I think he can be forgiven, on the grounds that he was detached from reality to some extent due to the previous day's trauma. I don't think the character would have done it in normal conditions at all.
I don't think he would have to be forgiven at all though.

BusterMachine4 wrote:You could have at least gone home before you did it!

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Resources:End_of_Evangelion_Screenplays

kuribo-04 wrote:I think he can be forgiven, on the grounds that he was detached from reality to some extent due to the previous day's trauma.

I agree with this interpretation. Also, thanks for replying to this o 0 o I wasn't expecting so many people to find this topic so thought provoking

BusterMachine4 wrote:
but maybe it could be conveyed in a way that isn't completely disgusting and sickening?

I know Derantor already pretty much said so, but I'll also say doing so would kind of defeat the point-what Shinji did was disgusting and sickening and showing it as it is is just being honest.

Derantor wrote:
So we got a few questions to answer about ourselves right there: why is his sexual assault seen as worthy of removal, while his attempt to kill her is not?

I think society and culture in general has conditioned people to be more conservative about sexual things, while violence is something we've grown to accept more. PG-13 action films can be quite violent, but more sexual themes and ideas immediately give a R rating. I think this societal "conditioning" means the hospital scene is more obviously horrifying than the kitchen scene for most people. Besides from that, I think the kitchen scene being in the middle of the film, instead of the shocking beginning, has also contributed to the horrors of the kitchen scene not being thought of as that disgusting when compared to the hospital scene.

zenigamesquad007 wrote:
Sorry, I'm new here :P

It's alright.

Derantor wrote:So we got a few questions to answer about ourselves right there: why is his sexual assault seen as worthy of removal, while his attempt to kill her is not?

Honestly, I wouldn't remove any of these scenes. Shinji and Asuka's relationship is one of EoE's central themes. In many ways, their bond is what defines the identity of the story and its visuals.
I would say that their interactions can be divided between three main segments: Shinji's masturbation, the conflict in the kitchen and their meeting on the beach. These sequences (along with the other three that they shared within Lilith) are complementary and serve as a guide line to the viewer. Removing one of them is tantamount to throwing away a piece of a big puzzle. This film was built in such a way that these scenes are simply essential.
The last clip in this movie is my favorite of the entire series. It is not only honest and intimate, but quiet. There is no need for dialogue here because we already know exactly what these two characters are all about. Shinji is using Asuka's body to prove his own existence, hurting her again. But she responds with kindness and acceptance. He cries, she comments on his actions and the film ends in "raw" fashion (leaving the viewer to dissect what just happened at his/her own pace). Simple and effective.
This was the scene that made me think: "Asuka is my favorite character. Her journey paid off in every way possible. She has matured naturally and I'm impressed with the way she was written." But you know what? This segment wouldn't have worked if we hadn't had all those other scenes before. It's simple as that, in my opinion.

As for the "moral elements", I completely agree with Zusuchan. So, I have nothing else to add.

I think it's important to understand this is a post-partial-apocalypse setting where I don't think there was a strong me-too movement that happened. If Human Instrumentality didn't happen and somebody found evidence of what Shinji did on a security camera, Shinji would be arrested and do time or community service just like anyone else.

As far as Shinji's psychology is concerned, he spent up to decade in a stubborn form of high-level depression and internally his mind is in a non-stop debate as to whether it's self-imposed and should grow some balls and step out of it (and thus he hates himself for not having done so all these years) or it's because he was abandoned by his parents, teachers, and society at large that he wasn't given the skills to succeed at life or at least learn to experience what it's like to feel wholesome. In a short span of a year or more he was given some form of a life and friends and started feeling normal finally, which was the thing he desired the most internally, only to be forced to completely destroy it along with his friends by the "higher ups", and I think Shinji reached a hyper-level of depression, neurosis, and panic by the end of the TV series. It's as if the moment he started feeling normal and clear headed, the worst happens and extended years and years of deep child/adolecent depression came back with a force. Before it was like he was painfully comfortable with being depressed for years and when something he secretly treasured the most was given to him and utterly destroyed in the palm of his hands, now Shinji is worse off than before and feels psychologically violated. Not to mention reality doesn't make any sense to a kid because of the Angels.

I think that would explain the masturbation scene. Now that he is having a real meltdown, he is also a 13 year old boy who has zero experience with his own labido/sexuality and no trusted parent/guardian/friend who he was able to ever talk to him about it, and what he did was completely out of the blue, even for him. He even says something like he feels so fucked up right after the deed is done. Birth of a bad habit or addiction to fight of depression.

Anyway I don't think I can answer the question.

