the style of Yamashita.

literal Adams turned into EVA and without AT FIELD


Well probably Evangelion 01 and Mark 06 are also Adams, maybe the fact that Evangelion 13 doesn't have an AT-Field is due to the fact that maybe his soul is actually in Nebuchadnezzar's Key and that Gendo intends to use it to sacrifice his soul to Evangelion 13 or that the soul of Evangelion 13 was in Kaworu's body (and consequently with his death the soul could be returned to its original place, this would explain why we have had that frame of Kaworu after his death and shortly in the trailer the Evangelion 13 has a crouching pose typical of Kaworu). Although from Mari's words it would seem that not having an AT-Field is something natural for the Adams, so therefore it could confirm that Evangelion Unit 01 is a clone of Lilith also in this series despite having taken the form of Giant of Light because maybe even Lilith could possibly have the ability to become a Giant of Light.

headless 01 clones which at some point were alive (or still are)


Failures of Infinite put into a sort of state of embernation are a parallelism with both ANIMA and Shin Godzilla:
SPOILER: Show
In ANIMA we find the Valley of the Human Body, a place where hundreds of decapitated stone statues lie which in reality are none other than the Evangelions defeated in a previous incarnation of the world by the Shinji / Evangelion Unit 01 which was destined to become Armaros in a free-for-all battle to conquer the Fruit of Life.
While at the end of Shin Godzilla, Godzilla was put into a state of hibernation just in time to prevent his humanoid-looking children reminiscent of the Giant God Warrios (or rather his fifth form) from starting to descend from its tail and begin not only to attack people but also to continue to evolve up to citing The Art of Shin Godzilla to be able to self-reproduce, to obtain regeneration capacities so great that they can grow another example of them even from the most small piece of their bodies if they are damaged and even be able to reach other planets, become immortal and achieve immortality and become God ( so therefore they too, like the Failures of Infinite, would have obtained a sort of Instrumentality and Fruit of Life.)
In addition, some people have pointed out a parallelism between Shin Godzilla and Rebuild Lilith, or that they are both creatures that in a state of hibernation will find themselves with their children stuck to their bodies: Lilith while she was impaled by the spear of Longinus had beings that they came out of the severed legs as Godzilla his fifth form just hatched on his tail when he was defeated.

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:50 pm

View Original PostEscapismIsBad wrote:I understand the concept of the Beast Mode Type 02 which is very dumb and unpleasant, but everything starts to get more normal when I remember it isn't that farfetched at all in the new revamped Q EVA universe, we have: gigantic flying angel whales, EVAs entirely made of living core, headless 01 clones which at some point were alive (or still are), literal Adams turned into EVA and without AT FIELD, whatever the 4444 and other Neo Nerv/Seele EVAs are and ultimately an EVA fusioned with Jet Alone. Sure the last part of NTE is wild.

Yeah the second half of NTE is pretty wild in term of technology displayed, and it adds a lot to the shock of how much the world had changed during Shinji's "death".
If you compare with EoE, the MP-Evas were pretty wild compared to what we saw until then: nigh-unkillable Evas with retractable wings and giant blades transforming into LoLs to be used in the starting ritual of Instrumentality, that was fucking mental, now add to that 14 extra years of R&D and desperation for SEELE as their plans had been massively derailed and for WILLE as the world is nigh-uninhabitable, and you ends up with the batshit insane Eva tech in Q, with giant winged whales as mobile fortresses, colonies of wild bird Evas, Eva drones patrolling space, said giant flying whale's core molded into a nigh-unkillable Eva, sealing pillars with purification functions, anti-AT-Field ammo...

The best is that the first part of NTE foreshadowed the post-timeskip crazy tech by showing their "prototypes": the Nemesis Series and EVA-04 drones are clearly the results of SEELE's experimentats with the Third Angel, and EVA-02's second Beast mode in Q is the Beast mode in 2.0 pushed even further.
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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:22 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Well, I'm not saying they have to be a random element. But I think if an intriguing mystery was resolved with "Sike, it was actually a symbol all along!", that would be just as bad as if it was completely random and pointless.

Well it's not that it would be resolved that way. In that case there just would be nothing to resolve. It's on the viewer if they expect an answer to an element that is on screen for such a short time and that isn't connected to the main story. The film doesn't go out of its way to build the coffins up like very important (at least I don't see it that way). Again, there could be some sort of follow-up or answer. But since there has been nothing after two other films I'm pretty confident in my interpretation so far (which could be compatible with other in-universe explanations too, it's visual meaning is still there).

