NTE characters and their relationships

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NTE characters and their relationships

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Postby Huagh » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:14 am

@BernardoCairo
I don’t know if the “Shinji Show” is entirely accurate. While I agree that the narrative is really hyper focused on him, partly because NTE are films and not episodes that they can focus on different characters, I think it does a good job with a lot of the major characters we think about when it comes to Eva.

I like all the little things in the first two films that build Misato and Shinji’s relationship in the first two films, such as how Misato holds Shinji’s hand when she shows him Lilith to show him what they are all fighting for at NERV. Things like that just make them seem a little closer than even the original.

This is also, without a doubt, my favorite version of Kaworu, as opposed to his brief, but other wise really good appearance in the original, and... well whatever Sadamato did in the manga. I like that NTE makes him actually a prominent character with his own goals from anything else, more than just being an angel.

I like how they gave somethings that were originally from Yui, and gave them to Gendo, like the Ikari last name and the SDAT. Just furthers the connection that Shinji is a little version of Gendo (added with Shinji’s new aggression and hard headedness).

And lastly, I really like what they did with Rei. Out of all the main characters, she probably had the least interesting story in the original, even though she has the soul of a powerful godlike being. I like that, like the Manga, Rei develops more human feelings faster than the original. And the fact that she sets up a dinner between Shinji and Gendo is probably the sweetest and nicest thing any one tried to do for, well, ANYONE in the whole franchise.

The only characters I can really say significantly got the bad end of the stick is Asuka, and Mari. I feel like we know the least about them, and there characterizations have been the worst, partly to do with the fact that they didn’t appear in the first movie like the other major characters, or had the luxury of being the secondary main character of one of the entire films. And with someone like Asuka, who had one of the best personal stories in the original series, it’s gonna leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouths. And when you add a new character, and leave her shrouded in mystery for two straight films and we still know nothing a lot about her, I think a lot of people are gonna not really come to accept the character. I still like Mari tho :).

Anyway, while I still prefer the OG series, I have grown to really like the NTE movies, and I am truly excited with this last movie. It feels like, at the very least, we’ll get to see more about this new Asuka, and everything leading up to this gives me the feeling that this will be a pretty good ending to the franchise as we now known it.

Edit: This thread has been split off from the "Shin Eva-New Trailer (12-24-20)" thread.
-Zusuchan

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Re: Shin Eva - New Trailer (12-24-20)

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:30 am

This is also, without a doubt, my favorite version of Kaworu, as opposed to his brief, but other wise really good appearance in the original, and... well whatever Sadamato did in the manga. I like that NTE makes him actually a prominent character with his own goals from anything else, more than just being an angel.
Huagh This Kaworu is such an enigmatic character, he suddenly appeared on the moon and named Shinji saying how much he wants to meet him. I like that he is such an ambiguous individual with his own particular mysterious agenda in which for some reason help Shinji to find happiness in his own words is at the top of the list. In the novels Evangelion ANIMA Kaworu manifests itself as a voice that only Shinji can hear, so I imagine that that vision of Kaworu that we saw in one of the trailers could play a similar role.But why Shinji can interact that this sort of ghostly Kaworu, because the soul of Kaworu is intropolated into Evangelion 13 and Shinji was in sync with him causing the achieved of spiritual bond (as the song Kindred Spirits suggests shortly before Kaworu took his own life) or because there really is something about Shinji that makes him similar to Rei and Kaworu? These are the types of questions that I ask myself thanks to which I appreciate the mystery of Kaworu in this saga.

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Postby ShinjiStranglesAsuka » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:33 am

@zuruchan
I mean I guess. I do appreciate the different approach, it's more appropriate for a movie format.

@haugh
We still have a movie left for Asuka and Mari so I'll hold off final judgement. I feel like the equivalent of episode 22 is coming for Asuka. Anno said he "accidentally" made Asuka a second protagonist in the series, and he's made comments about how he wanted to focus more on Rei and Kaworu in the movies. So expecting Asuka to hog screentime the way she did in the original is a bit misguided. I do lament that she didn't have just 1 or 2 more scenes in 2.0 though.