I don’t think anyone would forgive Shinji so easily, especially on Asuka’s part. If he were to earn forgiveness, it would take a lot of time and effort. In my personal opinion, I don’t think Asuka could ever forgive him for what he did to her. Although, I think the way she caressed him at the end, she may be more or less willing to accept him now that she understands him.

As for forgiving others in general, I might be a bit hard on that part, usually depending on what the person did. Even I myself feel a little less deserving of forgiveness.

Yes on a list of most horrible shit a person can do to another this isn't that high. Especially since they are immature teenagers.

I'd imagine a grown-up Asuka would eventually be like "That was gross but he was only 14".

I think "that was gross, but I can understand why he did it considering his background and all the past events" is a better way to put it. And I think Shinji has to be willing to accept what he did was wrong. Furthermore, saying that masturbating directly over someone's body isn't that bad, because there are worse things to do to human beings is almost like saying rape isn't that bad, because the victim could have been tortured as well-there are always worse things to do to others and that means trying to lessen bad acts by arguing there are worse ones is kind of inherently a broken point.

I would like to point out a very miner detail that gets missed in this scene Asuka is aware of what's going on her heart rate monitor goes up and her eyes close, they are open in the series, it's very easy to miss I only caught this after so many viewings. Also, what Shinji did was a form of indecent exposure and in some countries is considered a crime and the problem with this is the victim going forward will fear it could happen again and that's the damage can bleed in to their daily lives.

People should watch sex education S2 as this happens to a woman in it and shows just how much it wrecks her daily life and causes trigger memories as he smiled at her then masturbated up against her jeans it later cripples her sex life as this image won't go away. It is currently one of the most realistic versions of this issue ever put to a screen as most series gloss over it or don't show the damage done to the victim.

I think though Asuka could forgive him but only years later, when they've both grown as people and had therapy, and she could always be wary of a repeat even if Shinji is beyond that, so I feel they'd have to be friends first for a long period of time to rebuild trust again before entering back in to a relationship.

Zusuchan wrote:I think "that was gross, but I can understand why he did it considering his background and all the past events" is a better way to put it. And I think Shinji has to be willing to accept what he did was wrong. Furthermore, saying that masturbating directly over someone's body isn't that bad, because there are worse things to do to human beings is almost like saying rape isn't that bad, because the victim could have been tortured as well-there are always worse things to do to others and that means trying to lessen bad acts by arguing there are worse ones is kind of inherently a broken point.

I meant that what Shinji did isn't as bad as yall making it sound when given the context of the situation. Yall talking about this like he did some monstrous thing... he didn't. If we had no context I'd humor the attitude yall have but we do have context. So yeah it was fuck up but it was not an evil thing, it was a mistake. There's a difference.

If I had a choice between the exact same thing that happens to Asuka vs say something common like for example my long-term girlfriend cheating on me or some ass hole randomly breaking into my house and wrecking everything I would choose the "close peer masturbating while I'm comotose but not touching me and it only happens one time and we are super young and we're both kinda crazy atm" option. Can think of tons and tons of mundane fuck up shit that is worst and is much closer to the level "OMG How can I ever forgive you" and despite that it's mundane stuff people forgive every day.

If yall think this on the level of unforgivable then well yall are lucky when it comes to life luck cause it ain't nowhere near the level of what is required to become unforgivable imo. Not trying to minimize but yall being unrealistic with the whole "it so bad". Yall Talking as if the kid was a potential rapist in the making and he didn't show immediate remorse within the next few minutes.

I feel like you're still really misunderstanding the point. Yeah, there are worse things and Shinji did immediately feel the need to regret what he did, but that doesn't make what he did right. It was a fucked-up, wrong and disgusting thing to do and the fact there are worse things to do doesn't mean what he did is somehow lesser, unless you want to argue it's lesser when compared to some of the other stuff. Which would be true, but once again a broken point. How bad actions are should be looked at by trying to decipher how they came to be and how bad they are, without feeling the need to point out there are worse potential courses of action which therefore somehow make one disgusting action not that bad, even though that's nothing else than a comparison.

I could take 20 of my favorite books and argue the last 10 aren't actually that good, because the first 10 are better. It's a broken exercise once again-it doesn't have a point to it, because it's comparing something with something bigger and therefore arguing the first something is inherently not that bad/good.

Yeah, Shinji isn't a horrible evil rapist in the making, just a deeply fucked-up and depressed kid who doesn't know what to do besides from reacting to impulses and make himself feel more like the horrible dipshit worthy of death he thinks he is, but that only makes his actions understandable, not necessarily forgivable.

I'm not misunderstanding the point. I was trying to explain that Your standard for forgiveness is too high and not make some utilitarian argument. Like dangerously high imo. But just an opinion, if people think they got to carry something like that with them forever then so be it, nothing is stopping them; free country and all that.