An in-universe explanation could also be less interesting than the visual metaphor I think it is meant to be. Basically, I don't think a purely symbolic element is lesser in a film than a more literal one, and I don't think a film has to signal if it's either or the other. That would defeat the purpose of an interpretation by the viewers.

The only roadblock here is that we don't have the whole of Rebuild after all this time, so we can't know for sure, but I also think people shouldn't build up things as more than they are until we can see the whole. Sometimes that just leads to disappointment.




Those are the only three examples you've managed to bring up so far of the Rebuilds being "surreal," and I don't really think they're enough. Not just because it's only three minor plot points in a whole 3 movie saga,

Oh, there is totally more. The entire 3.0 film has a dream-like quality to it (foreshadowed by things in the prior films IMO). The extent to which the Earth is altered and how it looks, absurd new plot elements like the "Curse of Eva" which makes you not grow older (no sort of "scifi explanation" will make this any less weird, if there even is one, right now I see it as a symbol of immaturity), Eva-01 shooting laser beams has a much more cartoonish quality to it than anything an Eva did prior (introduced in 2.0), Shinji's reaction to finding out about the timeskip is (initially) rather subdued (he doesn't seem much more intimidated by the "time travel" than by moving to Misato's house in 1.0 at first) and you have weird scenery straight up out of a dream like the solitary piano standing at the bottom of the Eva cage (why did that even end up there lol, who put it there?).

However I'd say even with few examples, the moment a story goes into abstract territory, the illusion is broken.

And like I said 3.0 doesn't introduce these things. There's also the incredibly long, Citizen Kane-like table separating Gendo and Rei during their dinner scene in 2.0. A visual representation of their distance, but like...why would they sit like that lol.

but because they can easily be given an in-universe explanation. Here, I'll explain them right now:

I read your explanations, but don't you feel like you had to go out of your way to find explanations?
Like, doesn't it feel more natural to just accept them as the surreal stuff we see on-screen? If the movie is actively trying to construct a strange vision, isn't this kinda seeing something different than what the film is doing?

If any of these elements were meant to be read as something other than surreal, those explanations would have been included. And the piano scene definitely is not a montage. I keep seeing people bring that up, but that is not how a montage works. That scene happens in real time, and that definitely is a choice.


I know that it wouldn't have happened in NGE, but as Rebuild apologists love to say over and over, Rebuild isn't NGE. Expecting Rebuild's lore to function almost exactly like NGE is wrong.

I don't mean the lore, it's just that this super robot-esque sequence of the protagonist literally ripping a girl from deaths's grasp wouldn't have happened in NGE, nor would we have gotten a presentation as crazy as the one of that scene (Shinji being surrounded by rainbow colors, his skin being ripped off, etc.). There's already a shift in tone and presentation happening there.

You seem to be analyzing the Rebuilds as if 3.0 was the final movie, and that's leading you to some weird conclusions.

Like I said, it's perfectly possible that the coffins get an explanation. I'm just saying that they don't need it. I won't say anything definitive till I've seen the film, I just don't think either outcome is better or worse.

As for the rest, I'm pretty confident, yeah. Like there's nothing that could make 3.0 less weird than it is.

Avant1 was already pointing in that direction, cause what the hell was the thing they were fighting in Paris. Like there's no logical in-universe reason those Mark.04 Evas would have to march the over the top way they do. I can't really see Gendo being super concerned with the way his Eva units are gonna walk at their adversaries. It's presentation>suspension of disbelief.
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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:00 pm

I don't know, your ideas just seem very... anti-intellectual in a way. It feels like you're just trying to dismiss any attempt to understand the plot of this series by saying stuff like "it's not supposed to make sense, just think of it as a symbol." If the movie isn't supposed to make sense or be coherent, why even watch it? It feels like the "just a symbol" excuse is an easy way to shut down discussion about this series.

And you seem to be the only person who's walked away with this interpretation. Everyone else has seemingly interpreted the movies at mostly face value, and the result has been some pretty neat theories and speculation. You claim that the "nothing makes sense, it's all a symbol" thing is the intention of the creators, but there's nothing to prove it, and pretty much everyone disagrees with you.

And none of the other examples you've brought up really hold as examples of true surrealism. They all seem like classic examples of the "rule of cool": It's easier to accept weird, somewhat nonsensical plot points if the results are cool or interesting. This happens all the time, it's certainly not specific to Eva. In Power Rangers, for example, the ground explodes for no reason whenever the main characters transform. It doesn't make a lot of sense, and was clearly just done to be cool. But I certainly wouldn't call Power Rangers a surrealist show, and I wouldn't try to shut down any conversation about it just because some things don't make sense.