Agreed on Mari, she's cool. ^_^

I'm also surprised you feel that way about Qaworu. Just because he has more screentime doesn't mean he has anymore development compared to his original counterpart. If anything I feel like he did more in his 7 minutes of screentime in episode 24 than the 40 or so minutes he's afforded in the 3.0. He's also cooler in the original because Shinji was just somebody he happened to come across and took a liking to, rather than being somebody he planned his entire life around.

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Re: Shin Eva - New Trailer (12-24-20)

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:10 am

@Huagh
For me, the problem with the Rebuilds is not that they had bad ideas for the characters. Instead, it is the screen time that the said characters had to "shine". It's basically all over the place. Shinji gets a bunch of it and the rest of the cast scrambles for about five seconds on the spotlight (I'm using hyperbole, obviously). This is frustrating to me, because some of these people had a lot of potential to enrich the story in so many ways.
Let's start with Asuka. Well, in the original series, she was a protagonist (second only to Shinji). Now, here, I feel like she is playing a mere supporting role.
Don't get me wrong, I love Shikinami! She's not only badass, but also intriguing. Her uniqueness, when compared to Soryu, made her the most interesting character in NTE, in my opinion. But she just doesn't have enough screen time to efficiently develop her own journey within the movies and that's a shame.
Toji is another major disappointment. 1.0 made it feel like the writers were setting the stage for him to play a big role in the sequence. But then 2.0 came and he was just a mere comedy relief. In the manga, I literally cried when he died. Here, I was just surprised by how he simply vanished from the story (especially considering how important he was to Shinji's character in the original).
Mari is a complete waste. I think that she is so cool, but I can't really connect with her. She just doesn't have enough mundane scenes for that. Some may say that her "mysterious" nature is striking, but I disagree. I hope we can see more of it in 3.0 + 1.0!
Kaji and Ritsuko, some of the best characters from the original series, have their roles reduced to the absolute limit as well (especially Kaji, who simply disappears in 3.0). And Fuyutsuki loses a lot of his charm (because of the lack of episode 21).
Well, on Kaworu... I love how his character is a twist of the "monster of the week formula" in the original series (he subverts many elements of it, while maintaining some of its central ideas). Therefore, I also appreciate how he appeared in the last possible second and I think that he is a great antagonist (overall, the most interesting angel). The Rebuilds just threw all of this out of the window. But I'm not complaining, because that's just my personal preference.
I could go on and on, but you got it. Again, I LIKE the movies. It's just that I have some minor problems with them as well. Anyway, I understand why the writers cut corners. Just like you said, these are movies with a limit run time...
Last edited by BernardoCairo on Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:32 am

Well, on Kaworu... I love how his character is a twist of the "monster of the week formula" in the original series (he subverts many elements of it, while maintaining some of its central ideas). Therefore, I also appreciate how he appeared in the last possible second and I think that he is a great antagonist (overall, the most interesting angel). In the Rebuilds just threw all of this out of the window. But I'm not complaining, because that's just my personal preferences.
BernardoCairo It's a real pity that Kaworu in the original anime didn't have any more moments on screen. I seem to remember that in one of the original storyboards he interacted not only with Shinji but also with some girls from Shinji's school, in this first version of Kaworu's ep the "yaoi" between the 2 boys was much more explicit. As you said it is good that in the Rebuilds it has a bigger role.
Mari is a complete waste. I think that she is so cool, but I can't really connect with her. She just doesn't have enough mundane scenes for that. Some may say that its "mysterious" nature is striking, but I disagree. I hope we can see more of it in 3.0 + 1.0!
Mari was supposed to be the tsundere instead of Asuka according to the 2.0 storyboards, but it seems Anno himself refused to give her too many great roles. The fact that she knows so much about the Adams, the Instrumentality and the Evangelions almost to the level of Ritsuko combined with her knowledge of Shinji and her alleged interest (not romantic or physical to be clear) for the Puppy Boy gives me hope that she is hiding something that will make her a key character in 3.0 + 1.0.
Kaji and Ritsuko, some of the best characters from the original series, have their roles reduced to the absolute limit as well (especially Kaji, who simply disappears in 3.0)
The fact that Ritsuko does not have a physical relationship with Gendo has certainly negatively afflicted her role, while for Kaji I am sure that his disappearance will serve for something maybe motivate Shinji by reminding him of his promise to protect Misato because he could not, maybe he is simply died and this prompted Misato to become so cold as a captain.
Let's start with Asuka. Shikinami is such a cool take on the character! Not only being badass, but also intriguing. Her uniqueness, when compared to Soryu, made her the most interesting character in the films, in my opinion. But she just doesn't have the screen time to efficiently develop her own journey within the movies and that's a shame.
The German girl will have a lot of minutes in 3.0 + 1.0 (let's just hope she doesn't get devoured, even though I dislike her Shinji's mistreatment at the end of 3.0 I'd be sorry if she died).