Another thing is that we don't see what Shinji is doing in the scene. When boys at his age start getting random erections it's not as if they just know how to jack-off right off the bat, but usually figure it out over time. Since we don't actually see what Shinji is doing we cannot assume he was full-on stroking it. He could have experienced a sudden surge of involuntary horniness and when he tried to adjust or hide his boner, he got sidetracked by the jolt of pleasure combined with his panic attack and absentmindedly started touching himself followed by a unintentional premature ejaculation all before he realized he should stop (notice how semen was on his palm and didn't fly through the air like a porno).

To add to points of how damaging this could be to Asuka, she is also at a confused age when it comes to sex and intimacy. We know from the final episodes of Eva she is internally re-experiencing a cycle of embarrassment due to having propositioned a 30 year old man (and failed) who is now dead, gone, or disappeared from her life (Kaji). She is also debating what is the point of even piloting now that her crush Kaji is gone and she is consistently failing at defeating Angels. And then to have a roommate, who she debates whether she really even likes or respects, decide to orgasm in front of her while she is dazed and vulnerable, it can be argued it will probably cripple her development toward sexual maturity by years to say the least due to her age. Some dark events in life aren't perceived as damaging to us until time passes and they really haunt us.

It's also impossible to size how much of a threat Shinji could become to Asuka after the fact. The event may have been accidental and not premeditated, but people who found that they unintentionally did something wrong to someone often start acting defensive or come up with lots of reasonings to excuse or humanize their behavior or decision, in some cases distorting their perceived reality because they fear the guilt or shame they'd carry for the rest of their lives. They may even go so far as to start hating the victim because the victim is living proof that they are a POS to society, a pain point that opens up a door to heightened level of self condemnation. I'm not sure if Shinji fits this stereotype, but for Asuka to be afraid of Shinji after the fact would be valid. By the end of EoE we see that Shinji's internalized self-hatred is now externalized with Asuka as a junction (choking scene), which is not too promising.

Again very hard question and almost no clear answer to me.

As a European, I am finding this discussion is strongly biased to what I perceive as a widespread US view of sex - strong on guilt and angst, often with a religious flavour.

People whose upbringing has been openly accepting of sex may well still get angst over their first relationships of course, but are far less likely to feel the guilt which could cause damage in the distant future - such damage is far more likely if the expectation of damage has been taught.

Even in Europe this was commonplace in the past. But I think that even Freud's views on sexuality should be seen as a study of how society can generate particular attitudes rather than thought of as describing something innate in humanity regardless of their situation.

Shinji's action may be seen as inappropriate or embarrassing - but that's what it mainly is. Any perception that it is an actual violation of Asuka (beyond being a bit of an insult, perhaps), comes in Asuka's mind from the background of her upbringing (hence also from the writer's view of her) - and also from the viewpoint of the commentators.

pwhodges wrote:As a European, I am finding this discussion is strongly biased to what I perceive as a widespread US view of sex - strong on guilt and angst, often with a religious flavour.

I do see this, but

Any perception that it is an actual violation of Asuka (beyond being a bit of an insult, perhaps), comes in Asuka's mind from the background of her upbringing (hence also from the writer's view of her) - and also from the viewpoint of the commentators.

I think it goes far beyond mere insult. Like I said earlier forgiveness shouldn't be out of the question.
But it is a non-consensual action, one anybody would feel creeped out and used by (if they find out). Only nuance to me being the context that led to it happening.

BusterMachine4 wrote:

Derantor#909943 wrote:To me, the more important questions revolve around why this was included in the first place. What is it saying about us, or rather, what can we learn about ourselves when analyzing at it?

This is the real question. I know people have come up with their own explanations as to why it was included, but I still don't really see why it was necessary for Anno to include the scene in the first place. I know that it's supposed to convey Shinji's broken mental state, but maybe it could be conveyed in a way that isn't completely disgusting and sickening? As it is, I wouldn't really mourn the scene's loss if it was cut. It just creates too much of a gross-out moment for first-time viewers, and is probably the main reason why people incorrectly interpret the movie as being a middle-finger to fans.

While it does serves to set the tone of the movie and show how far Shinji had sunk at this point, I always had the theory that this scene also served to give back the moral high ground to Asuka: since her mind rape against Arael, every time Shinji tried to reach her to help, she very violently rejected him, so had their final talk just before the start of Instrumentality happened without the fapping scene, where Shinji desperately ask for her help one last time only to be rejected, she would had looked like a jerk that continues to reject him. But with the fapping scene, she has a moral stand to reject to help him, which makes Shinji's retaliation by strangling her a new low point for him in the movie.