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:53 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:It feels like you're just trying to dismiss any attempt to understand the plot of this series by saying stuff like "it's not supposed to make sense, just think of it as a symbol." If the movie isn't supposed to make sense or be coherent, why even watch it?

Does the plot of Rebuild really hinge on things mostly fans have built up like those coffins or other (arguably) minor details? Again, I suspect the image some fans have of the films is pretty far from what Anno's priorities might be.

Usually the emphasis a cinematic work places on something indicates how important it actually is, either through time dedicated to it, visual prominence and stuff like that. Those coffins and other similar elements just never took center stage, similar to how to uncover the backstory of NGE you basically had to piece together stuff from the show no one would catch on their first view.

So I really don't think knowing how those coffins fit in has to be important to the plot (it could be). But the interpretation something has on a symbolic level is as, if not more important than any plot element in some films, I'd say Anno's works usually are works like that. So I'm not opposed to making sense of the films, I think it's the total opposite. I look at it from every angle, which means I have a satisfying interpretation for the coffins being there in the film. As for their use in the show as a plot device, there could always be some explanation we just don't learn about because it's not important for the plot. I don't think everything in a film has to be explained though. If we stripped films of everything that doesn't have a super defined purpose in relation to plot, they would look pretty empty. Rebuild would definitely look less exciting.

And you seem to be the only person who's walked away with this interpretation.

I dunno about that, but looking at what the majority does doesn't have to be right. 3.0 is apparently very divisive, but it's one of my favourite things from Evangelion. Most of us also don't speak Japanese, and probably that's the language most Eva fans speak.

You claim that the "nothing makes sense, it's all a symbol" thing is the intention of the creators, but there's nothing to prove it

I don't think that's the intention, symbols inherently have meaning, so things being symbolic doesn't mean they don't make sense. It just means they make sense in a differentbway than something concerned with creating a realistic fictional world. It's basically just another way of telling a story.
Like Dalí's paintings make sense, right? They are very abstract and weird, but that's really just how he chose to communicate his ideas. But the ideas are there.
It's also very liberating to be able to just do things. It's not like there's limits in fiction.

I also don't think Rebuild is completely bonkers or anything. Characters act in-character, their actions are those of real people and you can follow theor thoughts. It's the world they're in that's goimg crazy, maybe to emphasize how they are living in a nightmare world now.


The "proof" would be the films themselves. Though that's just my interpretation.


And none of the other examples you've brought up really hold as examples of true surrealism. They all seem like classic examples of the "rule of cool": It's easier to accept weird, somewhat nonsensical plot points if the results are cool or interesting. This happens all the time, it's certainly not specific to Eva. In Power Rangers, for example, the ground explodes for no reason whenever the main characters transform. It doesn't make a lot of sense, and was clearly just done to be cool. But I certainly wouldn't call Power Rangers a surrealist show, and I wouldn't try to shut down any conversation about it just because some things don't make sense.

The thing is, Power Rangers isn't a "serious" show you'd expect to be believable or close to real life. NGE basically taught us that's what Eva was. It was as real as possible, Angels were acknowledged as strange entities, and anything abstract that happened was explained through the action of the alien creatures or thinhs related to them.

Rebuild has undone it. It's just not the same to have an over the top presentation in something like Power Rangers, and have that surrounding Shinji and co. The reason being that Eva is serious and has realistic characters.
There's a reason there was such a reaction to sabertooth Eva-02. If that hadn't felt like a crazy element in Eva, it would have been shrugged off.

In any case, I think it makes sense to agree to disagree. Maybe with Shin Eva it will totally change all of this one way or the other.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:03 am

BusterMachine 4 pretty much said it.

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:Does the plot of Rebuild really hinge on things mostly fans have built up like those coffins or other (arguably) minor details? Again, I suspect the image some fans have of the films is pretty far from what Anno's priorities might be.


1. You can't prove that so-called "minor details" like the coffins are unimportant or minor in the first place, and you don't have a convincing argument about why these details are minor and/or irrelevant, the latter point being far more important. You're arguing based on feeling, rather than evidence.

2. Having seen the long history of how so-called "minor details" can create such how powerfully compelling theories - Reichu and the now-dormant Shin-Seiki being proven masters in the field - very long ago I came to realize that no detail in Evangelion is ever truly "minor" and that visual parallels and coincidences can make for very significant hints at information that is not directly spelled out to the audience, but these indirectly stated or hinted-at things are actually critically important in understanding the world and its key background events.