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Re: Shin Eva - New Trailer (12-24-20)

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Postby Kendrix » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:46 pm

View Original PostFXArmaros98 wrote:Mari was supposed to be the tsundere instead of Asuka according to the 2.0 storyboards


That was one one the many wild outlandish ideas from the brainstorming phase tho, not really what they finally arrived at (a combination of heroic & eccentric)
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:56 pm

Kendrix I hope I'm not wrong but I think I remember that in those storyboards Mari would even have a conversation with Shinji similar to the one with Kaji in the watermelon field in ep19 and then she should have give a kiss to Shinji.

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Postby Huagh » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:01 pm

@ShinjiStranglesAsuka

I can see why you like Kaworu better in the OG series when you put it like that. He is a bit cooler in the OG, and the fact that him and Shinji were just a chance encounter does have a lot of charm. But I’m saying is that I like that he has his own plans and goals, and even plans, even if they do go wrong in the end. In the OG, he was another angel that was going to bring about destruction like all the other angels ultimately were. And you can say this is cheap from the writer, relying on knowledge of the previous entries, but I’m one of the people that think the OG series and the NTE are connected, so the fact that he wants to bring Shinji happiness finally is really cool to see. Because at this point, those two characters are connected like no others in the series, in fans minds and in series now, even if it was just by chance. That’s why I like the line “I really was born to meet you.” quite a bit.

@BernardoCairo

I do agree that it sucks that minor characters stories have been severely shortened and dampened, but it’s impossible to get everyone’s story out in just four movies. That’s why the only one’s I’m really disappointed in so far are Asuka and Mari, because they are suppose to be a part of the main cast. But I truly think, from every thing we seen so far for 3.0 + 1.0, that we will get some more from those two in particular. And, for what’s it worth, I do think that those minor characters serve the same function that they did in the OG series, although I do agree they are not as impactful. Kaji still gives advice to Shinji, and still has a connection to Misato.

Ritsuko still is friends and banters with Kaji and Misato, she still there to talk about the techno babble, and I’m not sure if the relationship with Gendo was ever said to not exist in this continuity. Because I think the fact that she is one of the main people actively against him in 3.0 is some really nice subtle development that she has moved on from him and NERV, although like I previously mentioned, this might be another case of relying on the previous series for this to have impact.

I think Toji and Shinji’s relationship is still pretty much the same as in the OG. Even if he wasn’t a part of the Eva 03 incident, there was still a nod to the fact that he might of met some type of grim fate, and Shinji feels responsible for it. I also like that rebuild is seemingly making Fuyutsuki for our more villainous.

I think the only character I can say for 100% shafted is poor Hikari. If I’m not mistaken, her crush on Toji is gone, she is not with the rest of the kids when they go to the aquarium, and Asuka doesn’t even want to be her friend in this continuity and her role as bestie got replaced with Mari.

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Postby JoelcrNeto » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:10 pm

FXArmaros98 wrote:I hope I'm not wrong but I think I remember that in those storyboards Mari would even have a conversation with Shinji similar to the one with Kaji in the watermelon field in ep19 and then she should have give a kiss to Shinji.

Would that be in the 2.0 CRC?

Enokido considered that she would usurp Asuka, saying "anta baka" to Shinji and even kissing him, but on Wiki it doesn't say exactly where these infos were taken from (maybe it lacks sources).
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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:20 pm

JoelcrNeto I think so, but forgive me I really don't remember very well. I think they were the same storyboards where Kaji was talking to Shinji about 2nd Impact but instead of the 4 Adams there was the classic light giant, and his blood stained the moon. Perhaps it was precisely in these storyboards that there were Asuke a Mari's ideas co-piloting the Eva 02 and also the horrifying unused scene of the 9th Angel taking the form of a little girl and speaking with Kaworu's voice stolen the face of Asuka. Jesus I'm really happy that we didn't see this Asuka being dismembered and devoured by the MPEs in EOE and then "gutted" by the Dummy System in 2.0 is more than enough for me.