Well, I never really subscribed to the "Asuka is the voice of truth" interpretation of EoE. In my opinion, Asuka was right that Shinji is doing a lot wrong, but the Instrumentality scene also revealed a lot of her own issues: the reason she can't stand Shinji is because she sees in him a hidden aspect of her personality, and she has a very similar possessive attitude to Shinji: "If I can't have all of you, I don't want you." Asuka and Shinji have more similar problems than either one would like to admit. It's just that they responded to them in polar opposite ways, ways that make it pretty much impossible for them to get along.

Personal interpretation? She did, that's why she came back. I'm not talking about coming back to "reality", she chose that herself. I'm talking about choosing to be on the beach with him.

1 of 7 things could have occurred with some variants;

1) Shinji asked Lilith to bring Asuka to him, which Asuka would have had to consented to. Maybe one of them or both wanted a rematch, or to apologize, who knows.

2) Lilith was all like " Man shouldn't be alone" and once Asuka got out of Instrumentality knocked
her out and placed her on the beach.

3) Asuka woke up elsewhere and was led to the beach by Lilith (Which I like and think would make a great little fanfic. A walk with God and some casual, maybe deep conversation)

4) Shinji was the one that woke up or was led to the beach Asuka was on, being led there by someone, or something. (Doubt this one very much due to other evidence to contrary)

5) Both agreed to meet up at a specific location once they got out? (No fucking chance)

6) They both woke up elsewhere and coincidentally ended up on the beach, and/or maybe led or placed there. (Yeah, maybe have Shinji speak to God's other half on his journey,)

7) Asuka asked Lilith to take her to Shinji, "One More Final: I need you" has meaning. It's why Lilith was there when Shinji was asleep, it's not just an allusion to Adam waking up and Eve being there. Asuka would not have been able to find Shinji on her own. If Asuka hadn't wanted to be there she wouldn't have been, her body was not near that beach when she died. She wanted Shinji, she probably noted his absence in Instrumentality. If I recall, Shinji was alone in "reality" for a while, so most likely she wasn't there when he fell asleep, he seemed surprised to see she was there. Now, I don't know about you but I would not, repeat, would not, be around someone who did the things that Shinji did unless I forgave them, another reason she didn't fight back when he was strangling her, she knew he wouldn't kill her and she wouldn't have gone to him if he would, because she chose to live and got over the suicidal shit. (I choose this one obviously)

So yes, she forgave him.

Also, if you guys bitch about how you don't forgive him, fuck you, you weren't the victim. If the fictional character forgives the fictional character for their "crimes" against them they are forgiven, it's that simple.

sithsauron: I feel Shinji did masturbate to Asuka with full knowledge of what he was doing, largely due to the lack of hints to a different viewpoint and the fact that his actions during the hospital scene being an accident in any way take away from the message and impact of the scene in my view.

kuribo-04 wrote:
I think it goes far beyond mere insult. Like I said earlier forgiveness shouldn't be out of the question.
But it is a non-consensual action, one anybody would feel creeped out and used by (if they find out). Only nuance to me being the context that led to it happening.

I'm in agreement with kuribo here. Calling a person directly masturbating over someone else without their will something that barely goes beyond mere inappropriateness is exceedingly strange here. It's more than inappropriate, it's immoral and the only reason Shinji gets off lesser is due to the context behind his actions.

ChaddyManPrime wrote:
Also, if you guys bitch about how you don't forgive him, fuck you, you weren't the victim. If the fictional character forgives the fictional character for their "crimes" against them they are forgiven, it's that simple.

It seems a little interesting to take a rather ambiguous scene, provide your personal interpretation of why you think Asuka forgave Shinji using that scene as an example and then say "fuck you" to everyone who doesn't agree with your personal interpretation. Besides from that, fictional characters can forgive fictional characters for their crimes for no good reason other than "I didn't care you burned down a house full of kids", for a particularly horrifying example. I feel the audience needs to come upon their own conclusions and not rely too much on the actions of characters, who may not be morally understandable or acceptable.

Zusuchan: I don't think it would reduce the meaning or impact of the scene. In some sense the scene was to portray Shinji losing control of his emotions, so for him to suddenly start fondling his parts manically and accidentally orgasm on himself would better represents his fucked up state of mind than have a complete erection (which is unlikely as it was during a panic attack) and full-on stroke it like "yeah baby get some" which would be too out-of-scope of his personality. Sure Shinji was moaning and groaning briefly but there was no fapping noises going with it. Besides, If Shinji deliberately bust-a-nut, then what is the meaning and impact of the scene in that case? That Shinji was a dirtbag all along? Or maybe is becoming a future dirtbag...

And as far as viewpoints, the act is all off screen and by sound only, so the viewpoint left up to the viewer, in typical Anno fashion.