If you think that the Rebuild films are "proof" that symbols are "just symbols" you have not been paying attention. I don't fault you for not paying attention, but I do fault you for dismissing the arguments of those who do pay attention and seek to make sense of the extremely complex visuals and tidbits of information that we are given.

Unless you have an argument for why those details don't matter, or certain things are "just symbols", I suggest you stop dismissing these ideas and let people who wish to theorize have their fun.
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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:13 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Unless you have an argument for why those details don't matter, or certain things are "just symbols", I suggest you stop dismissing these ideas and let people who wish to theorize have their fun.

Gonna start with this because, sorry to be so blunt, but it straight up doesn't make sense.
Where did I tell anyone to not have fun, where did I dosmiss anything anyone said? lmao
If anything I am defending ALL perspectives should matter. Did you actually read my posts?

You can't prove that so-called "minor details" like the coffins are unimportant or minor in the first place, and you don't have a convincing argument about why these details are minor and/or irrelevant, the latter point being far more important. You're arguing based on feeling, rather than evidence.

This makes me feel even more like you didn't read my posts.
My point was that the coffins COULD end up not being important to the plot, and that that would be okay since they already play a symbolic role. I did not say that they will not.

I did say I suspect they will not, cinematic language is a thing and it sure didn't call attention to the coffins.

2. Having seen the long history of how so-called "minor details" can create such how powerfully compelling theories - Reichu and the now-dormant Shin-Seiki being proven masters in the field - very long ago I came to realize that no detail in Evangelion is ever truly "minor" and that visual parallels and coincidences can make for very significant hints at information that is not directly spelled out to the audience, but these indirectly stated or hinted-at things are actually critically important in understanding the world and its key background events.

Yeah but those aren't minor details. Those are genius use of film language. The thing is, when those parallels happen, they don't concern some random element of the shot. They'll be about the characters in focus, shot composition, etc.

I don't fault you for not paying attention

Yeah right, I'm not paying attention.
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt cause I enjoy you as a mod and EGF user. But tbh this really rubbed me the wrong way cause I feel like you are answering some caricature of me instead of anything I actually said.


Also the only theorizing being dismissed is clearly mine.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:01 am

You didn't explicitly say you wanted to shut down discussion, but your dismissive attitude towards my attempts to explain certain Rebuild plot points, plus the way that you keep claiming that Rebuild is completely symbolic despite admitting to having no evidence of it, certainly gave the impression that you're trying to shut down Rebuild theorizing. It may not have been your intention, but that's what it felt like.

If you want to believe that Rebuild is completely symbolic and that many plot points have no real meaning, fine, believe what you want to believe. But don't try to shut down discussion from people who actually want to theorize. The way that you've hijacked two theory threads by claiming that Eva fan theories are pointless feels unnecessarily combative, even if that's not your intention.

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:49 am

Sorry, but I just don't see it.
I have repeated in pretty much every post how the coffins or any other element in Rebuild might be explained in the last film. I have no problem with people coming up with theories either.
What was the source of this debate was the idea that the coffins need an explanation cause otherwise Anno failed as a writer. I think it's one thing to theorize, it's another to value a film based on what it chooses to adress. Like I said that just leads to disappointment often.

Nor do I see how what I did is not theorizing. That I'm looking at things from a meta level is just another angle to analyze from.

plus the way that you keep claiming that Rebuild is completely symbolic despite admitting to having no evidence of it

Not completely symbolic, but moreso than NGE.
And I said my evidence are the films themselves. It's just that like anything in art, that could be debated forever, and different people will probably see it differently.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
~('.'~) (~'.')~ Dancin Kirby

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:38 am

the coffins or any other element in Rebuild might be explained in the last film.


Well we just have to wait for its release, with more than 2 hours of time available some background such as the creation of the Evangelions, how the 2nd Impact began and how it ended (I'm curious to find out if and how much it is different from NGE) and the pilots' past may be revealed. I think that in the coffins on the Moon there could be the human bodies of the SEELE, but I am a bit afraid that instead many other questions remain unanswered.

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Re: Possibilities and theories for NTE

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Postby CharPenPen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:06 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:I don't know, your ideas just seem very... anti-intellectual in a way. It feels like you're just trying to dismiss any attempt to understand the plot of this series by saying stuff like "it's not supposed to make sense, just think of it as a symbol." If the movie isn't supposed to make sense or be coherent, why even watch it? It feels like the "just a symbol" excuse is an easy way to shut down discussion about this series.


I don't totally agree with Buster, but the idea that assessing a movie primarily based on visual language, rather than in-depth "lore", is anti-intellectual is wild to me.


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