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Postby JoelcrNeto » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:40 pm

Don't worry, I just curious about. Yeah, Asuka having her face ripped off by the 9th Angel is terrifying.
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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:47 pm

JoelcrNeto It was something horrible, but at the same time interesting, because I wonder why Asuka "lost an eye by getting a fraction of the 9th Angel in return" but instead Shinji who literally lost his face to recover Rei II did not suffer any permanent injury ?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:03 pm

@Huagh
I can see your point and I agree that Mari and, especially, Asuka are the most disappointing.
Honestly, I don't mind them not being the protagonists (as Soryu was in the original series). I mean, I would prefer them to be, but I accept that this is not the direction the movies chose to take. However, they are still very interesting. Therefore, I think they are being wasted on the plot. They could be so much more...
Anyway, I have some hopes that those two will be playing a big role in 3.0 + 1.0's story. Not only in fight scenes, but also in more grounded and emotional moments. As I said before, I'm open to this movie! We'll have to wait and see!
On the other characters, yeah. Technically, they are serving the same function as the original series. But, time just kills them for me. Again, it's understandable. However, that does not mean I have to enjoy it.
Toji and Kaji are the most "hurt", in my opinion. Their mundane interactions with Shinji and Misato, respectively, are very important for the development of said characters. Here, they are lacking.
Kaji basically had a movie to "shine" and that's it. I don't really care if his existence is important to the creation of Wille or if he is behind everything that's happening (as some fans may argue). I just want to see him on the screen, interacting with other characters and being fun to watch!
The same goes for Toji. The battle of Unit 03 is a very important moment for Shinji's character. But it wasn't just because Toji was hurt. Instead, it was because of their friendship that it was being built by several episodes at that point. It was about the “little moments” that they shared. Furthermore, it wasn't just about Shinji's perspective. It was about Toji's drama as well.
By the way, I'm not saying that taking him out of that battle was necessarily a bad idea (I actually love the "Shikinami approach" we saw in 2.0). But it just goes to show how little space he has in NTE.
On Hikari, I didn't even want to talk about her because it is actually embarrassing. She was "promoted" to a mere background character in these movies hahaha (that's a shame, honestly). Some people speculate that she, Toji and Kensuke will appear at 3.0 + 1.0, but I'm skeptical (for the sake of my sanity hahaha).
Again, I love these movies. I am not a "hater". But, like everything in life, there are certain aspects of them that I don't enjoy.

Oh, on these stryboards, they are amazing in my opinion. Of course, they are horrific. However, if they were implemented, it would really help to convey Shikinami's internal struggles (especially considering what the angel was supposed say to her). For me, it's a shame that the scene was cut.
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Re: Shin Eva - New Trailer (12-24-20)

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Postby Lacissal » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:24 pm

View Original PostJoelcrNeto wrote:Enokido considered that she would usurp Asuka, saying "anta baka" to Shinji and even kissing him, but on Wiki it doesn't say exactly where these infos were taken from (maybe it lacks sources).


I think the sources for this are in the 2.0 Complete Records Collection, the translation of the interviews are over on Gwern.

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Postby JoelcrNeto » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:38 pm

^
Yeah, I found the sources, Lacissal. I was looking on the Gwern just now, and I also found the discarded scene description that Mari kisses Shinji, it’s a memo by Enokido: https://www.gwern.net/docs/eva/2010-crc#memo-2

Edit: and I need to read all the CRC, but I need time to do so...
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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:39 pm

View Original PostFXArmaros98 wrote:JoelcrNeto It was something horrible, but at the same time interesting, because I wonder why Asuka "lost an eye by getting a fraction of the 9th Angel in return" but instead Shinji who literally lost his face to recover Rei II did not suffer any permanent injury ?
I understand that Shinji immediately regrown his face afterwards, and that certainly Anno could not present him reduced to us as Freddy Krueger and Deadpool in 3.0 in front of the members of the Wille and the paying spectators but because Asuka did not come out unscathed but he yes instead. . Another inconvenience for me is also Shinji's level of physical strength: in 2.0 he apparently tears off the input plug of the Eva 00 to go down into the core of the 10th Angel, but in Q we see him being only as strong as a normal kid . In theory he should be as strong as Asuka if not stronger (remember that he didn't get an infection from an angel but a real deification from what should be either an Adams or a clone of Lilith). In Q we see him using some sort of all anti-radiation and contamination suit, but after the 4th Impct he has no problem crossing the Barrier L. My personal response to these inconsistencies is that the DSS Chocker didn't just kill him if he triggered a new impact, but also to limit his possible superhuman physical attributes, by doing so he will pass from being a demi-god to just a non-lilin.
Oh, on these stryboards, they are amazing in my opinion. Of course, they are horrific. However, if they were implemented, it would really help to convey Shikinami's internal struggles (especially considering what the angel was supposed say to her). For me, it's a shame that the scene was cut.
BernardoCairo It would certainly have made it easier for everyone to understand what kind of psychological state Asuka was in between 2.0 and 3.0, but they probably wanted to avoid it becoming a film not suitable for everyone even if we still see flying arms, burned and skinned faces (Shinji in 10th Angel core) and guts.
discarded scene description that Mari kisses Shinji
Guys let's not forget that no one has kissed Shinji so far, I think maybe Mari could have a role similar to that of Misato from EOE instead of Asuka, because she seemed quite eager to take back the Puppy Boy. Call me crazy but Mari could kiss Shinji to motivate him without this event having any involvement in the song One Last Kiss.

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:29 pm

I'm not quite sure about that, bro. I just don't think Mari and Shinji have an emotional connection to justify such a scene (you know, they are basically strangers to each other). I can kinda see Asuka doing this, though. But I don't know.
I could be wrong. We will have to wait and see hahaha.
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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:43 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote: I can kinda see Asuka doing this, though. But I don't know.
I could be wrong. We will have to wait and see hahaha.
Asuka I think she is really too piss-off with Shinji to have physical contact (except of course hit him and grab him to drag him towards the Liliths). Then we will see what happens. A kiss with Mari could be a cute twist, just because Shinji knows a few things about Mari while she seems to know more than he does than anyone in the Wille. I mean she smelled him and then when she saw Eva 01 in Giant of Ligth's form said something like this: it's amazing I guess that was why he smelled in that way.God I hope it will not be Misato to kiss him, she is 42 years old and after what she did at least a punch or a slap from Shinji will be deserves it in my opinion, even if she acted like this for the good of humanity.I'm really curious to see how Asuka will behave in the half of movie, when they probably have to live together, Reichu in her blog had speculated that Asuka would go to visit him in his room / cell (?). Personally I believe that an important interaction between Shinji and Asuka could happen if he saved her from the MPEs making her a bit cold and bitter and more tsundere towards him.

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:08 pm

Reichu in her blog had speculated that Asuka would go to visit him in his room / cell (?). Personally I believe that an important interaction between Shinji and Asuka could happen if he saved her from the MPEs making her a bit cold and bitter and more tsundere towards him.

I am almost 100% sure that this will happen. In one of the trailers, we see that Asuka is going up some stairs and heading towards something that looks like a cell. I think that Shinji is there. She will probably have a talk with him before going on her "final" mission with Mari, or something.
Personally, I think that Asuka will chill out during this movie. As I said before (like, way before hahaha), I believe that she and Misato still care about Shinji. I think that they were just acting out of emotion in the last movie. I mean, this is the guy who almost destroyed the world, disappeared for 14 years and now he's back from nowhere. It's a lot to assimilate at the same time.
The movie will likely have a great section in which she is retrieving him back to base (with tons of interactions between the three "main" characters). In it, she will definitely be mad hahaha. But afterwards, when they have their last conversation, I think she'll be calmer (while also retaining some of her strong personality).
Last edited by BernardoCairo on Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FXArmaros98
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Re: Shin Eva - New Trailer (12-24-20)

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Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:18 pm

BernardoCairo Reichu in her blog exactly used that frame of that trailer.Asuka and Misato will both be very stressed with Shinji, I think Misato at the request of Ritsuko or another crew member to eliminate Shinji can simply answer: let's put him in quarantine and make sure he doesn't leave this ship anymore. I don't know what Asuka would do when they reach the ship. I guess she may even risk to finding him talking to Kaworu's ghost, but Kaworu will warn Shinji in time. Shinji is can be quiet when she arrives and she could say something like: do you never change baka gaki? Then I don't know what will happen after their conversation starts.


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